Chaos/Traitors create Great Rift at the start of Heresy

[Moonreaper666]

Basically, what if the Traitors destroyed all the Necron Pylons at the start of the Heresy, creating the Great Rift?

 

How would this affect the course of the Heresy?

 

What unexpected changes would occur because of this?

[RedDragon]

When exactly does this happen? Before or after the Dropsite Massacre?

[Panzer]

At the start of the heresy? That's such a huge period where a LOT happens. I won't even try to guess how it could have affected things.

[MegaVolt87]

Lorgar already had a plan to disrupt the warp that was effective already. Plus I don't believe anyone had the time to properly asses the necron pylons anyway. Also the settlement patterns and colonization of the Imperium is different in both era's, there could have well been LESS recorded pylons around, or if there were, records lost, colony's gone that know etc. Also there were far more esoteric xenos happenings in GC/HH era, pylons would have been just a footnote in that era compared to now when the necrons are actually active. 

[Lucerne]

Horus effectively gets the same territory he had a monopoly on during the Heresy, just has more difficulty moving his troops towards Terra.

 

Anything in the galactic north is pretty much lost to the Imperium during the Scouring though.

 

 

Medusa, Caliban, and Mezoa  have an awful time of things and the Rift takes a bite out of Ultramar. Tigrus is lost, but ironically the Shadow Crusade has the rift at its back making things harder.

Edited July 14, 2020 by Lucerne

[Moonreaper666]

Horus effectively gets the same territory he had a monopoly on during the Heresy, just has more difficulty moving his troops towards Terra.

 

Anything in the galactic north is pretty much lost to the Imperium during the Scouring though.

 

 

Medusa, Caliban, and Mezoa have an awful time of things and the Rift takes a bite out of Ultramar. Tigrus is lost, but ironically the Shadow Crusade has the rift at its back making things harder.

Start of Heresy means First Battle of Prospero or Isstvan III

 

I thought the Traitors are unaffected by the Ruinstorm? And the Great Rift?

 

There was this phrase in Solar War stating the Daemons of the Warp are letting the Traitors pass through unmolested

[BrainFireBob]

Depends on when. Too early, you lose Mortarion, maybe Perturabo, maybe Angron. Had to look like a rebellion and not a daemonic casting to the wolves by the damned until they were in deep enough.

[Moonreaper666]

Depends on when. Too early, you lose Mortarion, maybe Perturabo, maybe Angron. Had to look like a rebellion and not a daemonic casting to the wolves by the damned until they were in deep enough.

Huh? They were in deep by the time of Prospero and Isstvan III, there was no point of return

 

I wonder how this affect the White Scars, Blood Angels, Shattered Legions and Ultramarines? If they can't make it to Terra then Horus wins

 

Assuming that the Daemons haven't already taken over all of Terra. With the Custodes and Sisters of Silence fighting for their lives inside the Webway other less effective Imperial forces would be forced to defend Terra against Daemons

 

Both Baal and Ultramar will be dealing with full-blown Daemonic invasions

[Doctor Perils]

Chaos hasn't taken quite as much hold over most of the traitor Primarchs and legion that early in the Heresy, they're still unwitting tools of the dark gods sure, but those BrainFireBob cited would probably rail against it.

 

Plus, while the ruin storm lets some of the traitors through to a larger extent than the loyalists, it's definitely not always unscathed: in fact, it may only allow those that are already mostly corrupted through without too much trouble, and Horus relies on some that aren't completely converted yet - many of his own forces would be hindered by the great rift.

 

 

 

Not only that, but travel is still relatively unhindered in Imperium Sanctus, so loyalists might be able to travel more easily to Terra than under the total blanket of the Ruinstorm; while Isstvan is deep in Imperium Nihilus, meaning that the attack on Isstvan V by the Loyalists would become essentially impossible, meaning the drop site massacre would never happen, meaning that the three loyalist legions wouldn't be mauled and the traitors wouldn't be able to gather their forces quite so much.

 

So yeah, loyalists in Imperium Sanctus can gather together at Terra, loyalists in Imperium Nihilus don't get scrubbed on Isstvan V, traitors in Imperium Nihilus can't coordinate with those in Imperium Sanctus, and all around are unable to attack Terra.

