White Scar Balance in 9th

[Prot]

I'm glad to hear you did so well.... I was going to say it sounds like a lot of the Chaos players early decisions were..... not optimal. As a side note, if Oblits start on the table, there's no way he should have made them assaultable in T1.... ever. That unit is far too expensive.

 

Did he ever go after your chunky Intercessors with chaincannons with Vets of the long war? That can be somewhat brutal because I notice you don't use transports.

 

On your army: I am surprised you like the Primaris captain over Khan, but I guess there's good merit to him as well? (I don't know I've only used him with my Deathwatch).

 

I kind of gave up on Eliminators. They went up too much, and I think it's harder in 9th for a typical table of terrain to see those nice long shots to pop HQ's off.

 

I tried the Redemptor a few times, and pulled him out of my list, but maybe that was a mistake? I confess I was excited to try the Macroplasma and it was immensely disappointing. 

[durdle-durdle]

I'm glad to hear you did so well.... I was going to say it sounds like a lot of the Chaos players early decisions were..... not optimal. As a side note, if Oblits start on the table, there's no way he should have made them assaultable in T1.... ever. That unit is far too expensive.

 

Did he ever go after your chunky Intercessors with chaincannons with Vets of the long war? That can be somewhat brutal because I notice you don't use transports.

 

On your army: I am surprised you like the Primaris captain over Khan, but I guess there's good merit to him as well? (I don't know I've only used him with my Deathwatch).

 

I kind of gave up on Eliminators. They went up too much, and I think it's harder in 9th for a typical table of terrain to see those nice long shots to pop HQ's off.

 

I tried the Redemptor a few times, and pulled him out of my list, but maybe that was a mistake? I confess I was excited to try the Macroplasma and it was immensely disappointing. 

oblits: I don't think he realized the incursors were forward deployers, even though I'm sure I mentioned it.  I think his plan was to run a unit of cultists in front of them and hold me off, but I got first turn, so he wasn't able to do that.  

 

Havocs: the left-most unit of chainguns was only able to see a redemptor and the big squad of intercessors which was hiding behind a small defence line terrain piece.  He shot at the intercessors, but it didn't do much since they got cover.  the right most squad took down like 3 auto rifle intercessors.  He didn't get a second shooting phase with them, really.  I'm not really sure how, but he burned through all his CP's without ever using veterans of the long war.  I think he took some special chaos detachment for the disco lord and the venomcrawlers, and an extra relic.  Then he spent a ton of CP shooting in my turn twice with the noise marines (i think?) against a redemptor.

 

Captain: I don't actually have a Khan model, but I DO have an indomitus captain, so I used him.  I might get a Khan when they get back in stock if I find myself playing a lot of White Scars.

 

Eliminators: I agree, but they were a little cheaper than a squad of stalker intercessors, which I was considering, and I mostly wanted them to forward deploy slightly.

 

Redemptor:  I really like him, he's done really well, but also most of my opponents bring very few anti vehicle weapons.  The T8 is huge vs anti-infantry weapons.  Against my friend who has plasma spam guard with battle cannon russes though, I expect it to do a lot less.

[FinalCookie]

 

Redemptor:  I really like him, he's done really well, but also most of my opponents bring very few anti vehicle weapons.  The T8 is huge vs anti-infantry weapons.  Against my friend who has plasma spam guard with battle cannon russes though, I expect it to do a lot less.

 

 

Just in case I'm reading this right, The Redemptor Dreadnought in Toughness 7, not 8. It still does well VS small arms fire, so your point is totally valid.

 

I've played two 1000 pt games, and in one of them the Redemptor was the absolute MVP of my list. Being able to advance and charge while still firing when using Scars strat to turn weapons into Assault is incredibly useful, especially with the smallest board size.

[Lemondish]

I tried the Redemptor a few times, and pulled him out of my list, but maybe that was a mistake? I confess I was excited to try the Macroplasma and it was immensely disappointing.

The thing about the macro plasma is that it's statically a twinlas equivalent when it comes to average damage but the randomness starts early in the sequence rather than at the end, so it just feels bad to use because of that.

 

Then there's the mortal wound threat and the blast limitations in combat to consider.

 

Ultimately I find the double Onslaught to be my preferred loadout. Starts to behave similar to those hammer Intercessor units that can clear screens and then use the can opener on vehicles.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Lemondish

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

Redemptor:  I really like him, he's done really well, but also most of my opponents bring very few anti vehicle weapons.  The T8 is huge vs anti-infantry weapons.  Against my friend who has plasma spam guard with battle cannon russes though, I expect it to do a lot less.

