Thoughts on GW's recent decisions?

[RWJP]

The "Warhammer is for everyone" statement was totally necessary and frankly long overdue. Similarly, the act of distancing themselves from one certain video creator was also totally necessary and long overdue.

The BL author... Well, I don't think anyone has enough info to make a call. All the tweets related to it seem to be deleted, so we only have the author's word on what happened and nothing else.

The Indomitus launch was an abject failure. After GW's apology over the SoB Box, and all their comments about how many copies of Indomitus they had made, this situation simply shouldn't have happened. Regardless of whether it was down to dodgy trade accounts, failing to estimate demand, or just general greed, GW seriously need to review their practices for limited edition releases going forward. There should always be a limit of one per person, and that should be enforced by checking combinations of various details, such as name, telephone number, email address, postal address etc. Scalpers won't be able to get as much stock if they have to create a new name, email address, telephone number, bank account and postal address for every single individual order.

Alternatively, GW needs to turn these Limited Edition releases into a version of "Made to Order". Allow pre-orders for a set period of time (again only one per person) and then start manufacturing once you know how many you need.

[mughi3]

There are other BL writers that don’t hide their political views either on Twitter.

I’ve read his account of what happened, but we don’t know GW point of view and we’ll probably never will.

Not having read the actual tweets that were reported I don’t know what to think of it. It did seem that Thomas and GW had a conversation about it before the termination. ( from his tweets)

I also have to agree with Toxihobbit on the nature of what they’ll communicate on the Indomitus matter. For them it was a huge success. They made a lot of money in a very short time.

From what i understand it wasn't just that, he directly attacked a person who was also a GW SHAREHOLDER (rather he knew it or not at the time ). as a shareholder they contacted GW directly to lodge a complaint. well within their right since they are part owners of the company.  it was nothing more than damage control. could they have chosen a less severe punishment? possibly, but that's their call on a corporate level. 

 

 

 

 

The "Warhammer is for everyone" statement was totally necessary and frankly long overdue. Similarly, the act of distancing themselves from one certain video creator was also totally necessary and long overdue.

To state something everybody already understood to be true was not necessary  especially when they cap it with an insult..."were super tolerant, except for you" is a terrible business practice. alienating any customer should not be in the best interest of  a business that sells consumer goods. 

 

Also a ham fisted and legally inept claim of copyright on something they cannot copyright (and historically have not enforced)  because they dislike a particular person and act with malice towards that person specifically is never the right direction. just like with chapter house studios. if this went to court they would loose (but make every other fan content creators life hell in the process). i don't want to see that. i want to see content like astartes.

 

Don't alienate your customer base, don't piss off your fans. it is never a good idea to drive away the source of your income. disney learned this lesson the hard way with star wars. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by mughi3

[Redcomet]

The "Warhammer is for everyone" statement was totally necessary and frankly long overdue. Similarly, the act of distancing themselves from one certain video creator was also totally necessary and long overdue.

 

The BL author... Well, I don't think anyone has enough info to make a call. All the tweets related to it seem to be deleted, so we only have the author's word on what happened and nothing else.

 

The Indomitus launch was an abject failure. After GW's apology over the SoB Box, and all their comments about how many copies of Indomitus they had made, this situation simply shouldn't have happened. Regardless of whether it was down to dodgy trade accounts, failing to estimate demand, or just general greed, GW seriously need to review their practices for limited edition releases going forward. There should always be a limit of one per person, and that should be enforced by checking combinations of various details, such as name, telephone number, email address, postal address etc. Scalpers won't be able to get as much stock if they have to create a new name, email address, telephone number, bank account and postal address for every single individual order.

 

Alternatively, GW needs to turn these Limited Edition releases into a version of "Made to Order". Allow pre-orders for a set period of time (again only one per person) and then start manufacturing once you know how many you need.

My take on this Indomitus thing. They should keep any product that is limited to their webstore and own stores only. 1 per customer limit. 

 

Made to order would have a looooong time table though. Probably 6 months or more. There is a reason kickstarters often take a year to ship, even though all the design work is done,

[MrSpoon]

Swinging back to the OP, I believe the original question/statement is misleading regarding the GW statement and their actions regarding their trademark. The original post is neither a direct quote or does it include enough information to provide the full context of the events; my concern is that it could be misinterpreted by those who haven't been keeping up with current events. My personal opinion is that a topic with such a clear bias or unclear intent should either be removed by the moderators or be edited to include some form of fact check comment. 

 

In regards to the weekends events relating to Indomitus, it was a mess. It's sad that demand exceeded supply by such a great extent for such a key release. I just hope that scalpers get their comeuppance this week and GW have an announcement to nullify the profits they intend to make. If they do, I just feel sad for those who have panic purchased off of them already.

