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Plastic Heresy Spitballing - [BASELESS SPECULATION]


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#51
Marshal Vespasian

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Lets hope theyll go in that direction once book 9 releases. I'd propably get snother starter box and paint it yellow or start a traitor legion with it and I am propably not the only one

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#52
armarnis

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How would another rulebook realize that? I think people only have to realize that aod is NOT 7th edition

#53
Master Sheol

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How would another rulebook realize that? I think people only have to realize that aod is NOT 7th edition

But HH uses the 7th edition rules with minor alterations. This Is a fact
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#54
Master Sheol

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To go "mainstream" 30k will need a second edition imo a new updated rulebook and a starter set with out those it won't go anywhere. It needs to break it's "it's 40k but super more expensive" image.

I agree but i don't see that happening before FW made all the books to siege of Terra and maybe beyond (Fall of Caliban maybe?)
Only after that there could be a new edition of HH but i don't know if FW will have the will to make this or just to keep HH alive in the form it Is Now (7th ed rules, big black books, resin models)
Only time will tell
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#55
Gederas

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How would another rulebook realize that? I think people only have to realize that aod is NOT 7th edition

But HH uses the 7th edition rules with minor alterations. This Is a fact

From what I've seen though, HH is a pretty decent ruleset?

While I've yet to play it, I've watched quite a lot of battle reports and it seems solid. I like the crunchiness, facing/armour values/templates aren't bad.



#56
Master Sheol

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How would another rulebook realize that? I think people only have to realize that aod is NOT 7th edition

But HH uses the 7th edition rules with minor alterations. This Is a fact
From what I've seen though, HH is a pretty decent ruleset?

While I've yet to play it, I've watched quite a lot of battle reports and it seems solid. I like the crunchiness, facing/armour values/templates aren't bad.
It Is a old style set of rules that has IMHO too much flaws
I never liked so much 7th edition
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“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#57
WrathOfTheLion

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They don't need to, nor should they, change the ruleset for HH from what it is. They also have not communicated any intention of doing so.

I would say all they'd need to do is make the rulebooks less expensive, but the core rulebook is already less expensive than the 40k one... So I guess they could just chuck the red book, gilded and all, into a starter box as is.

 

I'm not going to continue to the 8e vs 7e argument, it is off topic. The only things that would be on topic is what can be done with what is here to make the game more accessible. As of now, a new set of legion red books including all 18 legions would go far. The cost for rules is then comparable to a 40k codex and core rulebook. If the material cost of the current rulebook is too much to place in a starter box, then they should make a version that can be put in a starter box. A starter box with a rulebook and a basic plastic range would go a long way to the continued health of the game and the accessibility of it. Even for experienced players, dealing with cleaning up any mold slips, cleaning release agent, etc. for basic infantry like assault squads can be a bit of a put off.


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#58
Noserenda

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I remember the exact same arguments about Titanicus when it first got announced and a whole bunch of people were insistent it should stay resin and exclusive, thankfully it didnt and a lot of places struggle to keep enough of it in stock, if you make it affordable and good, people will buy boatloads of it.

Unfortunately you have the oldmarine problem, GW now has solid proof that oldmarines dont pull in their old numbers not because people are tired of marines but because they already have them and can convert/adapt minis rather than buying new ones. Which is the whole real reason for Primaris, to build a new generation of marines that you cant easily convert/adapt and really want/need to buy.

So GW looks at the (Im pretty certain) low sales of the heresy plastics (Because the marines are expensive and the contemptor is awful) and see "proof" that more heresy plastics wont sell enough even before you get onto nonsense premium labels and such.

Now personally i think AoD would work perfectly well as a specialist game with a plastics budget, a starter box and preferably a more comprehensive rules update, either back to something more like 5th ed or 8th/9th (but well away from the mess that was 6th/7th) or its own rules set entirely. Bring back some of the players youve haemorrhaged over the years and make starting the game less like pulling teeth or burning money :D  

I guess we shall see though :)    


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#59
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I don't think the Heresy plastics sell low for what they are, at least the MK III, MK IV, Tartaros and Cataphractii kits. They even still stock the MK III kits in their stores. Now, after the most recent price increase, the MK III/IV kits are only $1 more expensive than a 40k tactical squad in the US...