 

 

Just in case I'm reading this right, The Redemptor Dreadnought in Toughness 7, not 8. It still does well VS small arms fire, so your point is totally valid.

 

I've played two 1000 pt games, and in one of them the Redemptor was the absolute MVP of my list. Being able to advance and charge while still firing when using Scars strat to turn weapons into Assault is incredibly useful, especially with the smallest board size.

 

Oh dang, that was my bad.  Thanks for pointing that out.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Played another game today, I've been trying to decide between liking white scars or blood angels more as a CC focused army in this edition, and I think I'm now squarely in the White Scars camp, at least until CC jump pack marines get released.

 

My list:

-Indomitus captain with the burning blade relic and the Imperiums sword trait (hero of the chapter)

-primaris chaplain, warlord - bellowing firebrand, master of sanctity, catechism of fire and canticle of hate

-incursor squad, 5 man x 2

-Intercessors, 5 man, auto bolt rifle, sgt has power sword x 2

-intercessors, 10 man, bolt rifle, sgt has power sword

-aggresor squax, 3 man, bolt storm gaultlets

-blade guard vets, 3 man

-redemptor dreadnought, onslaught, heavy onslaught, storm bolters, icarus rockets, x2

-Inceptors, 3 man, plasma exterminators

-outrider squad, 3 man

-Supressor squad, 3 man

-eliminator squad, 3 man, bolt sniper rifles, x 2

 

enemy was emperor's children chaos space marines (I don't have their exact list)

-chaos lord

-lord discordant

-noise marines, 10 men, 3 squads

-cultists, 10 man, 2 squads

-havocs, 5 man squad with chainguns, 2 squads

-obliterators, 3 man squad

-3 venomcrawlers

 

2K game.  I went first.  His deployment from left to right was roughly:

Left(noise marines, cultists, 3 venomcrawlers + disco lord) Center: (havocs, chaos lord, havocs, noise marines) right:(cultists, noise marines, and obliterators)

 

I deployed roughly

Left (outriders, redemptor, inceptors, captain, chaplain, bolt rifle intercessors, redemptor) center (empty) right: (auto intercessors, suppressors, eliminators, eliminators, auto intercessors)

The incursors forward deployed on the right side.

 

I got turn 1:

the incursors moved forward, between them, the auto bolters, and the suppressors, they killed an obliterator.  The incursors later charged the oblits (no overwatched) and killed one.  the oblits whiffed and did nothing.

 

On the left, the outriders and left redemptor ran forward.  the rest kind of death balled together and moved up.  Killed a cultist squad, a havoc squad, and a noise marines squad.

 

His turn:

he shot up the auto bolters, killed about half of them.  The oblit did nothing (and couldn't get out of combat)  on the other side, he killed the outrider and damaged a bit of one of the redemptors.  The inceptors lost a guy.  He moved the venomcrawlers and disco lord up.  The disco lord tried to make a charge onto my intercessors and redemptor, but failed the charge.

 

Turn 2: 

the  incursors left combat with the oblit (paid a CP to charge later).  the suppressors took out the oblit, the remaining auto intercessors and the incursors killed a havoc squad.  The auto bolters charged a cultist squad, the incursors charged a noise marine squad.  On the other side, my redemptor moved into range of a venomcrawler, the bladeguard and captain moved into range of another venomcrawler, and the aggressors, other redemptor and chaplain went after the disco lord.  On the left, in shooting, I wiped another noise marine squad and a cultist squad.  In the fight phase, killed the 2 venomcrawlers and the disco lord.   Did not fight the cultists or noise marines, opponent conceeded.

 

 

My secondaries were bring it down, attack on all fronts, and attrition, I think.

 

How I scored isn't really important since it was over turn 2, but I got attack on all fronts in both turns and bring it down 3 times.

 

 

LESSONS LEARNED:

Two close combat armies going at one another is going to be over QUICK.  If you have a strong CC unit attacking another CC unit, it easily depends on who gets the charge off.  So, if we are fighting another CC heavy army army, I would recommend screening your elite guys until you plan on making a charge.  Be careful getting your CC units close to theirs, because if they are able to get the charge on you, they will probably wipe your unit and turn the game really quickly.

 

Suppressors: I think a single unit is great, but not a must have.  The ability to shut down the oblits was very nice and saved some casualties on the incursors for sure.  With a big range, they can make sure your key charges against heavy shooting units go through well.  On the other hand, they only get 1 overwatch and only on 6's, so I could easily see a reason to skip them.

