14 replies to this topic

[Prot]

So I'm starting this as a basic catch all for Black Legion players, including myself.

 

I have a bad habit of always using Abaddon. I have other bad habits from playing this game for decades... which include, but are not limited to: Cool characters (tougher in 9th), Terminators! (better in 9th?), and aggressive tactics (better in 9th?)

 

So let's band together under the banner of the Warmaster, and see what we can muster.

 

I have played two 9th edition test games with Black Legion. (More with other chaos, but let's leave that out.) So what I'd like to discuss is our gaming feedback, and our 'unit' feedback.

 

I am playing another game tonight. And due to all of my other 9th ed test games, I have decided to move away from some of my favourite elements of 8th (Vigilus Possessed, Daemon Engines, etc).... at least for the time being. And refocus on the following:

 

Battalion + Supreme  Command. (12 CP).

Abaddon (I believe) should be a legal choice for the Supreme Command.

 

Other units I feel I'm getting a grip on:

 

• - Helbrutes, (generally) and Helbrutes with Plasma Cannons (even more so- this is pre points bump for 9th though.) 
• - I'm still down on our troops, but will be trying pure Cultists as a tax.
• - Staying under 6 man squads wherever possible.
•      - Using smaller elite squads (Possessed= yes, over 5 models = no)
• - Heldrake. Maybe it's not a superstar, but it should be able to contest, prevent 'actions', and tie up tanks/Fly units. (Tau still rip through mine though.)
• - Terminators. Plasma (non-modified rolls of 1 blow up?) and body guards are necessary.
• - Oblits. It just makes sense to include with a very expensive Warlord in the mix.

 

The rest is up in the air, but tonight I will be trying some possessed, and a very basic list made to challenge table ownership. Wish me luck, we'll see how it goes!

[BrainFireBob]

Still using Council? What about Bringers?

Edited by BrainFireBob, 10 July 2020 - 09:26 PM.

[AceofCase]

I think I'm going to keep using 6+ sizes on several different units. Blasts are a little scary and cohesion might take some time to get used to, but the loss in efficacy when using what decent stratagems we have balances it out I think. We could see more opportunities to use Merciless Fighters as well if the overall meta shifts towards MSU and close combat.

[Hannibal]

We´re going to start a Crusaders Campaign. The one thing I want to run at the beginning is several Chaos Spawns. They did serve me well in 8th edition in a local meta full of Primaris and I think that they will contribute in this edition too. They are the perfect Primaris killers.

 

I will support them with Daemon Princes, obliterators and bikes. I also like to test run 2 Vindicators. Built mine with comboflamers which now might be a good idea.

 

Our standard units are soo bad, I simply refuse to play them. Just that mandatory one unit of CSM with a missle launcher to get a Patrol Detachment.

[Snazzy]

Seconding for Terminators better in 9th.  Our's, anyway.  Same base cost, cheaper combi-weapons, more emphasis on positioning.

 

Still not sure about how World Killers works in this edition.

[techsoldaten]

Struggling with questions about list design right now. Moving from a Black Legion gunline, trying to work out what needs to change.

 

Black Legion has a claim to being the most powerful CSM legion in 9th.

 

Objectives matter, and the World Killers Stratagem allows them to deny ObSec to your opponent's entire army. If you can disrupt their ability to score points for 2 turns, you can win a lot of games. We will probably not win many firefights, our strength seems to be screwing up the opponent better than they can screw us up.

 

Add to that Abaddon's auras. I really don't understand how morale immunity will work with the new coherency rules, but I imagine that's one phase we don't need to worry about. The reroll to hit aura is going to be useful in clearing out paths to objectives for troops.

 

The way I've been thinking about it:

 

- Abaddon

- 3x Havocs with Autocannons / Missile Launchers / Chaincannons

- Cultists of some amount...

- or CSMs

 

... will be the core of a disruption list. It will be a mobile firebase there to hold the center. The troops / guns don't need to last forever, it's okay that they're fragile. They are there to grab objectives and stop the opponent from getting any VPs.

 

Round that out with deepstrikers or daemon engines for contesting objectives on your opponent's half of the the board. Again, the goal is not to beat them in firefights, the goal is to get to turns 3 / 4, use World Killers, and stop them from getting points.

 

Could see a lot of games where Black Legion is up 30 points by turn 5 without killing much.

 

[Snazzy]

Black Legion did not fair well in the transition.  Soup is harder to pull off, so Legacy of Horus is less useful.  The loss of Specialist Detachments means no Field Commanders, and no 4 WLTs.  They didn't even errata Council of Traitors to include Haarken Worldclaimer the way they included Abaddon.

 

I'm really taken aback by the loss of the Vigilus detachments.  I ran a Bringers of Despair for the tail end of 8th to much delight.  Now, i think i might downgrade to only 5 Terminators, and swap to Combi-Meltas, instead of 10 Combi-Plasma.  Or, maybe 2 units of 5 Combi-Meltas.  I am increasingly thinking of going backwards in my approach to something like 10 man CSM squads and leaning heavily on Let The Galaxy Burn, and Veterans of the Long War.  Maybe even something crazy, like getting Predators or Vindicators off the shelf.  World Killers is fine and seems like it could be a game changer in this edition.  But, we need Troops by objectives  to make it work.  Embracing our CSMs and properly supporting them, instead of taking minimal units is the way go.  I'm less concerned with 10 man being veulnerable to Blast Weapons.  There aren't many that scare me at that size, except Plasmacannons.