That contemptor kit is so bad though.


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#60
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Imma ask y'all to reel it back to discussing possible Plastic Heresy starter kits not whether or not HH should change its ruleset. We've been down that road multiple times already.


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#61
sarabando

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i dont think Heresy has an old marine problem in fact i dont think there is an old marine problem i think the problem is the same one as alot of xenos armies have which is if you dont release new minis and rules for an army/system people wont buy it. New and shiney is a really important factor on what people spend their money on, you just have to spend a little time on the IG/FB 30k community each time a new book comes out and suddenly all you see is whatever legion is newest. HH suffers from bad press as 40k players think its just expensive 7th edition not its own stand-alone system a new starter box/rules with associated media support and being welcome in stores would go a long way into getting "average" 40k players to dip their toes in, an article for example about playing early in the scouring so you can bring non legion coloured marines may help imo.


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#62
Hungry Nostraman Lizard

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I think hammering in the fact that some of the models started exclusively for 40k, and that some kits have 40k rules would go a LONG way to help make sales. I don't see why they don't do that enough. Back when I still cared to dip my toes into 40k I exclusively was buying units that had rules for both systems to get as much value out of the kits as possible. There needs to be community articles more often for it to be honest, the write up can't take more than hour or two;

"Hey, we asked a few faces in the community to show us some characters they've been working on for the Age of Darkness..."

"Here's GregMcFredson, show us your Legion, Greg. Look, he's got a few storm eagles and a leviathan or two. He's also got a few outrider squadrons. Did you know that there's rules for Steagles and Outriders in 30k AND 40k? COOL! *link to shop*"

Speaking of storm eagles... I know it's not likely, but DAMN I'd love for that to be a full plastic kit. 


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#63
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What I would really love in a Start Collecting is a multi-part plastic Consul, kinda like the old Captain kit, where we could make various different consul options out of one box. Then FW would probably retire most of their sculpts though....


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#64
Noserenda

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i dont think Heresy has an old marine problem in fact i dont think there is an old marine problem i think the problem is the same one as alot of xenos armies have which is if you dont release new minis and rules for an army/system people wont buy it. 

I dont think youve understood the problem here, old marines GOT all the attention for years, GW didnt start favouring Astartes with Primaris after all, which im pretty certain is an indisputable fact. What they found was diminishing returns though, producing new, better, versions of old core kits wasnt bringing in the numbers they wanted so they tried adding entirely new units with decidedly mixed results (I personally think because the majority of their new stuff was terribad but ymmv) and came to the conclusion that people did not re-buy plastic units they already possessed in enough numbers. (Which is why they do that a lot less now) and furthermore the second hand market for Marines had tonnes of old models folks could snap up cheaply to boot. Which is why they designed and released new, bigger marines, with minimal crossover with the old stuff so folks felt they had to buy more newer stuff to go with it, which is the only reason Primaris cant ride in land raiders etc where the scale would look fine otherwise. 

Now it didnt go perfectly by any means, the fluff was pretty hamfisted and not everyone could kitbash up the plain jane look to satisfaction (And i think AoD could have capitalised biggly on the dissatisfied but circumstances prevented that)  but Marine sales went through the roof, then the atmosphere then got otherwise lost in the vast galaxy of 8th selling ridiculous numbers and now apparently Indomnitus selling more copies than Dark Imperium ever did in minutes because that chicken has come home to roost. Its never been about attention, its been about getting hobbyists to keep buying fresh armies rather than slightly expanding old ones, or, worst of all, buying someone else's old ones. biggrin.png 

Which is why its a problem for the Oldmarines, because it takes a similar amount of time to design/market/produce a plastic Mk2 kit that would sell well as it does to design a Mk 2 inspired Primaris kit that will sell gajillions, so one gets the lion share of the attention (and plastics production), ultimately, so yeah i suppose you do have a point, just not what i was getting at. 