 

Redemptors: oh man, these guys slap.  With all the obscuring terrain and big guns never tire, they can easily gun down a squad and beat down another.  With good positioning, you can ensure they don't take a ton of damage either.  with the chaplain giving a big bubble of +2" to advance and charge from "litanyof go fast", they can move SO FAST across the board and fist stuff.

 

intercessors with auto bolt rifles: they were good in 8th, they're good here.  With no penalty to advancing and shooting AND charging, they move super fast and can bully any non-dedicated CC squads.  

 

eliminators: super meh.  I basically just brought them to forward deploy on the objectives near my deployment zone.  They're fairly cheap and have a great save, can start out on the objective (so they don't need to move where a squad of stalker bolters would).  I dunno.  Not bad, really, not great.  

 

chaplain: master of sanctity is great, and bellowing firebrand makes his bubble for "litany of go fast" really great.  Those long-bomb charges are really easy with the +2".  

 

also:

chaos marines are overcosted, cult units probably need + 1 wound, oblits need a points reduction.  My opponent played the venom crawlers + disco lord badly, IMO.  He put them in a perfect spot for ALL my CC units to charge easily.

 

 

 

 

 

On another note:

my next opponent I'll face at some point is cadian guard with several leman russes.  I'm not very confident on how to deal with that.  He's going to put the russes at the back of the board and just try to shoot me all game.  While I'll be fast, he has plenty of chaff squads to take the charge and then my guys will be in the open while they get shot to pieces from the russes.  Even if I get to the russes, I don't really know how to damage them outside of hitting it with a redemptor or near-suiciding plasma inceptors into them.  In addition, he usually plays a "plasma spam" guard list, which is hard to counter.  (he always plays plasma spam, it's not list tailoring against me)  

How did you manage to kill an obliterator with 5 incursors?  Wounding on 5s vs a 2+ save doesnt seem like it would produce results unless your opponent made a legendary roll of mostly 1s.  The reason I ask is that I've faced an obliterator heavy list a few times recently and my opponent often has them start on the board.  I tried tying them up in combat but often been beaten down since they are strong vs normal marines in close combat.  How did you pull that off?

 

 

quick math.... 5 incursors rerolling all hits AND wounds will do an average of 2.5 wounds vs oblits.  

[Vardus]

 

 

-incursor squad, 5 man x 2

-Intercessors, 5 man, auto bolt rifle, sgt has power sword x 2

-Supressor squad, 3 man

 

 

 

 

I got turn 1:

the incursors moved forward, between them, the auto bolters, and the suppressors, they killed an obliterator.  The incursors later charged the oblits (no overwatched) and killed one.  the oblits whiffed and did nothing.

 

 

How did you manage to kill an obliterator with 5 incursors?  Wounding on 5s vs a 2+ save doesnt seem like it would produce results unless your opponent made a legendary roll of mostly 1s.  The reason I ask is that I've faced an obliterator heavy list a few times recently and my opponent often has them start on the board.  I tried tying them up in combat but often been beaten down since they are strong vs normal marines in close combat.  How did you pull that off?

 

 

quick math.... 5 incursors rerolling all hits AND wounds will do an average of 2.5 wounds vs oblits.  

 

 

He used these three units to kill the first Oblit, which I assume also put wounds onto the second, making it easier to take down? Or it was super lucky or unlucky depending which side of the fence you are on!

Edited August 10, 2020 by Vardus

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

 

-incursor squad, 5 man x 2

-Intercessors, 5 man, auto bolt rifle, sgt has power sword x 2

-Supressor squad, 3 man

 

 

 

 

I got turn 1:

the incursors moved forward, between them, the auto bolters, and the suppressors, they killed an obliterator.  The incursors later charged the oblits (no overwatched) and killed one.  the oblits whiffed and did nothing.

 

 

How did you manage to kill an obliterator with 5 incursors?  Wounding on 5s vs a 2+ save doesnt seem like it would produce results unless your opponent made a legendary roll of mostly 1s.  The reason I ask is that I've faced an obliterator heavy list a few times recently and my opponent often has them start on the board.  I tried tying them up in combat but often been beaten down since they are strong vs normal marines in close combat.  How did you pull that off?

 

 

quick math.... 5 incursors rerolling all hits AND wounds will do an average of 2.5 wounds vs oblits.  