 

Luckily I managed to secure 2 copies from a very new LGS. There have been a few hiccups, and I'm concerned that GW may not supply as promised, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  I almost feel guilty selling the necron elements of the box for just under half the cost of the box given the current situation, but I will to make it affordable for myself. 

[Quantum]

The "Warhammer is for everyone" statement was totally necessary and frankly long overdue. Similarly, the act of distancing themselves from one certain video creator was also totally necessary and long overdue.

 

Haven't seen the video, but I disagree on both accounts. Of course WH40 is for everyone; GW has stated before that the setting is a canvas for other people to set their stories in, whatever that may be. If one of those stories contains genocide, persecution and slavery, well that is one interpretation (GW own interpretation, by the way. What? How else do you you describe the lot of people in the setting that have a slightly varying genome?). If some jackass thinks it is about white supremacy and whatnot, well, good luck to him. He just should not expect anyone to actually agree with him. 

 

That GW now apparently rushes to condemn him is giving him more credit than is necessary. Just ignore him. Or debate him if you want to put in the effort. Either way, it is one person making his opinions clear, and as such is as irrelevant as a individual guardsman on Armageddon.

 

But the mere fact that GW feels the need to step in tells me that GW has succumbed to the current that is going through Western civilization right now; the need to denounce heretics while loudly proclaiming oneself free of sin. You know what 'current' I am talking about.  

[Firedrake Cordova]

Also a ham fisted and legally inept claim of copyright on something they cannot copyright (and historically have not enforced)

They can (and have) trademark it (also, bear in mind that GW are an English company, and the English and US legal systems do have differences).

[Excessus]

The amount of boxes for Indomitus isn't really a recent decision by GW (those things have been in production for ages) and doesn't fit within the parameters of this topic imho, but feel free to start another topic to discuss that specific issue.

 

 

You know what 'current' I am talking about. 

 

Yeah, I do...let's just leave it there...
 

[Marshal Rohr]

To state something everybody already understood to be true was not necessary especially when they cap it with an insult..."were super tolerant, except for you" is a terrible business practice. alienating any customer should not be in the best interest of a business that sells consumer goods.

That isn’t what their statement said though. They didn’t single out any group of people in an “except for you” context. They said they don’t condone any form of prejudice, hatred, or abuse and will continue to make different characters that players can relate to. People keep characterizing the statement as a misstep or excluding a certain part of the fanbase and they didn’t do that at all, but that’s a projection or assumption that isn’t really backed up by the other decisions the company has made. The statement was simply ‘don’t be mean’ and ‘everyone is welcome unless you’re trying to push others out’. Similar to what Brother Tyler said in the original thread, condemning prejudice, hatred, and abuse should be a sentiment any healthy social community abides by. Tying the decision to release that statement with the clusterfluff of the Indomitus release isn’t indicative of larger mismanagement at GW because one was made by the community team and the other was made entirely by the sales and trade teams. That’s why I’m skeptical the statement and indomitus are symptoms of some kind of greater issue at GW.

 

 

Also, for anyone interested: Twitter has a feature that allows you to search posts about the Warhammer statement, Thomas Parrott’s firing, inclusivity, etc. the number of posts angry about indomitus being sold out are orders of magnitude more than Thomas’ firing which should be a solid, objective indicator of what the social media communities priorities are and it isn’t the culture wars.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Xenith]

GW's inclusivity statement is only controversial to those people who disagree with it.

 

The overwhelming evidence is that companies that cater for all and include all do better.

 

Nike stocks soared after they promoted equality. 

 

I havent seen anyone burning their armies like they burned coffee makers or shoes.

 

Believe it or not, totally selling out of Indomitus isnt a bad thing. What company is going to go under because their stock is in so high demand they cannot provide enough?

 

Stuff selling out immediately has a snowball effect. People rush to buy it because it might sell out. It happens constantly with GW. 

 

If GW has one issue, it's that they totally underestimate the desire for their product, and after 20 odd years with Kirby at the helm and flatlining share price, it's understandable, however the current situation is that, even despite share price doubling every year for the last 4 years, the hobby is still more popular than they can even imagine or predict.

 

GW will do fine. 

 

Anyway...this is a super unhealthy topic for a forum of frater and should be closed, locked, deleted, then the record of deletion deleted, then the grey knights called in for a quick mind-wipe, then a quick dust off with Grimnar, then looks of puzzlement as we forgot why we were fighting due to the mind-wipe, then some Fenrisian Oel and tales of battle and glory.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Xenith

[mughi3]

 

Also a ham fisted and legally inept claim of copyright on something they cannot copyright (and historically have not enforced)

They can (and have) trademark it (also, bear in mind that GW are an English company, and the English and US legal systems do have differences).

 

They CANNOT trademark "warhammer" alone  just like they cannot trademark "space marines" which is why they had to change the name to something they could copyright-adeptus astartes. 

