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Imperial Heralds Primaris Chapter


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#26
Bjorn Firewalker

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So the concept isn't too extreme. However blatantly calling them the "Imperial Heralds", despite many not knowing that name as being the original for the XVIIth Legion is a bit of a stretch. Especially as Guilliman is around and he vividly remembers those traitors and their original name after what atrocities they committed to his sons and realm on Calth and beyond.

So I'd say go with the idea, but I'd strongly recommend changing the name to something similar as that is the really big outlier on breaking immersion for readers.

Good points. I wish more people put in at least this much thought into their works- hell, even Games Workshop's own writers drop the ball at times!
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#27
Brother Cambrius

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Good points. I wish more people put in at least this much thought into their works- hell, even Games Workshop's own writers drop the ball at times!

 

 

We are only human after all. msn-wink.gif

 

It's why we exist in the Liber to politely advise and help people as they request, providing our feedback with friendliness and constructive discussion over the more caustic and flippant methods beyond this website. 

 

Cambrius


Edited by Brother Cambrius, 30 August 2020 - 01:33 AM.

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#28
Gederas

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For everyone saying this idea is a bit much:

Check out the Space Marine Conquests novel Apocalypse (the one with the Imperial Fist, Raven Guard and White Scar on the cover).

 

Major spoilers for that novel but:

Spoiler

 

Because of him, some fans have

Spoiler


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#29
AHorriblePerson

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The Anchorite returned to his cell after the Battle of Almace, though. That aside, it's usually better to not intertwine a homebrew too closely with canon factions or individuals.
I'm not saying the OP should ditch the idea completely, but the Anchorite angle seems like a bad idea.

#30
Gederas

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The Anchorite returned to his cell after the Battle of Almace, though. That aside, it's usually better to not intertwine a homebrew too closely with canon factions or individuals.
I'm not saying the OP should ditch the idea completely, but the Anchorite angle seems like a bad idea.

Like I said, there's been some (really well-written) fan fluff of Guilliman going to Almace and telling the Anchorite to lead a torchbearer fleet of Imperial Herald Primaris to the Imperium Nihilus.
 

 

Since linking to 1d4chan isn't allowed, lemme post the bit of fluff I'm referring to:

Spoiler

Edited by Gederas, 30 August 2020 - 03:11 PM.

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#31
Brother Lunkhead

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Subject: Imperial Heralds/Harbingers of Judgement

 

Greetings Brother JimVandy85

 

I've been watching this idea of yours unfold since your first post, but unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of viewteehee.gif) haven't been able to participate in the very interesting discussion. For what it's worth, here are my thoughts.

 

I've always liked the idea of creating a loyalist Astartes chapter from traitor gene seed, especially the XVII Legion, Word Bearers (my favorite traitors).

The biggest challenge is in creating a plausible narrative to support the creation. There are so many obstacles to overcome. I encourage you to continue on this rocky path. You will come out the other end of this journey a much better story teller and a product to be truly proud of.

 

13th (Dark) Founding

 

This might be your easiest difficult path. There are many unknowns about this founding, which leaves you with a lot of wiggle room to create (I think a deliberate choice by GW for just that reason). One possible idea is that one dodgy sect of the AdMech participating in developing these Space Marines used WB geneseed in their brew and are still watching over their creation all these millennia later. Perhaps they are able to intercept or switch geneseed tithe so no one is ever the wiser. Bureaucracies and special interests being what they are, this is plausible. By the time of the splitting of the galaxy, your chapter has had plenty of time to heap glory and good deeds on themselves and earn a decent reputation. Joining Guilman's crusade early, they gain greater glory and thus earn a spot in the short line for Primaris goodies.

 

Ultima Founding

 

This will be a harder difficult path. Before I get started here, let me me dispel the fan myth that Cawl was actually working with traitor geneseed and may have created Primaris Marines using said geneseed. This myth (as far as established official lore thus far) evolved from one conversation between Cawl and Guilliman in the novel Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. In that conversation Cawl broaches the subject of creating Primaris from traitor geneseed. Guilliman says, 'NO' and Cawl says, 'Okay Boss'.