 

 

He used these three units to kill the first Oblit, which I assume also put wounds onto the second, making it easier to take down? Or it was super lucky or unlucky depending which side of the fence you are on!

 

Some players are able elevate the failure of 2+ saves into an art form.  

[durdle-durdle]

Yeah, all the shooting from those 3 units killed 1 and put the other to one wound. The incursors got through the final wound on the second and left after my opponent failed to do much with the 1 obliterated left. He was surrounded and didnt want to use desperate escape to rescue a single model. The suppressors finished him off in my turn 2.

[Bat33.1]

From what I am picking up for 9th its all about dominating the midfield as quickly as possible as that is where the objectives are and being able to push resilient troops off those objectives. Things like nurglings thrown forward early so I see outriders and bikers being a go to for white scars due to the movement ability to jump into midfield and as a small ish unit they can try to use LoS blocking terrain for cover. The game at the moment is about holding those primary objectives.

 

I'm still in the build phase as I've got a DG army which look to be in a good place but want something new for 9th so working on scars and plan on mostly Primaris build. Maybe the big speeder will be out by the time I get that far?

 

What units do you see as a must take in a primaris build for 9th?

[6262]

Has anyone been using a vehicle like a rhino or other vehicle to drop off a combat squad either at the beginning of a turn or after the first movement with rapid disembarkation before using the double move strat to rocket the vehicle forward again setting up another drop off? It seems like it could be pretty helpful once everything it's fighting in the scrum to find outlying objectives.... But I guess deep striking might be better +/- the bubbles around the enemy units. It seems like this way you're establishing 3 different hurdles to the enemy taking objectives or scoring secondaries yourself in some cases from one location in your list. Letting other parts focus on being threats or do something similar.

 

I've yet to play a game of 9th myself and I'm trying to get a feel for what sort of play I'm needing to make as the game progresses.

[Prot]

I'm not sure you'd gain enough advantage from that move to make it worth the CP expenditure. For example, I've been simply moving up an Impulsor (normal) and just disembarking. The smaller table rarely makes it worth a double move unless you want to play bumper cars.

 

The problem I find you can get into is over extension with White Scars. It's very easy to fall into this trap... you inherently move so fast, and can assault. There are a handful of armies which are much better at assault, and you can find your units isolated and overwhelmed.

 

I always go back to 'they're still marines'... meaning mid range firepower is still pretty important. 

[Dr. Clock]

I'm not sure you'd gain enough advantage from that move to make it worth the CP expenditure. For example, I've been simply moving up an Impulsor (normal) and just disembarking. The smaller table rarely makes it worth a double move unless you want to play bumper cars.

 

The problem I find you can get into is over extension with White Scars. It's very easy to fall into this trap... you inherently move so fast, and can assault. There are a handful of armies which are much better at assault, and you can find your units isolated and overwhelmed.

 

I always go back to 'they're still marines'... meaning mid range firepower is still pretty important. 

100% this. Originally I'm an Eldar player, and my earliest struggles were just getting myself out of an 'all-in from turn 1' mentality, or using deployment and early movement against your enemy rather than as 'just a way to close range' or go right at them.

 

My solution in general has been to focus turns one and two on 'jousting' or baiting opponents into one or two movement/positioning blunders, and then bringing the hammer down on turn three to exploit whatever gaps they leave. That's where deepstrike and skimmer units shine: bringing overwhelming force to vulnerable points in the line, and where you can garner the best math-ups.

 

It's easy to take the bait when gribblies and chaffe come right at you, but you often don't want to assault that stuff, even if the match-up on that turn goes okay. Mostly this means asking 'what will the unit's position be on the next turn if they are successful in this charge' to the picture of success rather than 'will they kill the guys they attack this round'. It's pretty basic: play turns 1-2 for turns 3-4, and give the opponent a long enough rope to hang themselves.

 

Cheers,

 

The Good Doctor.

[durdle-durdle]

Played a game a couple days ago and I feel bad because of how hard I won....

 

I don't have my exact list because I built it on an excel spreadsheet on someone's computer, but it was roughly:

2k, white scars

gravis armour captain

chaplain on a bike w/ canticle of hate + defaults.  relic- vox esperitum

chapter champion * warlord* w/ martial exemplar warlord trait and blade of triumph relic.