 

So yeah, opening the Great Rift at the very outbreak of the Heresy is counterproductive for Horus (or Lorgar/KorPhaeron/Erebus for that matter) IF their goal is to take Terra.

 

 

 

 

OTOH, it _could_ be a good way for Horus to take control of Imperium Nihilus and establish his own Dark Imperium.

[MegaVolt87]

 

OTOH, it _could_ be a good way for Horus to take control of Imperium Nihilus and establish his own Dark Imperium.

 

That was never an option for Horus though, I don't think he could stand calling himself Emperor while his father still lived though. His path would always lead him to Terra regardless. 

[Doctor Perils]

Indeed - I'm just trying to think of a scenario where the early rift could be logical for Horus

[Moonreaper666]

Chaos hasn't taken quite as much hold over most of the traitor Primarchs and legion that early in the Heresy, they're still unwitting tools of the dark gods sure, but those BrainFireBob cited would probably rail against it.

 

Plus, while the ruin storm lets some of the traitors through to a larger extent than the loyalists, it's definitely not always unscathed: in fact, it may only allow those that are already mostly corrupted through without too much trouble, and Horus relies on some that aren't completely converted yet - many of his own forces would be hindered by the great rift.

 

 

 

Not only that, but travel is still relatively unhindered in Imperium Sanctus, so loyalists might be able to travel more easily to Terra than under the total blanket of the Ruinstorm; while Isstvan is deep in Imperium Nihilus, meaning that the attack on Isstvan V by the Loyalists would become essentially impossible, meaning the drop site massacre would never happen, meaning that the three loyalist legions wouldn't be mauled and the traitors wouldn't be able to gather their forces quite so much.

 

So yeah, loyalists in Imperium Sanctus can gather together at Terra, loyalists in Imperium Nihilus don't get scrubbed on Isstvan V, traitors in Imperium Nihilus can't coordinate with those in Imperium Sanctus, and all around are unable to attack Terra.

 

So yeah, opening the Great Rift at the very outbreak of the Heresy is counterproductive for Horus (or Lorgar/KorPhaeron/Erebus for that matter) IF their goal is to take Terra.

 

 

 

 

OTOH, it _could_ be a good way for Horus to take control of Imperium Nihilus and establish his own Dark Imperium.

I thought there are only two ways for the Loyalists to get in and out of Imperium Nihilus?

 

Wouldn't there be a lot of Daemonic invasions going around both sides of the Imperium?

 

Daemons can now manifest in Terra, Mars, Ultramar, Baal and so many other planets without rituals or other special requirements. Calth would be a decisive victory for the Word Bearers. Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra are much earlier as the Traitors have plenty of Daemonic reinforcements. Same with Tallarn

 

Wouldn't Lorgar still create the Ruinstorm just to give Guilliman the middle-finger?

 

Typhus and Nurgle can always corrupt Mortarion much earlier

[Pacific81]

When was the background for the Great Rift written? (3rd or 4th edition 40k?)

 

Heresy goes right back to late 80s and first edition Space Marine - so obviously they didn't know about it at that point ;) 

 

(sorry..  )

[Indefragable]

Horus effectively gets the same territory he had a monopoly on during the Heresy, just has more difficulty moving his troops towards Terra.

 

Anything in the galactic north is pretty much lost to the Imperium during the Scouring though.

 

 

Medusa, Caliban, and Mezoa  have an awful time of things and the Rift takes a bite out of Ultramar. Tigrus is lost, but ironically the Shadow Crusade has the rift at its back making things harder.

@Lucerne where/when did you get this map? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but it’s super useful.

 

For some reason I thought that FW black books put Isstvan closer to Ultramar, so Horus’ overall march was more east to west than north to south. <shrug>

[Darkwrath121]

@Lucerne where/when did you get this map? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but it’s super useful.

 

For some reason I thought that FW black books put Isstvan closer to Ultramar, so Horus’ overall march was more east to west than north to south. <shrug>

It's from the latest Road to Thramas article

[Doctor Perils]

I thought there are only two ways for the Loyalists to get in and out of Imperium Nihilus?

 

exactly, the loyalists are essentially trapped on each side of the rift where they were before it. What's more, communications are made near impossible between the two sides, and extremely complicated within Nihilus. As such, organising the attack on Isstvan V would become essentially impossible, and therefore the Dropsite Massacre couldn't happen, leaving those three loyalist legions intact and dangerous

 

Wouldn't there be a lot of Daemonic invasions going around both sides of the Imperium?

