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Wolves in the new marine codex


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#176
Bryan Blaire

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I think chapter specific box upgrades is well within the team of realism. Wasn’t it black Templar’s some years ago that had an upgrade book or I’m I thinking of something else. If you had a few chest plates that fit the current intercessors back on the torso, a few shine guards, then the usually weapons, heads, shoulder pads . And toss in some fur Pelts because why not.

Why not?

Because without conversion work, a chestplate that fits back plate 42 on the Intercessor sprue only fits on backplate 42. It doesn't fit 10, 18, 26, or 34. It doesn't fit Hellblasters back plate 21, 29, 38, 46, or 55. It certainly doesn't fit any of the Phobos or Gravis armors. It doesn't even take into account the Assault Intercessors, because we don't have the multiparts for the kit yet.

So that really limits the usefulness of chest plates on an upgrade sprue.

Greaves are going to be the same - they fit a leg pose.

Back plates with pelts are going to be exactly the same way, except they are limited to specific legs and breastplates (unless you model them to slip onto any backplate, but you still have to try and make sure the pelt doesn't strike legs in any leg pose, otherwise it isn't useful, and that would really limit the flow/pose capability of the pelt).

It's the nature of the more expressive poses on the Primaris.

So if you are having to make three breastplates for Intercessors, three for Hellblasters, two for Reivers, two for Incursors/Infiltrators, two for Aggressors, and then leg replacements, and back plate replacements, all for unique poses in other kits - you've started getting to the point where you might as well just make a new kit, because you're basically already making that many core replacements.

Even arms crossing the body gripping two hands on a weapon are going to be limited to certain poses in the Primaris line, as would anything with cables or ammo belts.

Single arms holding weapons, helms, pauldrons, talismans, belt hanging items, etc., are really the only upgrades that are safe for just about any pose.

------------

Folks really need to stop thinking that the Black Templars are somehow a cautionary tale for any of the Big Four - they aren't. They got one Codex, and it wasn't even the Edition they were the "poster boys" on the cover of the Edition start box. I know people like to crow about their popularity, etc., but while they might have had a cult following, they were never that important to GW in comparison to the Big Four.

Black Templars could be afforded to lose most of their uniqueness, the Big Four can't by much.

Let's not start acting like the BT forum and thinking hope is lost for the Wolves just because GW hasn't started releasing Chapter-unique Primaris units. Don't go down the "grim darkness" rabbit hole just yet. If GW hasn't released more Wolves unique units by 10th/11th Edition, or whenever the classic Marines Wolves boxes disappear forever, then we can start talking about how bad GW has treated them.
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#177
WickedJester1013

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I understand it’s not perfect, but an example of something they could easily implement if they wanted to. With more time and resources they could come up with a better idea. At the very least some more stylized shoulder pads, backpacks and weapons as well as heads would go along way.

#178
WickedJester1013

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Also I mention BT just because I remember them getting a conversion box some years ago. I’m loving wolves these days honestly and am excited to see them as a supplement because I’m very optimistic for the future.
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#179
Bryan Blaire

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I think what we will see in the future is going to be Primaris Chapter specific kits that make a specific unit for the Chapter - likely something Veteran, but that could be used to "upgrade" other kits. For instance, a Phobos unit that does something Wolfy, but you can swap Reiver/Incursor/Infiltrator arms and helms on to make those kits too, and maybe use some extra axes from the unit to kit out some Assault Intercessors or something. Maybe a Tacticus kit that has some pelts, some greaves, and some breastplates, all the poses making it a little easier to use bolt rifles and plasma incinerators, or less movement posed Assault Intercessors - or maybe it's running like Assault Intercessors, but still gives you a good base for firing on the move type poses.

They might even choose to do one kit of each armor type for the Wolves - it would still be less unique kits than the Wolves currently have, but would allow you to lend some more Wolf-ness to different squad types.

And if they were feeling froggy, yet another upgrade sprue with some new weapons (preferably unpowered) and pauldrons, helms, etc.

I have to think the a Primaris Wolf Priest, Rune Priest, and Iron Priest are all coming at some point as well.

I'm just not sure this is the end of the basic Primaris kits just yet - don't think we'll see much that's Chapter specific until all the generic stuff is done being released.

We also have to remember that they've increased their factory size - that's got to start playing into how many different kits they can make at once some time in the future.
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#180
StrangerOrders

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Since we are discussing the future and what this move could mean, we might as well address an interesting lore possibility.

 

Anyone else think that the Wolfspear and potentially new Wolf Successors might be coming with the Supplement? 

 

I remember seeing that hyped as one of the interesting fluff bits that might come out of Primaris and the Wolfspear have appeared in a book (well, their creation as the garrison for a lifeless rock which begs questions but thats neither here nor there). 

 

It would certainly be a neat possibility, even if one that might blow up given that the Primaris aren't actually wulfen-immune and might go Wolf Brothers in successors.

 

Know we've mostly talked rules and a bit of models so far but its worth commenting that we are seeing the first real lore update in a hot minute (Saga of the Beast was a bit... minimal on whats up with the chapter imo) and I'm curious what we might see. 

 

My most irrational fear is for Logan's safety, Im hoping he gets Rubicon'd since I'm quite partial to him.


Edited by StrangerOrders, 31 July 2020 - 03:49 AM.

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#181
Lord Blackwood

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Logans model was very recently updated so I  doubt they would have him  cross ,though in the same breath it would likely give us a Gravis Wolf Lord that looked absolutely insane.

S'far as successors go. 

The base codex allows custom successors taking lineage from a parent chapter in the rules.  

I would absolutely love for space wolves to be included in  that if it sticks around into the new codex , since as you bring up we have successors now. 



#182
WrathOfTheLion

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I think Logan is fine, as are most wolf lords.