 

2x 10 assault intercessors, default loadout

2 x 5 incursors, default loadout

2x redemptors with both versions of onslaught cannons

2 x 3 bladeguard

2 x 3 outriders

1 x 3 eradicators (encircled)

1 x 3 plasma inceptors (deep strike)

 

his list, I'm even fuzzier on, was something like

2k, custom doctrines (advance and shoot rapid fire + reroll number of shots for vehicles)

3 tank commanders (battle cannons and plasma sponsons + lascannon)

1 leman russ (punisher gatling cannon and plasma sponson + lascannon)

1 wyvern

2-3 (not sure exactly) scion squads (hot shot volley guns, deep striking)

6ish guard squads (plasma guns)

1 valkyrie or something like it (had like 6 lascannons)

1 psyker of some kind

1 squad of ratlings

 

mission was the 4 pillars, another person set up the map for us.  basically, there were two large buildings on either side of the center of the table and 4 smaller buildings on the left and right sides for a total of 10ish buildings.

 

two incursors forward deployed in the empty left table quarter behind a building.

 

I deployed my assault intercessors behind two buildings in my corner which was on my side of the board, the two bladeguard veterans on the right side and the redemptor on the left side.  essentially I had a big blob that looked like this:

 

(                                                                building                                                                         )

                                                             center of table

(                                                                building                                                                         )

(redemptor)  (assault intercessors) (assault intercessors) (bladeguard)(bladeguard) 

                                          (chaplain, captain, and champion)

 

off to the right, behind a smaller building, I had the two outriders and a redemptor behind a couple smaller buildings.

 

He got turn one and moved two of his russes up to touch the first building to try and get shots on the on the bladeguard on the right and the outriders,  and ran a squad of guardsmen out front to chaff for the tanks.  he also moved a tank towards the incursor's side and ran a squad of guard kind-of-but-not-really in between the two.  the guardsmen were standing on the corner of the building the 2 incursor squads were behind, but I could still just walk past them (he rolled low on the advance die).  in his back field were 2 more russes with a squad standing in front of them and in the far corner, the wyvern.  on my right, he deployed his ratlings similar to my incursors.  he brought in the valkyrie/thing on the right side.

 

He gave the tank commanders "strike and shroud" and gave the guard chaff squad near the incursors -1 to get hit from his psyker.  (he was confident i'd charge them instead of the tank since i couldn't really hurt the tank)

Shooting from the incursor side guardsmen killed 3 incursors (he rolled well on plasma and I rolled poorly).  The russ unfortunately couldn't actually SEE anything.  The middle two russes took out a bladeguard squad and 2/3 of an outrider squad.  his guard in the middle could draw LOS to the assault intercessors and killed 1.  the ratlings attempted and failed to shoot the champion.  the wyvern killed another 2 assault intercessors from the same squad.  the russes in the back couldn't see anything either, even after having shuffled slightly.    The valkyrie failed to do anything.

 

in my turn, I used the canticle of hate and ran the assault intercessors, surviving bladeguard, and the characters towards the middle of the table (captain and chaplain did not run).  I also used the stratagem to have the chaplain do a second litany (the WS litany, for rerolls to wound).  I gave the 10 man assault intercessor squad adaptive strategy.  the left redemptor moved around the building towards the left russ in the open at normal speed.  the right redemptor moved toward the center of the board as well and got within 6" of the chapter champion and the chaplain.  the bikes turbo boosted past his front line (there was a big gap between two buildings about 6" wide) directly in front of the two back field russes.  From encirclement, my eradicators and inceptors came on his back board edge in the table quarter that was basically empty.  We weren't sure if the inceptors could come on turn 1 (because they couldn't in 8th, but couldn't find a rule that directly stated they couldn't.  This may have been a misplay, not sure).  They could see his two back field russes.  The incursors on the left ran past the guard squad as close as possible to the russ.

 

the shooting from the redemptors cleared the guardsmen from the center of the table and did some damage to the left side guardsmen.  the captain and chaplain shot the ratlings down to like 2 members left.  the eradicators shot and killed 1 russ.  I overcharged (killed two of them LMAO) and did 8 wounds to the other russ, basically neutering it.  

 

in charging, between the +2 inches from the chaplain's litany (9" range is HUGE) and the champion's martial exemplar warlord trait for rerolls, the middle two assault intercessors and company champion charged the middle two russes and the dreadnought charged the right-most of those russes.  the incursors ignored the guard squad on the left and charged the russ on their side.  The bikers in the back charged the guard squad standing in front of the surviving back field russ.  the chaplain and captain attempted and failed to make a charge, which isn't surprising since they were the furthest away from anything.  He overwatched with one of the tanks, but it didn't do anything of note.

