51 replies to this topic

[JimVandy85]

Heys guys and dolls,

Since it has been hinted that Cawl toyed with traitor gene seed during the primaris project, what are everyone's thoughts on recreating the 17th legion in primaris form? Given that the wider imperium is unaware of the horus heresy, how would this be received?

EDIT: mods, can this be moved to the general space marine forum? Accidentally posted in black templars subforum.

Edited by JimVandy85, 22 July 2020 - 02:05 PM.

[AHorriblePerson]

The Horus Heresy is a collection of legends for most of the Imperium, sure - but that doesn't mean that a chapter with all that pre-Lorgar heraldry will just be waved through by, say, Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus, fellow space marine chapters or even Guilliman himself. 40k is a setting filled with paranoia and distrust, and so these guys would immediately find themselves at gunpoint of a dozen different factions. Plus, it is kinda unoriginal. Taking a bit of inspiration from the traitor legions is a great idea, hinting at the possibility of stemming from traitor geneseed is fine too (ADB had an interesting interview about the matter a while back).

 

Maybe it'd be a good call to read up on the homebrewing guides here on the Liber subforum and go from there. That said, it's still your chapter, your army and your idea - you can always just follow through with it, even if it's disagreeable.

Edited by AHorriblePerson, 29 August 2020 - 01:42 AM.

[JimVandy85]

Thanks for your reply and you bring up some very good points.

[KBA]

My favourite guide has been the Octaguide. While somewhat dated due to the Great Rift event, a lot of the guidelines are still appropriate IMHO. Definitely a good resource, along with having the Lexicanum open in another tab for lore searches

Edited by KBA, 22 July 2020 - 05:18 PM.

[tychobi]

This sounds like a great plan! 40k is a big universe that is inconsistent as a feature so do not worry about reception. Your reception will hinge on how awesome your models look! The passion required to see an army project through to the end is considerable. Good luck!

[Bjorn Firewalker]

My suggestions:

After the Great Rift opens, a new Chapter is founded, with Black Templars as its training cadre. The Templars decide to "blood" this new Chapter on a hunt for Ork warbands that retreated from Armageddon, after the Third War; the new Chapter names itself "Heralds of Armageddon" as a statement of their intent to avenge the desecration of an Imperial world. The Heralds believe themselves an Imperial Fists successor whose gene-seed deficiencies were corrected via Cawl's genius; they worship the Emperor as a god, like their Black Templars training cadre (or the pre-Heresy Word Bearers); and choose to paint their armor gray (like pre-Heresy Word Bearers), as a sign of humility.

That should introduce enough ambiguity regarding your IA Chapter's Primarch.

Edited by Bjorn Firewalker, 22 July 2020 - 08:52 PM.

[The_Bloody]

My suggestions:
After the Great Rift opens, a new Chapter is founded, with Black Templars as its training cadre. The Templars decide to "blood" this new Chapter on a hunt for Ork warbands that retreated from Armageddon, after the Third War; the new Chapter names itself "Heralds of Armageddon" as a statement of their intent to avenge the desecration of an Imperial world. The Heralds believe themselves an Imperial Fists successor with gene-seed deficiencies were corrected via Cawl's genius; they worship the Emperor as a god, like their Black Templars training cadre (or the pre-Heresy Word Bearers); and choose to paint their armor gray (like pre-Heresy Word Bearers), as a sign of humility.
That should introduce enough ambiguity regarding your IA Chapter's Primarch.

Or, you see, make them an official Successor of the Ultramarines.
Oh, the delicious irony!

JimVandy85: I am a fan of the idea. It's pretty clear that Cawl had fun with Traitor Geneseed, so I think this kind of stuff makes more sense for Ultima than for any other founding.
I'm doing something pretty similar for my not-Warhounds Primaris Chapter

Edited by The_Bloody, 22 July 2020 - 06:02 PM.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Or, you see, make them an official Successor of the Ultramarines.
Oh, the delicious irony!

I thought of doing so, and naming the new Chapter "Heralds of Ultramar". The problem: Guilliman will NEVER allow his sons to go against the Imperial Truth and worship the Emperor as a god. The Templars, on the other hand...