[BrainFireBob]

I thought Vigilus formations were still valid

[Snazzy]

Supposedly not in tournament play.

[Hannibal]

Supposedly not in tournament play.

Why?

[techsoldaten]

Black Legion did not fair well in the transition.  Soup is harder to pull off, so Legacy of Horus is less useful.  The loss of Specialist Detachments means no Field Commanders, and no 4 WLTs.  They didn't even errata Council of Traitors to include Haarken Worldclaimer the way they included Abaddon.

 

I'm really taken aback by the loss of the Vigilus detachments.  I ran a Bringers of Despair for the tail end of 8th to much delight.  Now, i think i might downgrade to only 5 Terminators, and swap to Combi-Meltas, instead of 10 Combi-Plasma.  Or, maybe 2 units of 5 Combi-Meltas.  I am increasingly thinking of going backwards in my approach to something like 10 man CSM squads and leaning heavily on Let The Galaxy Burn, and Veterans of the Long War.  Maybe even something crazy, like getting Predators or Vindicators off the shelf.  World Killers is fine and seems like it could be a game changer in this edition.  But, we need Troops by objectives  to make it work.  Embracing our CSMs and properly supporting them, instead of taking minimal units is the way go.  I'm less concerned with 10 man being veulnerable to Blast Weapons.  There aren't many that scare me at that size, except Plasmacannons.

I don't know, Black Legion still seems to have some legs on it.

 

I've always said Abaddon is Black Legion's real Legion Trait. Favors large clusters of units benefiting from full rerolls to hit and morale immunity. Mobile fire bases will be important in 9th edition and, of any HQ in the game, he might be best equipped to lead them.

 

Beyond Abaddon, we still have the unique option of a Chainlord. In 8th edition, mine got a lot of work done. Given that Overwatch now costs CP, I imagine he will be a lot more effective. A Hammerlord with Indomitable, Veteran Raider or Soul Eater could also become a thing.

 

You're right about World Killers. Objectives matter more now, denying ObSec is significant and can swing games. Let the Galaxy Burn will be important in certain situations, I imagine backfield harassment will become a thing and this saves us from needing an additional Chaos Lord for buffs.

 

WRT Predators / Vindicators - I think Contemptors are the better option. They have more abilities for the points. Is there a reason you are thinking tanks over walkers?

 

Wrote up my thoughts on Black Legion list building in another thread. An optimal list would seem to be focused less on shoot / smash and more on objectives. Would love to know what you think.

 

http://www.bolterand...-2#entry5566667

Edited by techsoldaten, 20 July 2020 - 08:53 AM.

[Snazzy]

I sort of agree.  I do believe most of the hate against CSM troops is unwarranted.  We have the advantage of World Killers, but should not be fooled into thinking that is a justification to go small on Troops.

 

As to Predators and Vindicators.... it is mostly that i have the rules and models on hand.  Having viewed the Secondary objectives, however, i'm reconsidering the whole idea of high wound models.  There's just a lot to bear in mind with the edition change.

 

We have some strengths that i think we can lean into:

 

-Black Crusaders helping us get into position while dealing damage.

-Let The Galaxy Burn being so cheap and flexible.

-Lots of Combi-Weapons in an edition where to-hit penalties cap at +1.

-Our Blackstone Fortress stuff, where it is legal

 

(btw, not sure what the leak policy is, but have at https://imgur.com/a/...pH-bueyHxIOxZqI

[Snazzy]

Upon reflection, and use in a covert 9th game (social distance, all), Vindicators are not a bad choice.

 

I tend to run a lot of models at 2000 points, upwards of 90.  That creates a huge footprint.  A Vindicator, armed with a Combi-Plasma and Havoc Launcher provides good firepower with a manageable footprint.  I like that it is able to erase a 5 man Primaris squad while having some flexibility on other vehicles, and hordes.  I've considered a Combi-Flamer instead, but i like having something besides just a bolter to fire if i get caught in engagement range.

[Abaddon303]

I think infantry heavy weapons look really interesting this edition with the discount on heavy weapons for infantry, presumably due to the -1 to hit compared to vehicles now.
Obviously Havocs with the fact they ignore the -1 gives great value. But putting a Lascannon on a csm unit for only 15pts, if they are following Abaddon around it's still better than hitting on 3s!
They might not be super resilient but they're a cheap way of getting high powered shooting on the table

[Snazzy]

Thoughts on Obsidius Mallex?  I used him in place of a Chaos Lord recently, and while he isn't flashy, he's cheap.  102 for a Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol.  He can't get a Relic, but i assume a WLT, and count for Council of Traitors.

 

 

Further mussings on Servants of the Abyss... hard to run because only Obsidius Mallex and his 2 Black Legionnaires count as BL.  That is, unless you are not attached to Black Crusaders.