 

I did the bikes first, since everything else was just vehicles.  they killed the guard squad in front of them and consolidated into the russ with the aid of "strike for the heart" strategem.  The redemptor punched and destroyed the russ in front of it, which then EXPLODED doing 4 mortal wounds.  this killed 2 of the intercessors from the wounded squad and did 4 wounds to the russ next to it.  Because of how they were positioned, the company champion and the big intercessor squad was out of the way of the explosion, however.  The champion and the intercessors consolidated into the space and killed that other russ, which did not explode.  The intercessors on the left did like 2 wounds to the russ on their side.  the ratlings failed leadership and ran.  

 

At this point, my opponent asked to concede because of how badly it was going.  He had left the valkyrie, the neutered russ in the back(tied in combat with basically nowhere to go), the wyvern, 2-3 guard squads in inconsequential positions (in some buildings on his quarter and in front of the wyvern), the russ in combat with the incursors (who had consolidated to lock it in against a building), the guard squad next to them, and the 2-3 deep striking scion squads.  He was confident there was no way to pull it back, and i agreed.  the surviving non-neutered russ could probably kill the incursors, but couldn't get away from the redemptor, company champion, and the big blob of intercessors.  The guard squads were basically worthless, the wyvern couldn't really do much damage to anything because of the high saves.  The scions could come on and tear up the intercessors a good bit, but likely wouldn't kill enough to matter before being smacked down by them in turn or by one of the redemptors.  With this only being turn ONE, there was no way for him to come back on secondaries either.

 

To be fair here, the table corners from 4 pillars' map greatly favors an aggressive punching army.  I don't think deploying 2 of his russes close to the center line was a great idea, but i also don't know what other choice he had.  If he DIDN'T move them in a place to shoot, he would lose a ton of shooting value while i outmaneuvered him with my MUCH faster army turn 1.  I think this game was rigged against him from the start.  

 

lessons learned:

-don't sleep on the chapter champion.  his warlord trait gives a bubble of re-roll charges and his relic makes him a beatstick.  at s7, -3ap, 3 dam (4, if we're in assault doctrine) and 6 attacks on the charge, he'll murder almost anything.   In addition, since he was punching a tank commander, he got re-rolls to hit (not that it mattered with the captain nearby and his 2+ ws anyways).

-The biker chaplain PAIRED with the chapter champion gives out an insane range as well.  In addition, the captain giving reroll's of 1's and the chaplain giving rerolls of wounds pushes the damage up really high.

-Encircled eradicators are bonkers.  Even if they're NOT in melta range, their 24" range and doubleshooting still means they'll kill almost anything short of a knight.  If your opponent doesn't screen out for them to stay away from their vehicles, they're a chump and their vehicles are dead.  

-Nobody expects outriders to move 20" and then charge.  Frankly, I'm glad they're capped at 3 bikes per squad.  any more would be overkill, honestly.  If their multipart kit gives them weapon options like thunder hammers or something on the sgt, they may even be a bit broken without a good points hike.  their speed, amount of WOUNDS, and their high damage output make them amazing.

-I still don't know how I feel about the assault intercessors versus auto bolter intercessors.  They didn't do much in this game, but it was also over turn 1 and they ended up punching a tank, so.....  I like chainswords more than bolters though, so I'll probably continue using them, but I think the auto bolter intercessors have a much higher amount of utility.

 

edit: frankly, I've always been a blood angels fan, so I keep wanting to play their stuff.  There's some cool stuff in their index they have until their real book comes out.  But the assault + charge from white scars just makes close combat marines so stupidly fast that I find myself building most of a blood angels list and thinking "wow, this would be way better if they were just white scars instead" and switching lmao.

Edited October 18, 2020 by durdle-durdle

[Riddlesworth]

in my turn, I used the canticle of hate and ran the assault intercessors, surviving bladeguard, and the characters towards the middle of the table (captain and chaplain did not run). I also used the stratagem to have the chaplain do a second litany (the WS litany, for rerolls to wound).

The new chaplain strat? Requires that you haven't already chanted a litany, so using it to get 2 litanies out of 1 dude isn't possible. You are right about Vox Espiritum though. The primaris biker chaplain and vox espiritum gives a massive aura reach. For white scars especially, mantra of strengthbeing available and assault doctrine means spending his relic pick on vox instead of benediction of fury much less of a tradeoff. He can go punch something if needed, but most of the time he can be popping reroll or charge boosting auras

 

From encirclement, my eradicators and inceptors came on his back board edge in the table quarter that was basically empty. We weren't sure if the inceptors could come on turn 1 (because they couldn't in 8th, but couldn't find a rule that directly stated they couldn't. This may have been a misplay, not sure).