 

There's no doubt Cawl possessed traitor geneseed (he had complete access to the AdMech Space Marine gene bank) and he could have gone behind Gilliman's back and used it anyway. In doing this, if discovered, he will almost certainly at the very least, lose the patronage of the Imperial Regent and his protector, and end up being burned at the stake by the Admech. Now, he could still do this anyway, but the lore does not support this..... thus far.

 

But, don't let that stop youno.gif

 

One course to take is to be subtle. Don't ever directly state that your chapter is founded with XVII Legion geneseed. You can hint at this with various details in your story, but never actually admit to it.

 

Another idea is Cawl creates this group of Primaris with direct but clandestine support from the Primarch for a specific purpose. Emperor knows Guilliman has broken a whole lotta rules (with the Emperor's approval of coursewhistling.gif ) since his resurrection.

 

Well, that's my two cents on the issue. Something else I think would be helpful, take all of the ideas you've put together for your chapter thus far and create a rough draft article here. That will help you put all of your ideas together and it will give us a single point to look at what you have to provide better focused C&C.

 

Keep on keepin' onthumbsup.gif


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 30 August 2020 - 07:10 PM.

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#32
Gamiel

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Do you want them to know they are Imperial Heralds gene-stock?

 

If not, so is the 13th really good since you don't really have to explain anything to why IH gene-seed was used, just drop a cryptic comment or two. That also gives you plenty of time for history, heroism, tragedy and internal culture to develop.

 

At the same time so would they probably not know their gene-linage either if they were from the Ultima Founding.

 

If you want them to know their gene-linage so would probably the best idea that I can think of be that they are from the second or maybe third founding, originally made up by small number of loyal Word Bearers that was secretly given the right to continue to fight for the Emperor. With this idea so could you have a Dark Angel like organisation where only the veterans of the chapter knows their dark secret of being traitor kin.

 

 

 

If you are still going with the idea that they recruit from a Feral World would something you could play with be if their recruitment world have left so much of a mark on them that they are in practise techno-barbarians, maybe they are even more of barbarians then the SW in all their ways but religious where they either are atheists and firm believers of the old Imperial Truth of rationality and science, or if they believe in the Emperor as a god could you have that their religious rites are advanced and more civilized than many of the ecclesiarchy's.

 

Another way could be that they are a civilized Chapter but have some strange practises that have passed to them from their recruitment world, and/or their religious rites are barbaric and savage.



#33
Gederas

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Ultima Founding

 

This will be a harder difficult path. Before I get started here, let me me dispel the fan myth that Cawl was actually working with traitor geneseed and may have created Primaris Marines using said geneseed. This myth (as far as established official lore thus far) evolved from one conversation between Cawl and Guilliman in the novel Dark Imperium by Guy Haley. In that conversation Cawl broaches the subject of creating Primaris from traitor geneseed. Guilliman says, 'NO' and Cawl says, 'Okay Boss'.

 

There's no doubt Cawl possessed traitor geneseed (he had complete access to the AdMech Space Marine gene bank) and he could have gone behind Gilliman's back and used it anyway. In doing this, if discovered, he will almost certainly at the very least, lose the patronage of the Imperial Regent and his protector, and end up being burned at the stake by the Admech. Now, he could still do this anyway, but the lore does not support this..... thus far.

Iirc, the actual line is Cawl had all 20 Legions worth of gene-seed and HAD made Primaris from all 20 Legions and that Guilliman told him not to deploy the ones made from Traitor Legions as well as II and XI's



#34
JimVandy85

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I've been doing a lot of research. Maybe trying to base the culture off an ancient one or something like that. Hitting a bit of a roadblock though. This is proving more difficult than I thought.