Its more prevalent in AoS with all new armies and units, never revamps but it really exploded Marines. 


Edited by Noserenda, 24 July 2020 - 01:03 AM.


#65
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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?



#66
sarabando

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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

id be very happy with a mkII tactical box as it means some semi long term commitment from GW.


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#67
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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

Sales, certainly at the early heresy events Mk4 dominated because it was the only mass produce-able option but as soon as FW released Mk3 it was right up there. Especially with the attrition focused legions like Death guard, Salamanders or Iron Warriors. Mk 2 has its fans but it was definitely less popular, and then the plastic started rolling out and only tilted it further.

Which is a damn shame, especially as its basically needed for Pre heresy projects, it could really suit a Specialist games 5 trooper frame though, that and Mk 5 (Which is bae :P



#68
MegaVolt87

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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

Sales, certainly at the early heresy events Mk4 dominated because it was the only mass produce-able option but as soon as FW released Mk3 it was right up there. Especially with the attrition focused legions like Death guard, Salamanders or Iron Warriors. Mk 2 has its fans but it was definitely less popular, and then the plastic started rolling out and only tilted it further.

Which is a damn shame, especially as its basically needed for Pre heresy projects, it could really suit a Specialist games 5 trooper frame though, that and Mk 5 (Which is bae tongue.png

 

 

A smarter way to do Mk II, V and VI would be as assault squads, include power packs + JP's and you get running legs to boot ( I would have 3/5 legs running, seperate run stances). Downside- no bolters, heavy weapons, no extra dudes. I could understand the reluctance to do 10 man units/ tac squad though. 


Edited by MegaVolt87, 29 July 2020 - 12:33 AM.

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#69
WolfLogic

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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

Sales, certainly at the early heresy events Mk4 dominated because it was the only mass produce-able option but as soon as FW released Mk3 it was right up there. Especially with the attrition focused legions like Death guard, Salamanders or Iron Warriors. Mk 2 has its fans but it was definitely less popular, and then the plastic started rolling out and only tilted it further.
Which is a damn shame, especially as its basically needed for Pre heresy projects, it could really suit a Specialist games 5 trooper frame though, that and Mk 5 (Which is bae :P )
 
A smarter way to do Mk II, V and VI would be as assault squads, include power packs + JP's and you get running legs to boot ( I would have 3/5 legs running, seperate run stances). Downside- no bolters, heavy weapons, no extra dudes. I could understand the reluctance to do 10 man units/ tac squad though.
At that point, would it really be difficult to include an extra sprue with bolters and some heavy+special weapons?
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#70
sarabando

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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

Sales, certainly at the early heresy events Mk4 dominated because it was the only mass produce-able option but as soon as FW released Mk3 it was right up there. Especially with the attrition focused legions like Death guard, Salamanders or Iron Warriors. Mk 2 has its fans but it was definitely less popular, and then the plastic started rolling out and only tilted it further.
Which is a damn shame, especially as its basically needed for Pre heresy projects, it could really suit a Specialist games 5 trooper frame though, that and Mk 5 (Which is bae tongue.png )
 
A smarter way to do Mk II, V and VI would be as assault squads, include power packs + JP's and you get running legs to boot ( I would have 3/5 legs running, seperate run stances). Downside- no bolters, heavy weapons, no extra dudes. I could understand the reluctance to do 10 man units/ tac squad though.
At that point, would it really be difficult to include an extra sprue with bolters and some heavy+special weapons?

 

A. sprue 5 mk2 marines 3 standing legs 2 running power packs, and heads. Sprue b. Boltes, arms heavy weapon. Sprue C. BP/CCW, arms, jump packs.

then its just tac box 2x A 2 x B and assault is 2x A 2x C



#71
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Honesty, at this point I would just like a plastic Tactical MKII kit so FW could make upgrade sets for them and the other basic plastics.