Misplay on both units. Page 282 of the BRB details matched play rules. Strategic reserves and reinforcements can never arrive in the first battle round. The drop pod is the only unit that has an exception to this rule and it is specific. This possibly contributed to the massive alpha strike :)

 

Re: plasma inceptors. Anyone pairing them up with khan/captain on a bike? I feel like they're supper good at providing high quality shooting, tagging shooting units in combat and surviving (gravis armour strat), then withdrawing, shooting again (felines withdrawal) and drawing attention away from the units that are waiting til turn 3 to "turn on"

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I've 3 games recently using the new codex on TTS.  I won all 3, 2 of them were turn 1/2 wipeouts and 1 was a turn 5 epic as heck victory.  

 

The wipeout games have a pattern... against armies with poor screens you just get everything your way.  Everything in the enemy line gets disorganized, killed, and tied up.  Linebreaker, and domination are really good for WS and incursors are a invaluable since it allows your bikes to inflict damage rather than sit on midfield objectives.   Old marine bikes going to 3w is super strong and I consider them superior to outriders for damage dealing.  Outriders still have a place and are of course good.  Redemptor dreads are close to autoinclude in any marine list... -1 dmg is not immunity but it really hurts a lot of armies that rely(lol dark eldar can suck it,i hope they dont get a codex until 2027) on 2 dmg spam.  I have fielded a Whirlwind a few times and I feel it will be autoinclude if the meta is defined by aggressive close combat units.  Fight last is the most broken ability for close combat and using on key targets will win games.  However if games are super shooty i dont see whirlwinds being necessary just good. 

 

I haven't tried eradicators yet because I feel they are 100% stone cold guaranteed to get nuked from orbit by GW.  Either costing 80ppm or losing double shoot.  They just can't remain in their current state as being the most efficient shooting vs bikes,vehicles,monsters, heavy inf.  TBH I think tournaments should even consider a unit ban until we see what other codicies get to counter them.  I dont really how this could happen, there really isnt any design space for it.  Leman Russ tanks would need to be 24w or something stupid. 

 

TLDR:  Old bikes STRONG, Dreads STRONG, WS insta win without epic screening, eradicators STUPID.     

[Prot]

I have found eradicators good but I don’t see much of a nerf coming for them. My opponents play for them now. They screen out much better and in my last 3-4 games the never last more than a turn. 
 

the thing no one is keeping in mind this there’s one codex out right now. It feels like 8th all over again. 
 

As far as Astra is concerned, White Scars are fantastic against them. Astra is also one of the most swingy armies when talking about who goes first or second. This is a statistical fact. The difference in win loss for them going first or second is quite large right now. Also get your buddy to field multiple Manticores. They’re a very potent unit in most competitive lists. Astra is hard to play right now. I know of strong successes with them but they do require a strong player to use them against White Scars. 
 

Right now I think White Scars are enjoying an excellent spot. Again with no other codexes updated, it’s hard to say where this plays out in the long run so I say enjoy it for today!

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I have found eradicators good but I don’t see much of a nerf coming for them. My opponents play for them now. They screen out much better and in my last 3-4 games the never last more than a turn. 

 

the thing no one is keeping in mind this there’s one codex out right now. It feels like 8th all over again. 

 

As far as Astra is concerned, White Scars are fantastic against them. Astra is also one of the most swingy armies when talking about who goes first or second. This is a statistical fact. The difference in win loss for them going first or second is quite large right now. Also get your buddy to field multiple Manticores. They’re a very potent unit in most competitive lists. Astra is hard to play right now. I know of strong successes with them but they do require a strong player to use them against White Scars. 

 

Right now I think White Scars are enjoying an excellent spot. Again with no other codexes updated, it’s hard to say where this plays out in the long run so I say enjoy it for today!

I haven't faced guard yet but I really feel like most lists would be such easy pickings.  Maybe some really decked out plasma spam guard list could be scary or 300 infantry.  Other than that... they dont strike me as anything other than fresh meat atm.    

[Prot]

Guard have given my scars problems but they do need to go first against me. They’ve given my Ultras much more of a headache. As mentioned a really good player has to be using them. The stats are all over the place for them competitively in the 1700 or so recorded games. Screening and avoiding glass cannon units are big. Just again White Scars going first is a nightmare for Astra. 
 