#35
gripschi

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I've been doing a lot of research. Maybe trying to base the culture off an ancient one or something like that. Hitting a bit of a roadblock though. This is proving more difficult than I thought.

Is a valid and fine decsion. I have done it too. I too run in a block once, i had want to many things i want to incoperate. I have now a Culture which is a bit Steampunk i guess. They have Huge Industrial Cities and a medival Socitey with Knights, Castles and a unfree worker population and a huge burreau. All in one or another form involved with others.

 

Just choose the one which appeal you the most.



#36
Brother Lunkhead

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Iirc, the actual line is Cawl had all 20 Legions worth of gene-seed and HAD made Primaris from all 20 Legions and that Guilliman told him not to deploy the ones made from Traitor Legions as well as II and XI's

 

 

Boyoboy do I HATE to be wrongverymad.gif but it looks like I was a little short on being rightblush.png Looks like you were mostly correct on this one Brother Gederasyes.gif Cawl did indeed experiment with the gene-seed of all 20 Legions. This is born out in the discussion between Cawl Inferior and Guilliman in Dark Imperium (pp 224-225 TPB v).

 

Spoiler

 

Where "subjects" full Primaris or some experimental hybrid bred/developed for research is open to interpretation. But the point is he was indeed experimenting with the gene-seed, and felt confident enough to begin production. However, Guilliman probably read Jurassic Park and understood that confident genetic scientists can be a dangerous creatureteehee.gif

 

However, I still stand by my original conclusion. Cawl actually producing Primaris from this gene-stock without sanction from Guilliman would be and act of treason, that the Imperial Regent could not ignore. If you choose this path, there's a little wiggle room, but not much.

 

 

Do you want them to know they are Imperial Heralds gene-stock?

 

If not, so is the 13th really good since you don't really have to explain anything to why IH gene-seed was used, just drop a cryptic comment or two. That also gives you plenty of time for history, heroism, tragedy and internal culture to develop.

 

At the same time so would they probably not know their gene-linage either if they were from the Ultima Founding.

 

If you want them to know their gene-linage so would probably the best idea that I can think of be that they are from the second or maybe third founding, originally made up by small number of loyal Word Bearers that was secretly given the right to continue to fight for the Emperor. With this idea so could you have a Dark Angel like organisation where only the veterans of the chapter knows their dark secret of being traitor kin.

 

 

 

If you are still going with the idea that they recruit from a Feral World would something you could play with be if their recruitment world have left so much of a mark on them that they are in practise techno-barbarians, maybe they are even more of barbarians then the SW in all their ways but religious where they either are atheists and firm believers of the old Imperial Truth of rationality and science, or if they believe in the Emperor as a god could you have that their religious rites are advanced and more civilized than many of the ecclesiarchy's.

 

Another way could be that they are a civilized Chapter but have some strange practises that have passed to them from their recruitment world, and/or their religious rites are barbaric and savage.

 

I still think the Thirteenth Founding is your best bet. The Second and Third Foundings were most likely highly monitored. The Second due to the chronological proximity to the Horus Hersy, and the Third as well, because this was the first true expansion of Space Marine chapters and not just a division of the Legions. The short story, The Aegidan Oath by L.J. Goulding gives some context to this, as well as how to slip a new chapter into a founding to avoid awkward questions.... and it's a good read besides.

 

Brother Gamiel's Dark Angels angle is an excellent ideathumbsup.gif Perhaps only the higher tier of command knows the secret.

 

 

I've been doing a lot of research. Maybe trying to base the culture off an ancient one or something like that. Hitting a bit of a roadblock though. This is proving more difficult than I thought.

 

The harder the task, the greater the glory in solving it..... hang in there and proceed as you see fit.


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#37
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So Brother Lunkhead and Gederas has provided some excellent additional content to mull over to help forge this chapter into a fine creation of character and history.