[JimVandy85]

My suggestions:

After the Great Rift opens, a new Chapter is founded, with Black Templars as its training cadre. The Templars decide to "blood" this new Chapter on a hunt for Ork warbands that retreated from Armageddon, after the Third War; the new Chapter names itself "Heralds of Armageddon" as a statement of their intent to avenge the desecration of an Imperial world. The Heralds believe themselves an Imperial Fists successor with gene-seed deficiencies were corrected via Cawl's genius; they worship the Emperor as a god, like their Black Templars training cadre (or the pre-Heresy Word Bearers); and choose to paint their armor gray (like pre-Heresy Word Bearers), as a sign of humility.

That should introduce enough ambiguity regarding your IA Chapter's Primarch.

I like this idea! My original thought was to use the templar rules for them.

[JimVandy85]

My suggestions:
After the Great Rift opens, a new Chapter is founded, with Black Templars as its training cadre. The Templars decide to "blood" this new Chapter on a hunt for Ork warbands that retreated from Armageddon, after the Third War; the new Chapter names itself "Heralds of Armageddon" as a statement of their intent to avenge the desecration of an Imperial world. The Heralds believe themselves an Imperial Fists successor with gene-seed deficiencies were corrected via Cawl's genius; they worship the Emperor as a god, like their Black Templars training cadre (or the pre-Heresy Word Bearers); and choose to paint their armor gray (like pre-Heresy Word Bearers), as a sign of humility.
That should introduce enough ambiguity regarding your IA Chapter's Primarch.

Or, you see, make them an official Successor of the Ultramarines.
Oh, the delicious irony!

JimVandy85: I am a fan of the idea. It's pretty clear that Cawl had fun with Traitor Geneseed, so I think this kind of stuff makes more sense for Ultima than for any other founding.
I'm doing something pretty similar for my not-Warhounds Primaris Chapter

That would be absolutely hilarious if I didnt hate ultramarines to the point that I dont even want to own their book.

[Medjugorje]

@Bjorn firewalker… Guilliman are not the master of the legion anymore. If a chapter has that beliefs then they fallow this Creed. It doesnt matter what geneseed they are from. Its like ADB said in a interview that many of the later foundings have Nothing what Bounds them with the ultramarines. They are just made out of those geneseed.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

@Bjorn firewalker… Guilliman are not the master of the legion anymore. If a chapter has that beliefs then they fallow this Creed. It doesnt matter what geneseed they are from. Its like ADB said in a interview that many of the later foundings have Nothing what Bounds them with the ultramarines. They are just made out of those geneseed.

As this IA Chapter is most likely of the Ultima Founding, i.e., founded after Guilliman was resurrected and named Lord Regent of the Imperium, it will seem out-of-character for a supposed Ultramarines descendant to disobey the Primarch's orders. If Guilliman said, "Don't worship the Emperor as a god," and the IA Chapter did so anyways, other Ultramarines descendants will denounce the IA Chapter for disobeying the Primarch's direct order, with consequences ranging from refusing to aid the IA Chapter if disaster befalls its Marines, to possible vigilante attacks.

[gripschi]

The Ultima Founding is a Special Breed. The oldest Chapters Not older then 100 Years.

I am with Björn, Lord Guillaume, would Not be Happy with it. It goes against the Spirit of His Gene Line.

Give them snother 1000 Years, then its possible for shifts.

[JimVandy85]

I was thinking that since we have a chapter called sons of the Phoenix, who may or may not be emperors children, what about the Scions of Aurelian? Since this was the name used for lorgar within the legion and not really amongst the wider imperium.

[Lysimachus]

Hmm, Phoenix could refer to Fulgrim, but it could be just the mythical creature too. I'm not sure if Aurelian might be too specifically talking about Lorgar though... maybe something simple like 'Golden Sons/Scions'?

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Hmm, Phoenix could refer to Fulgrim, but it could be just the mythical creature too. I'm not sure if Aurelian might be too specifically talking about Lorgar though... maybe something simple like 'Golden Sons/Scions'?

In Aaron Dembski-Bowden's works, Marines from Imperial Fists successor Chapters referred to their Primarch as the "Emperor's Golden Knight", as Dorn wore golden armor during the Great Crusade (he repainted his armor the black of mourning post-Heresy). How about "Golden Knights", "Gold Paladins", "Golden Swords", "Golden Warriors" (taking inspiration from this title), or other martial name?