Being fair, really only Harlequins (and perhaps Sisters) have truly better numbers than Scars right now.... still it’s so early in 9th. 
 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Guard have given my scars problems but they do need to go first against me. They’ve given my Ultras much more of a headache. As mentioned a really good player has to be using them. The stats are all over the place for them competitively in the 1700 or so recorded games. Screening and avoiding glass cannon units are big. Just again White Scars going first is a nightmare for Astra. 

 

Being fair, really only Harlequins (and perhaps Sisters) have truly better numbers than Scars right now.... still it’s so early in 9th. 

 

Have you faced guard with tons of 3w bikers yet?  

 

The list I ran recently was something a bit offbeat...

 

Outrider Detachment

 

Master of Sanctity on Bike,  chog storm,wise orator, relic mace, +2 charge litany, beat stick self buff litany.

 

10 incursors... combat squad'd 

5 intercessors with ABRs, thunderhammer

5 intercessors with ABRs, thunderhammer

 

6 bikers, 2 melta, thunderhammer

6 bikers, 2 melta, thunderhammer

6 bikers, 2 melta, thunderhammer

3 outriders

3 outriders

 

Redemptor Dread, plasma+onslaught

Redemptor Dread, plasma+onslaught

 

Whirlwind, 2d6 launcher... forgot the name.  The one that clears chaff.

 

Im going to experiment with this list some more... I found it fairly beefy with tons of 3w models that just dont die easy to the firepower that is out there.  In all the games I've gone first the results have been horrific for my opponents.  I have yet to face space clowns as they are not popular with the ppl i play regularly or in my local scene(this might change when nurgle's plague settles down).

Redemptor Dread, plasma+onslaught

[Prot]

The list is really good. No, I haven't tried masses of 3 wound bikers. Since the rules changed, I played one game using 3 Wound bikers (it was like one of yours except smaller, to compliment 2 x 3 Outrider squads.)

 

Just my personal opinion but I believe the 3 W bikers are a purely stronger option than the Primaris equivalents. (Outriders and ATVs).

 

What one of my Astra opponents did was take too many units that were big and required line of sight at the same time so in a few cases I would just box him in early, and tag his big tanks during consolidation moves and it was very frustrating for him. We talked about some changes and he immediately became more adept at screening, and using those key indirect units (Manticores especially). It made a big difference for him against an aggressive White Scars style list.

 

The real problem I saw locally for Astra players vs. my White Scars is two fold: 1 is they seem to be building 8th edition lists. So they just 'kill' well when given the chance. And 2: they have great difficultly with scoring primary and Scars do not give up secondaries easily.

 

This is why I keep saying.... just wait til more codexes are out. Marines getting end of 8th, beginning of 9th treatment just put things a little lopsided right now. 

 

For example, I started using Oath of Moment secondary. It's fantastic for marines. There is a Necron one (can't remember what it's called) where they score for preventing opponents' models from being in their quarters. A great one for Necrons. Every codex needs that.

 

I have one friend who plays Harlies... he knew they were going to be big and he's enjoying his moment in the sun.

 

For right now I am turning down my lists. I'm using some more fun units. Strong, but not going for a total board covering, strangle hold on my opponent. I still throw in that Repulsor to soak up points as well. 

 

It's just a courtesy I'm doing for my opponents until they get a leg up. Plus I prefer the challenge. To be fair there are some opponents that flat out can't deal with the speed of the army.

 

What I'm really curious about matching my Scars against is (in no particular order):

1. Wolves. Once they get their full treatment, they may have our number. Right now Wolves have wide representation but the stats support the idea that they are capable of top tier play, right now.

 

2. Blood Angels. They just always seem to pop up at the top. They have the advantage of accessing almost everything that matters out of the codex, but they will have their crazy advantages with multi wound first born once their supplement comes out this could push them over the top. (they are darn good now.)

 

3. Orks. These are like Wolves right now. Lots of play, and a lot of deviation in results, but 'good' Ork players are doing very well with horde style lists. When they get their codex this is my 3rd pick for "what gives White Scars issues."

 

4. Daemons. Kind of a wonky one, but they are top tier as well. I think they play the "White Scars Game" very well. This is always going to be a tough match up depending on who goes first. They do board control exceptionally well.

 

For now I find this strange paradox.... my Ultra's need to use whatever they have at their disposal (in my local meta) to really do well, whereas I am turning down my White Scars in most of those match ups. (I just did a mini report in the UM section on a game I had vs. Nids. I was shocked how effective the Nids were against my UM. The Scars probably would not have had the same problems.)