 

The 13th Founding would be a great start off point as has been echoed already, plus you have plenty of time to play with in the chapter growing their own bits of unique personality and such from their time serving the Light of the Emperor and such. There's some interesting potential toys to play with, including the Age of Apostasy and the removal of "Men at Arms" within the Ecclesiarchy, which could have left your boys to be removed from acting overtly closely with them as a result, choosing to go forth and bring the light of the Emperor to rebellious systems etc as per the Heralds did during the Great Crusade, prior to Monarchia.

 

Gamiel's idea of the Dark Angels is also a fun bit of flavour you can play with too, alongside the techno-barbarism to help keep a unique spin to them to prevent critical eyes from the Imperial Regent when he returned. Keeping them in the Imperium Nihilus is also a good barrier to prevent their true origins being found out, as loyal Astartes are even more of a precious commodity than before.

 

Forging your own chapter, especially with a tough challenge as the one you've set out is a grind. But when you complete it to a point you are satisfied with, it's a wonderful feeling of accomplishment, so don't give up JimVandy! :tu:

 

Cambrius


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#38
Gamiel

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@JimVandy85 If you want to go with them being very barbaric and religious, or at least barbaric in their religius rites, could you look at how Cesar (and other Romans) describe the religious rites of the Celts and other Barbarians (maybe they create wicker men and put living, captured enemies in it before putting it on fire as a sacrifice to the Emperor) or pulp authors depictions of barbarians’ religious rites but have them doing it to honour the Emperor instead of their own gods (Robert E. Howard’s ‘The Black Stone’ has some good very barbaric religious rites to a toad-like monster).

 

 

On the other hand, if you want them to be civilized and religious, or at least civilzed in their religius rites, could you look at organized religion, and the religious rites of high civilizations. Even if the Ecclesiarchy is mostly based on a Gothic/Protestantic idea of the Catholic Church does that not mean that all of it is Catholic-ish or that SM religious rites need to be. Maybe their rites are based on Greek Orthodox Church, Shinto, Babylonian or Tibitan Buddhist rites? Or maybe they are Catholic in non-Gothic ways?


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#39
JimVandy85

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I haven't forgotten this idea. Lately, I've been thinking that my chosen name, Harbingers of Judgment, would fit a Night Lords successor more so than the Word Bearers. I also think that maybe coming up with the lore for this might be more manageable. Thoughts?

#40
AHorriblePerson

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The name might be more reminiscent of the Night Lords, but that doesn't meant it can't work for your Homebrew too. Names sounding like one founding chapter or another is an imaginary dead end I've seen a surprising amount of homebrewers build for themselves - keep in mind that a successor chapter is never exactly like their primogenitor. There's always room for a bit of deviation.

 

That said, I do think 'Harbingers of Judgement' is long and kinda clunky. Maybe it'd be better to focus on the latter, more important part of the name and work with that. How about simply calling them the 'Grey Judges'? That way you can keep the essence of the name an work in a nod to their color scheme (if that's still what you want to go with), which is in turn a nod to their shadowed ancestry.


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#41
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I like the new name choice a lot! AHorriblePerson does bring up a good point on it sounding a touch clunky, but then we have other long-winded chapter names like the "Guardians of the Covenant" so it can work. 

 

If you wanted a few other options to match the style to help work out what you'd like to keep, may I also suggest the "Adjudicators" as a name? Possibly you could add an affix to the start, like Grey / Storm if you want to keep the colour theme.

 

Cambrius


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#42
Gamiel

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To me do Harbingers of Judgment work fine.

 

If you think that making them of Night Lords gene-stock will make it easier to come up with lore and such do I think you should make the change.


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#43
Brother Lunkhead

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I too see no problem with Harbingers of Judgement. If it doesn't sound Word Bearery enough for you, try something like Judgement Bringers, Heralds of Judgement, Seraphs of Judgement, Imperial Seraphs, just to throw out some names.

 

I haven't forgotten this idea. Lately, I've been thinking that my chosen name, Harbingers of Judgment, would fit a Night Lords successor more so than the Word Bearers. I also think that maybe coming up with the lore for this might be more manageable. Thoughts?