[The_Bloody]

I was thinking that since we have a chapter called sons of the Phoenix, who may or may not be emperors children, what about the Scions of Aurelian? Since this was the name used for lorgar within the legion and not really amongst the wider imperium.

That's a little too... explicit, in my opinion.
There is no ambiguity at all: just imagine Guilliman reviewing his crusade forces and stumbling upon THAT name. The Delete button would be pushed very fast against them AND Cawl

Edited by The_Bloody, 29 July 2020 - 12:29 AM.

[JimVandy85]

So after rereading the horus heresy black book, Massacre, I'm thinking of basing the chapter off of the pre lorgar imperial heralds. For a name, I'm thinking of "Harbingers of Judgment." Possibly hailing from a feral world known for its warrior class.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

For a name, I'm thinking of "Harbingers of Judgment." Possibly hailing from a feral world known for its warrior class.

Great name!

[JimVandy85]

For a name, I'm thinking of "Harbingers of Judgment." Possibly hailing from a feral world known for its warrior class.

Great name!

Thanks, Bjorn! I thought it sounded sufficiently sinister based on the lore. So, I have a name. I need to come up with more information. I know that I want to paint them the granite grey of the legion.

[Gamiel]

So after rereading the horus heresy black book, Massacre, I'm thinking of basing the chapter off of the pre lorgar imperial heralds. For a name, I'm thinking of "Harbingers of Judgment." Possibly hailing from a feral world known for its warrior class.

 

With the pre-Lorgar Imperial Heralds theme could you go with that they believes in the old Imperial Truth of atheism and science, possibly fanatically. They are possibly disdainful toward the Ecclesiarchy and anything they see as superstition.

 

You could also lean on their feral world origins and have them doing some strange/savage practices. Which could contrast nicely with an otherwise civilized Chapter culture.

[Karhedron]

If Guilliman said, "Don't worship the Emperor as a god," and the IA Chapter did so anyways, other Ultramarines descendants will denounce the IA Chapter for disobeying the Primarch's direct order, with consequences ranging from refusing to aid the IA Chapter if disaster befalls its Marines, to possible vigilante attacks.

The problem is that Guilliman has to tread very carefully on the subject of the Emperor's divinity and the Imperial Truth. He needs the loyalty of the Echlesiarchy to keep the Imperium together and he cannot afford to go all aethiest in public. He might have reservations about any particularly zealous religous Chapters but he could not afford to censure them for that alone unless they start to exhibit any of the usual warning signs (geneseed instability, or treachery).

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

This sounds like a great plan! 40k is a big universe that is inconsistent as a feature so do not worry about reception. Your reception will hinge on how awesome your models look! The passion required to see an army project through to the end is considerable. Good luck!

 

You may have the wrong forum. The Liber is entirely about theorycrafting about how a custom DIY can fit into the established settings lore as seamlessly as possible - primarily handling the suspension of disbelief -  while still creating something that is yours.

 

This forum is probably the least swayed by how well painted your minis are and while you may be a master painter, if your ideas are - for lack of a better term - flawed, you'll receive some (hopefully constructive) criticism.

[JimVandy85]

That's the thing, I want to ensure that it fits into established lore to the point that it's believable. As far as this being an ultima founding, I havent decided whether or not to make this chapter with firstborn marines as part of maybe the Dark founding since a lot of information about the chapters established then is not readily available or unknown. There are lots of things to consider when doing this and I am trying to do as much research as possible.

[Brother Cambrius]

Now there has been some rumour and discussion on the Sons of the Phoenix being "I Can't Believe It's Not Imperial Heralds/Word Bearers!" Primaris, despite claiming their origins from the Sons of Dorn.

 

So the concept isn't too extreme. However blatantly calling them the "Imperial Heralds", despite many not knowing that name as being the original for the XVIIth Legion is a bit of a stretch. Especially as Guilliman is around and he vividly remembers those traitors and their original name after what atrocities they committed to his sons and realm on Calth and beyond.

 

So I'd say go with the idea, but I'd strongly recommend changing the name to something similar as that is the really big outlier on breaking immersion for readers.

 

Cambrius