 

Daemons can now manifest in Terra, Mars, Ultramar, Baal and so many other planets without rituals or other special requirements. Calth would be a decisive victory for the Word Bearers. Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra are much earlier as the Traitors have plenty of Daemonic reinforcements. Same with Tallarn

 

Horus doesn't really control any Daemons though, especially not before Molech, so Daemonic incursions seem fairly moot. Further, and I'm not sure on this lore point, but at this point in "time" the great powers of Chaos haven't yet entirely stabilised, and so Daemons in the Material aren't actually the minions of the 4, as can be seen by the entirely different models and rules for the "Daemons of the Ruinstorm"

 

Wouldn't Lorgar still create the Ruinstorm just to give Guilliman the middle-finger?

 

yeah, but would there be a need to for Horus if the Rift is there to hinder the loyalists already?

 

Typhus and Nurgle can always corrupt Mortarion much earlier

 

ah, another hypothetical within your hypothetical to get to where you want to get. I mean, perhaps, but by that same logic or lack thereof, Horus could give the Emperor a kiss and turn him into a Daemon Princess :shrug:

 

Answers in bold.

I have to admit, in each and every one of your hypotheticals you seem to already have come to the conclusion that Horus should win, and you post for us to support your position, and when we don't you come up with ever more convoluted arguments for denying ours.

 

Hypotheticals are a fun topic, else alternate heresies like the Dornian Heresy would never have existed. However, the ones you come up with all follow the same pattern: change element X of the whole setting and therefore Horus wins. Warhammer 40k is a massive setting with super interesting stuff that isn't related to Horus: if I were to make a suggestion, try having a look at other aspects and time periods, and set hypotheticals for us to discuss _together_ (as opposed to coming to your conclusion and sticking to it all the way through). Make it a collaborative effort rather than "you against all of us". :)

[Moonreaper666]

 

I thought there are only two ways for the Loyalists to get in and out of Imperium Nihilus?

 

exactly, the loyalists are essentially trapped on each side of the rift where they were before it. What's more, communications are made near impossible between the two sides, and extremely complicated within Nihilus. As such, organising the attack on Isstvan V would become essentially impossible, and therefore the Dropsite Massacre couldn't happen, leaving those three loyalist legions intact and dangerous

 

Wouldn't there be a lot of Daemonic invasions going around both sides of the Imperium?

 

Daemons can now manifest in Terra, Mars, Ultramar, Baal and so many other planets without rituals or other special requirements. Calth would be a decisive victory for the Word Bearers. Beta-Garmon, Solar War and Siege of Terra are much earlier as the Traitors have plenty of Daemonic reinforcements. Same with Tallarn

 

Horus doesn't really control any Daemons though, especially not before Molech, so Daemonic incursions seem fairly moot. Further, and I'm not sure on this lore point, but at this point in "time" the great powers of Chaos haven't yet entirely stabilised, and so Daemons in the Material aren't actually the minions of the 4, as can be seen by the entirely different models and rules for the "Daemons of the Ruinstorm"

 

Wouldn't Lorgar still create the Ruinstorm just to give Guilliman the middle-finger?

 

yeah, but would there be a need to for Horus if the Rift is there to hinder the loyalists already?

 

Typhus and Nurgle can always corrupt Mortarion much earlier

 

ah, another hypothetical within your hypothetical to get to where you want to get. I mean, perhaps, but by that same logic or lack thereof, Horus could give the Emperor a kiss and turn him into a Daemon Princess :shrug:

 

Answers in bold.

I have to admit, in each and every one of your hypotheticals you seem to already have come to the conclusion that Horus should win, and you post for us to support your position, and when we don't you come up with ever more convoluted arguments for denying ours.