 

This begs the question, what kind of chapter do you want? Are you building your chapter around the name Harbingers of Judgement, around the idea of traitor gene-seed (and it doesn't really matter which one)? Do you have any solid ideas, or are you just picking through and developing ideas through this brainstorming session. Don't misunderstand, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this approach. It would be helpful if you sit back and think about this and then put together a rough outline for your chapter.

 

As for developing a chapter around the Night Lords, here are my two cents for what it's worth. A SM legion specializing in terror tactics had more of a place in M30 and the Great Crusade than in M41/42. At the time of the Crusade, terror tactics were a useful tool where bringing lost human civilizations into the Emperor's fold and dealing with a wider variety of xeno civilizations that might also be susceptible was a big thing. In M41/42, humanities primary enemies like Chaos (eats terror for breakfast), Orks (too stubborn and too stupid), Tyrannids (just doesn't register), Drukhari and Aeldari (both too arrogant, as they see humanity as barely sentient) just don't react to this tactic in the desired manner.

 

Just some things to consider.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 15 September 2020 - 10:28 PM.

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#44
Bjorn Firewalker

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As for developing a chapter around the Night Lords, here are my two cents for what it's worth. A SM legion specializing in terror tactics had more of a place in M30 and the Great Crusade than in M41/42. At the time of the Crusade, terror tactics were a useful tool where bringing lost human civilizations into the Emperor's fold and dealing with a wider variety of xeno civilizations that might also be susceptible was a big thing. In M41/42, humanities primary enemies like Chaos (eats terror for breakfast), Orks (too stubborn and too stupid), Tyrannids (just doesn't register), Drukhari and Aeldari (both too arrogant, as they see humanity as barely sentient) just don't react to this tactic in the desired manner.

Well said.

Don't forget the Necrons. Any Marine who tries (and fails) to use terror tactics against them, will surely repeat Talos' words regarding the frustration he felt fighting Skitarii in Soul Hunter: "Our skills are wasted fighting an enemy too inhuman to feel fear!"
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#45
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Since Curze seemed to have a twisted sense of justice and wanted to punish unjust dead can I see a NL successor that are built around the concept of them being (or at least seeing themselves as being) justice bringers and that would fit with the "Harbingers of Judgment" name.

 

If they suffer from the NL savagery and/or sadism could that be something they feel shame over and try to control. Maybe they, like the Blood Angels, try to keep it in check by doing some form of artistic endeavours? Or maybe they use constant mental trainings, meditations, revisiting the hypno-indoctrination chambers, reading the big book of justice and judgment to remind themselves what they are not allowed to do and/or similar to not suddenly indulge in their darker sides.


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#46
Brother Lunkhead

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Don't forget the Necrons. Any Marine who tries (and fails) to use terror tactics against them, will surely repeat Talos' words regarding the frustration he felt fighting Skitarii in Soul Hunter: "Our skills are wasted fighting an enemy too inhuman to feel fear!"

 

 

D'OHfacepalm.png How could I have forgotten the Necrons (Sorry Necrontyriansblush.png).

 

Since Curze seemed to have a twisted sense of justice and wanted to punish unjust dead can I see a NL successor that are built around the concept of them being (or at least seeing themselves as being) justice bringers and that would fit with the "Harbingers of Judgment" name.

 

If they suffer from the NL savagery and/or sadism could that be something they feel shame over and try to control. Maybe they, like the Blood Angels, try to keep it in check by doing some form of artistic endeavours? Or maybe they use constant mental trainings, meditations, revisiting the hypno-indoctrination chambers, reading the big book of justice and judgment to remind themselves what they are not allowed to do and/or similar to not suddenly indulge in their darker sides.