Arm + Chainaxe upgrades for MkII plastics
Breached upgrades for MkIII plastics
Assault Marine upgrades for MkIV plastics

You could do so much with those basic three templates, not to mention whatever upgrades you could do for the plastic Terminator kits.
Destroyer upgrades for Terminator kits to make Terminator Destroyers? Yes please!
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#72
MegaVolt87

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Honestly all I want is plastic Mark II, a Tactical Squad box and an Assault Squad Box. I’ve never understood why they went with Mark III when it’s always referenced as a specialist type of power armor. Mark II was the original general issue power armor, wouldn’t Astartes primarily be switching from Mark II to Mark IV as it becomes available?

Sales, certainly at the early heresy events Mk4 dominated because it was the only mass produce-able option but as soon as FW released Mk3 it was right up there. Especially with the attrition focused legions like Death guard, Salamanders or Iron Warriors. Mk 2 has its fans but it was definitely less popular, and then the plastic started rolling out and only tilted it further.
Which is a damn shame, especially as its basically needed for Pre heresy projects, it could really suit a Specialist games 5 trooper frame though, that and Mk 5 (Which is bae tongue.png )
 
A smarter way to do Mk II, V and VI would be as assault squads, include power packs + JP's and you get running legs to boot ( I would have 3/5 legs running, seperate run stances). Downside- no bolters, heavy weapons, no extra dudes. I could understand the reluctance to do 10 man units/ tac squad though.
At that point, would it really be difficult to include an extra sprue with bolters and some heavy+special weapons?

 

 

It would actually, because the box size would need to be larger, using more material, box weight + size increase with extra sprue increase shipping cost as you ship 100's- 1000's + of them etc. These costs are all passed onto the customer, GW makes a massive profit per box. Its more attractive for GW's bottom line to provide a assault squad box instead like I said, we get the box we need quickly, GW makes the money they want. Our wallets always lose regardless. Also legion HW and tac support squads could be one box with 5 guys as well. Expecting plastic 10 man boxes of each armour mark in a tac squad style box is too much to be realistic. 


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#73
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With plastic kits, including those for specialist games, GW/FW seems to focus on making sure you can build a legal unit from the box alone, so if we do get more plastic infantry for 30k, I'd expect units like Breachers & Assault marines to be 10-marine boxes, as that's their minimum unit size, but 5-man boxes for any smaller units they can afford to include fewer sprues for.


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#74
WrathOfTheLion

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They should be able to fit 10 assault marines in a 4-sprue box with ease, which seems standard for the $60 USD primaris kits. A $60 10-man box would be massive, over a 50% reduction in monetary cost to field assault marine squads, which are basic troops.
 

Right now, it is $132 USD (before tax...) to field a 10-man assault marine squad. Something like 100-110 GBP by the end of the day.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 30 July 2020 - 01:48 PM.

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#75
Astartes Consul

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They should be able to fit 10 assault marines in a 4-sprue box with ease, which seems standard for the $60 USD primaris kits. A $60 10-man box would be massive, over a 50% reduction in monetary cost to field assault marine squads, which are basic troops.
 

Right now, it is $132 USD (before tax...) to field a 10-man assault marine squad. Something like 100-110 GBP by the end of the day.

 

Never, ever, work out how expensive a basic unit is in resin. You'll just go mad. 


Honesty, at this point I would just like a plastic Tactical MKII kit so FW could make upgrade sets for them and the other basic plastics.

Arm + Chainaxe upgrades for MkII plastics
Breached upgrades for MkIII plastics
Assault Marine upgrades for MkIV plastics

You could do so much with those basic three templates, not to mention whatever upgrades you could do for the plastic Terminator kits.
Destroyer upgrades for Terminator kits to make Terminator Destroyers? Yes please!

 

Massively agree with this. I've said it before but FW misses a huge trick by no longer doing upgrade kits like this*

 

*I know there are some, especially weapons and Legion head kits, but you used to be able to get full vehicle upgrade kits to bolt onto GW plastic kits which were ace.


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