 

Also if this case was brought it would be in Norway which has very strict copyright interpretations. 

 

 

 

That isn’t what their statement said though. They didn’t single out any group of people in an “except for you” context. They said they don’t condone any form of prejudice, hatred, or abuse

 

Except that is exactly what is implied in the final line, believe like us or get out. this position is completely bad for a retailer to take, especially when the goal posts for the definitions keep moving.  i have played 40K for 20 years with players from all backgrounds, orientations, ethinic groups etc... AND NOBODY CARED because we all loved playing 40K.  GW didn't need to release a PSA telling me that, then telling me if i disagree with a particular interpretation of social mores i should not play the game. that's not the reason they exist as a company 

Edited July 13, 2020 by mughi3

[Marshal Rohr]

YouTube is an American company so ultimately any action will be settled with them and they defer to companies in most cases. They don’t have to win a trademark case, just convince Youtube to freeze his channel unless he removes the content. That’s already been said by Bro T not the point of this thread though, best not to go down that road of discussion.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Personally I think the statement was fine and I will leave it at that.

 

As far as the box set is concerned, IMO they deserve a Covid pass as long as they mention that it sold faster than they could have hoped for and start to preview the next starter this week.

[Brother Kraskor]

The amount of boxes for Indomitus isn't really a recent decision by GW (those things have been in production for ages) and doesn't fit within the parameters of this topic imho, but feel free to start another topic to discuss that specific issue.

 

 

I started a topic yesterday or the day before which was discussing this, but it seems to have been deleted without trace - don't know if I did something wrong!

[Marshal Rohr]

Except that is exactly what is implied in the final line, believe like us or get out. this position is completely bad for a retailer to take, especially when the goal posts for the definitions keep moving. i have played 40K for 20 years with players from all backgrounds, orientations, ethinic groups etc... AND NOBODY CARED because we all loved playing 40K. GW didn't need to release a PSA telling me that, then telling me if i disagree with a particular interpretation of social mores i should not play the game. that's not the reason they exist as a company

I have yet to see anyone accurately and explicitly say what politics are unwelcome in the community. If they have released a manifesto since the statement, I’ve missed it. Until then, being mad about it or using it as an example of GW’s poor decision making seems like a projection. People are seeing what they want to see in that statement. There’s a lot of space between Mike Brooks and Tony Cottrell and neither has been repudiated or endorsed by Games Workshop. In fact, when FW did release an apology for Tony’s joke about Escher’s they didn’t excoriate him, they acknowledged it was a rude and denigrating joke and unprofessional. Then that was it. I don’t really see how anyone can characterize the statement as being anything but reaffirming what you yourself just pointed out about the community. They are *agreeing* with you.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Marshal Rohr

[Spacecow]

Also a ham fisted and legally inept claim of copyright on something they cannot copyright (and historically have not enforced) because they dislike a particular person and act with malice towards that person specifically is never the right direction.

This is not GW disliking a person. Or acting malicious towards them. Saying that is severely downplaying what actually occurred.

 

There have been multiple videos/ photos going round as proof how bad it was getting and what was going on for quite some time. I can really understand they don’t want their company / name / IP attached to that.

The fact they had to take this step should say enough about the severity of it really.

[WrathOfTheLion]

 

Also a ham fisted and legally inept claim of copyright on something they cannot copyright (and historically have not enforced) because they dislike a particular person and act with malice towards that person specifically is never the right direction.

This is not GW disliking a person. Or acting malicious towards them. Saying that is severely downplaying what actually occurred.

 

There have been multiple videos/ photos going round as proof how bad it was getting and what was going on for quite some time. I can really understand they don’t want their company / name / IP attached to that.

The fact they had to take this step should say enough about the severity of it really.

The point he is making is that they should not have taken that 'step'. Given the claim, if contested, it would likely have ended with them stripped of any right to the Warhammer trademark under US trademark law, where they claimed the violation under.

 

Edited to remove references to copyright, when it is trademark

Edited July 13, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Joe]

There are better hills to die on than "Games Workshop released a statement about inclusivity, and I don't like it."

[Marshal Loss]

 if you were expecting a written response from the company when the staff involved with publishing said content are spending time with their families or relaxing then you're being completely unreasonable.

 

I disagree; I don't think that's unreasonable in the slightest. This is one of the biggest releases in the history of their company, if not the biggest. As has been said elsewhere, all hands should have been on deck. This was not a normal occasion. They clearly had time to purge their social media pages of all evidence of Indomitus' release day over the course of two days, meaning they clearly had time to write something up.

 

 

 

It takes more than the five minute job some people are expecting.

I mean, this is just ridiculous. OK, so figuring out what to do in the event of a screwup takes more than 5 minutes. Yep, sure, profound. So why wasn't it done sooner? Why, on the preorder day for something in insane demand, was there not a plan in place in the event of something going wrong? GW clearly recognised demand was going to outstrip supply in a big way.