 

Anything is possible, but it seems more trouble than it's worth. Most of the other traitor legions started off from fairly straight forward military premises. The Night Lords looked more like the Emperor's dirty little secret. While terror is sometimes a necessary military tool, it should be only used sparingly and reluctantly. Whenever it has been used as a routine tactic/policy, it hasn't gone well. The NL's were generally shunned by the other Legions, and as presented in the literature, the long term results of the NL's work didn't look too optimal. As far as judgement bringers go, I think Imperial Heralds (Word Bearers) gene stock is your best bet.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 16 September 2020 - 05:00 PM.

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#47
AHorriblePerson

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Modern Space Marine Chapters have dedicated terror troops in the Reiver Squads, though. Psychological warfare is most definetely still a thing in the Era Indomitus. Don't forget the myriad threats that are susceptible to fear: Mortal followers of chaos (who are far more numerous than their post-human overlords and will most definetely feel dread), the Tau, Eldar of all types, mutants, Genestealer cultists and the myriad xenos species that aren't represented on the tabletop, but exist in the universe nonetheless. Hell, even Orks have been shown to be able to censored.gif their britches in absolute terror.

 

I don't think that a chapter excelling at terror tactics is any more difficult to write than the OP's previous ideas. I do think, however, that a chapter made from 8th legion geneseed that also happens to have the same strategic tendency warrants an explanation.


Edited by AHorriblePerson, 16 September 2020 - 10:46 PM.


#48
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Reivers are still hotly debated within the community as a necessity within the lore. They exist true, but ill conceived as a dedicated unit, I think.

 

Psychological warfare is a useful tool, but still somewhat limited in this universe we play in. In order for fear to be effective it must be sustained and allowed to spread for long enough for your forces to take proper advantage or for a population to become compliant. Tau, their allies, Imperial governments and  world in revolt (depending on the scenario) would probably be most susceptible. Just about anything inflicted on the Orks generally yields to rage and the drive to fight. Genestealer cults would probably quickly purge individuals adversely inflicted with fear. Chaos cultists are generally too zealous or too fearful of their masters. I've already expressed my views on the Eldar races. I still think a chapter bred from the gene-seed of a psychopath would have limited benefits and uses versus the risks (e.g. uncomfortable scrutiny from the Inquisition if they slip up and accidentally torture a planetary population to deatheek.gif Oopsy).

 

I'm not saying it can't be done, or Brother JimV would be wrong to go down this path. These are just issues to consider. Anyway, I don't want to derail this chapter discussion, so that's all I will say on this subject.


Edited by Brother Lunkhead, 17 September 2020 - 12:58 AM.

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#49
Gamiel

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Since Curze seemed to have a twisted sense of justice and wanted to punish unjust dead can I see a NL successor that are built around the concept of them being (or at least seeing themselves as being) justice bringers and that would fit with the "Harbingers of Judgment" name.
 
If they suffer from the NL savagery and/or sadism could that be something they feel shame over and try to control. Maybe they, like the Blood Angels, try to keep it in check by doing some form of artistic endeavours? Or maybe they use constant mental trainings, meditations, revisiting the hypno-indoctrination chambers, reading the big book of justice and judgment to remind themselves what they are not allowed to do and/or similar to not suddenly indulge in their darker sides.

 
Anything is possible, but it seems more trouble than it's worth. Most of the other traitor legions started off from fairly straight forward military premises. The Night Lords looked more like the Emperor's dirty little secret. While terror is sometimes a necessary military tool, it should be only used sparingly and reluctantly. Whenever it has been used as a routine tactic/policy, it hasn't gone well. The NL's were generally shunned by the other Legions, and as presented in the literature, the long term results of the NL's work didn't look too optimal. As far as judgement bringers go, I think Imperial Heralds (Word Bearers) gene stock is your best bet.
You seems to suggest that just because a Chapter is of Night Lords linage most it use terror tactics. Is that not like saying that just because a Chapter is of Ultramarine lineage most it be a Codex Chapter?

#50
Brother Lunkhead

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Nooope...... I'm sayin' that when your genetic code is derived from a psychopathic demi-god there might be some slippagewacko.png


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