 

Hypotheticals are a fun topic, else alternate heresies like the Dornian Heresy would never have existed. However, the ones you come up with all follow the same pattern: change element X of the whole setting and therefore Horus wins. Warhammer 40k is a massive setting with super interesting stuff that isn't related to Horus: if I were to make a suggestion, try having a look at other aspects and time periods, and set hypotheticals for us to discuss _together_ (as opposed to coming to your conclusion and sticking to it all the way through). Make it a collaborative effort rather than "you against all of us". :)

Um at the start of the Great Rift M41 Daemons of Khorne were able to invade Terra on their own. Ka'Bandha invaded Baal on his own as well. Don't forget the Eight indiscriminately killing Khornate Armies that appeared as well. It is lore that devotees of Khorne can summon Daemons of Khorne by spilling a lot of blood, Khornate Daemonkin Codex

 

Nurgle himself corrupted the Scourge Stars. The Death Guard only got involved when they were ordered to invade Ultramar

 

What I am trying to say is that Horus does not have the monopoly when it comes to summoning Daemons, especially with the Great Rift now in play. Calth would still happen except there would be much more Daemons resulting in heavier casualties for the Ultramarines kicking them out of the civil war permanently

 

Daemons are now able to manifest on their own in more places and in greater numbers even on Terra, Baal and Macragge. The White Scars, Dark Angels and Ultramarines would be bogged down fighting Daemons allowing Horus to bring more Traitor forces in his push for Terra

 

The Physic Awakening would mostly benefit Traitors in the beginning because of the Nikaea Agreement and the Imperial Cult being a minority in the Imperium

 

Then there is the aspect of Imperium Secundus which gets messier thanks to Imperium Nihlus

 

All that anarchy would be very detrimental to the Imperium and allow Horus to gobble up basically free real estate at a rapid pace. Traitors can get into the Light half of the Imperium through many ways while the Loyalists have to go through two heavily fortified doorways. Countless Loyalists ships are taken by the Warp maybe even a few Space Marine fleets

[Doctor Perils]

I'm not saying Horus does or doesn't have a monopoly on summoning Daemons (as you say, he clearly doesn't) - what I'm saying is those Daemons won't be following his plans, and are completely undpredictable to him.

Also be careful of not confusing chaos space marines from after the scouring with traitor astartes of the Heresy period - each have very different strengths and understanding of the warp :)

 

WRT Imperium secundus, I'm not sure if it gets "messier" from having the great rift, since Macragge is on the Terran side of the Rift - coms to Terra would be mostly hindered by the Ruinstorm (if indeed it can be put in place as you say it would) as opposed to the Great Rift. In fact, Ultramar being bisected by the Great Rift means that Guilliman loses a lot of resources and therefore may not even be capable of forming Imperium Secundus. I also can't remember what side Sotha is on, so that would also hinder Imperium Secundus' creation. Guilliman would probably focus on getting the other half of his realm back, but it wouldn't be "messier" in the grand scheme of things.

 

Depending on the traitors in question, they may not be able to move as freely as you say, and loyalists may also be quite numerous in Sanctus already. Also, what heavily fortified doorways are these? The Nachmund Gauntlet won't have enough time to be fortified in the 20 years of the Heresy, and would still probably be under imperial control unless you add on more hypotheticals.

 

Also, without evidence in support of your statement that anarchy would only be detrimental to the Imperium I'm not sure we can accept that premise. Remember the Imperium has incredibly strong infrastructure in place already, perhaps even more so than in 40k. They have a more efficient Administration, they have access to the silent sisterhood, so the psychic awakening may not be able to take place anyway and each planet would have just as much chance at staying loyal... To this point I don't mean to say you're wrong per se, but you need to support that statement with more evidence.

 

Also, what do you think about my comment of having a discussion together rather than an argument?

[WolfLogic]

 

Horus effectively gets the same territory he had a monopoly on during the Heresy, just has more difficulty moving his troops towards Terra.

 

Anything in the galactic north is pretty much lost to the Imperium during the Scouring though.

 

 

Medusa, Caliban, and Mezoa  have an awful time of things and the Rift takes a bite out of Ultramar. Tigrus is lost, but ironically the Shadow Crusade has the rift at its back making things harder.

@Lucerne where/when did you get this map? I don’t recall ever seeing it, but it’s super useful.

 

For some reason I thought that FW black books put Isstvan closer to Ultramar, so Horus’ overall march was more east to west than north to south. <shrug>

 

The real question is, why are all the maps that GW/FW post so pixelated? Would it kill them to at least make the text a bit more legible

[WrathOfTheLion]

Interesting on the map there is that they show a quite large traitor offensive into Caliban. Will they make it so that the 1st Legion under Luther is active in the Heresy?