 

I've been very reasonable in my posts here. GW are not the baddies and I'm not saying their social media staff are bad people. But absolving the company itself of failure just because preorders take place on a Saturday is, frankly, ridiculous.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Doghouse]

They did it because of Tony Cottrell's remarks at Warhammer World to Josh. It was damage control.

[Master Issodon]

..... Put me off of an entire Space Marine army that I’d been busy planning for a few weeks now. Not sure if or when I’ll get back to it, which is a real shame, but I’d feel queasy giving GW my money right now.

 

 

This is what I'm worried about. At what point do the decisions that they make as a company start to increase this reaction to the point where the community as a whole starts to evaporate? It is possible, though admittedly, we aren't there yet. Do you think anyone from GW will read things like this forum topic and change the path they are on?

 

Again, thanks everyone for your opinions and keeping things friendly here.

 

I'm not calling anybody out but, it might also be worth remembering that rarely has anyone changed another's mind on a forum post. After having made your point, it may be better not to belabor it by arguing over that point with someone who likely has as firm a mindset as you do. We are a diverse crowd as it should be, but to maintain that diversity peaceably we should recognize that we all think differently. That doesn't mean anyone is less than another, just different. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Master Issodon

[painting.for.my.sanity]

The "Warhammer is for everyone" statement was totally necessary and frankly long overdue. Similarly, the act of distancing themselves from one certain video creator was also totally necessary and long overdue.

 

The BL author... Well, I don't think anyone has enough info to make a call. All the tweets related to it seem to be deleted, so we only have the author's word on what happened and nothing else.

 

The Indomitus launch was an abject failure. After GW's apology over the SoB Box, and all their comments about how many copies of Indomitus they had made, this situation simply shouldn't have happened. Regardless of whether it was down to dodgy trade accounts, failing to estimate demand, or just general greed, GW seriously need to review their practices for limited edition releases going forward. There should always be a limit of one per person, and that should be enforced by checking combinations of various details, such as name, telephone number, email address, postal address etc. Scalpers won't be able to get as much stock if they have to create a new name, email address, telephone number, bank account and postal address for every single individual order.

 

Alternatively, GW needs to turn these Limited Edition releases into a version of "Made to Order". Allow pre-orders for a set period of time (again only one per person) and then start manufacturing once you know how many you need.

 

I completely agree with this on all points. The author situation is especially awkward, as I'm not sure we'll ever know what happened there, and it's left the YouTuber they went to the defence of feeling very guilty.

 

GW's inclusivity statement is only controversial to those people who disagree with it.

 

The overwhelming evidence is that companies that cater for all and include all do better.

 

...

 

Anyway...this is a super unhealthy topic for a forum of frater and should be closed, locked, deleted, then the record of deletion deleted, then the grey knights called in for a quick mind-wipe, then a quick dust off with Grimnar, then looks of puzzlement as we forgot why we were fighting due to the mind-wipe, then some Fenrisian Oel and tales of battle and glory.

 

Spot on... and we probably don't need anything but the Mjod - no need to call in the Inquisition given how intoxicating that stuff is meant to be!

[Toxichobbit]

 

..... Put me off of an entire Space Marine army that I’d been busy planning for a few weeks now. Not sure if or when I’ll get back to it, which is a real shame, but I’d feel queasy giving GW my money right now.

 

 

This is what I'm worried about. At what point do the decisions that they make as a company start to increase this reaction to the point where the community as a whole starts to evaporate? It is possible, though admittedly, we aren't there yet. Do you think anyone from GW will read things like this forum topic and change the path they are on?

 

Again, thanks everyone for your opinions and keeping things friendly here.

 

They spent a decade making a lot of bad decisions through the early-mid 2000s to mid 2010s, but the community didn't even come close to evaporating. Over the last 5 years, they've made a lot of good decisions and have won back all the good will they lost and then some. They still have some cock ups, like this one, but worrying about the community evaporating at this point is just an exercise in self anxiety.

 

We can, and should make out displeasure known to them every time something like this happens. Whether it's accidental or deliberate, they need to know we aren't happy with their behaviour. But we don't need to worry about them destroying the community unless we have years, probably decades of this kind of thing. The community won't suddenly disappear, their shares won't suddenly drop, this forum won't suddenly become a ghost town and people won't suddenly stop playing 40k. Try not to worry about it. There's a lot going on in the world to worry about at the moment, best to reduce that worry where you can.

[Brother Tyler]

It's time to take a break. We've had to remove some posts where members ignored the guidance to stay away from politics; and things are starting to get a bit heated at points.

 

This topic may re-open later after everyone has had some time to relax and if it looks like we can avoid divisive discussion.