Characters like Haraldr Deathwolf I could see them doing a character/wolf lord kit, similar to Lazarus for DA.

I am hoping for new transfers with more great companies, would love to do some deathwolves to go with my drakeslayers.

Successors would be quite cool. Not certain how they would work.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 31 July 2020 - 10:48 AM.

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#183
Jorin Helm-splitter

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I think if we new character it'll be either a rune priest model or they will have Njal cross the Rubicon. It's also possible they make something like the dark angel kit that can be either option.

Njal would free up some space in the codex be because he currently has two data sheet entries plus the raven with a key in the rumour engine looks like a psychic familiar (it doesn't appear to have a bionic eye but we only clearly see one side of it)


They each got around 16 and a few of those were universal so like 13 unique ones. We had that many in our codex alone. I'm pretty happy with the change in general so its not a huge drawback but I do expect to lose some.

Well, some of our unique stratagems are garbage. Which actually useful ones do you think will go away?

The main useful one I expect to lose is chooser of the slain, I just expect us to have the generic one instead. I also could see seeking a saga being dropped, and probably touch of the wild being updated so it's not quite as good.

#184
WickedJester1013

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I would love to see the wolf spears get some love. I recently decided to Use them as the basis of my models and even ordered some 3d printed spears to make some conversions.
Lore wise they are kinda poop. The only thing I could find is Bobby G told them to guard some sector and that they are disappointed they can’t really prove them selfs to the space wolves. But it got my thinking. How would successors fit in with the current Wolf companies? If they are on even footing does that mean a new annulus? Curious thoughts.

#185
clanfield

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I would love to see the wolf spears get some love. I recently decided to Use them as the basis of my models and even ordered some 3d printed spears to make some conversions.
Lore wise they are kinda poop. The only thing I could find is Bobby G told them to guard some sector and that they are disappointed they can’t really prove them selfs to the space wolves. But it got my thinking. How would successors fit in with the current Wolf companies? If they are on even footing does that mean a new annulus? Curious thoughts.

hi mate

don't confuse great company's with chapters the anulus would stay the same .

 

it would be fun to here more about the wolf spears and probable others.



#186
WickedJester1013

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Ah I see the error, question still stands. Will they then fall into a current lord? Will they be on even footing?

#187
Valerian

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A Successor Chapter is a completely different organization.  They'd have their own Chapter Master (Great Wolf), and their own Wolf Lords, for their own Great Companies (all assuming that they completely adopt the organizational structure of their primogenitor, which I expect that they would).  

 

They may treat Logan with extra regard as a "first among equals" with their own Great Wolf, like the Blood Angel's successors do with Dante, but that isn't a given.


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#188
Triszin

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Honestly, there hasn't been a peep out of any successors, I don't expect rules or acknowledgement of them anytime soon.
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#189
Spinsanity

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Rules-wise, it seems the Wolfspear are counted as true brothers, since the Wolves are apparently the only first founding Legion that doesn’t allow its successors to take on <Chapter> keywords of their own... Whereas all other Codice (SM, BA and DA) all tell you you should replace the relevant keyword with your successors’ Chapter name, the Wolves don’t, so either the Spear are still considered part of the Wolves (a “14th GC”) or GW just blows at writing a SW codex, again...

Edited by Spinsanity, 31 July 2020 - 05:45 PM.

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#190
Valerian

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Rules-wise they just haven’t bothered to implement a system for making Successors. So, you can make Wolfspear army using the Space Wolves rules, or any other Chapter rules that you see fit. Maybe they’ll implement a system in our upcoming supplement, maybe not.

#191
Rune Priest Jbickb

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I personally kinda like the no successor history, though I think having the wolf spear as a choice would be good. I dont actually see the wolf spear as a successor though they are just bonus space wolves made by cawl and put into their own chapter.
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#192
Valerian

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I personally kinda like the no successor history, though I think having the wolf spear as a choice would be good. I dont actually see the wolf spear as a successor though they are just bonus space wolves made by cawl and put into their own chapter.


Except for the “made by Cawl” part, that’s no different than how every Successor from all of the other Foundings were implemented.

#193
StrangerOrders

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I personally kinda like the no successor history, though I think having the wolf spear as a choice would be good. I dont actually see the wolf spear as a successor though they are just bonus space wolves made by cawl and put into their own chapter.


Except for the “made by Cawl” part, that’s no different than how every Successor from all of the other Foundings were implemented.

 

The Wolfspear sort of show up in the Dark Imperium novel, by which I mean you see their founding from the perspective of a Wolfspear Greyshield.

 

He at least was, in a word, not happy.

 

He was actually enraged.

 

It turns out that most Primaris were kind of raised on the hope of being assigned to their progenitor chapter (with some actually liking the mix-blood nature of the Greyshields better than the prospect of being crammed into foreign chapters).

 

If he was an example, at least until that point the Wolf Primaris were not even mildly concerned about it and actually kind of stubborn about being as 'wolf-y' as possible (although still friendly with the other Greyshields), totems and hairstyles and everything. 

 

The Primaris took the assignment as a slap to the face and was furious at what he took as a pseudo-exile from Fenris (which he had spent the previous chapter discussing about how excited he was to see again).

 

To paraphrase his reaction to the assignment "Who the #$%# are the Wolfspear?"

 

He might be the exception but yes the only example we have of a Primaris wolf successor is of him being livid at the posting.

 

So... not like alot of foundings at all, more reminiscent of Amit's anger at being 'exiled' to found the Flesh Tearers.


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#194
Valerian

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The point (of my post) isn't about how the Greyshields felt about it.  It was in general about how Foundings work.  The High Lords decide they want/need new Chapters, and the Administratum makes it happen.  Choose who'll be the primogenitor and take excess gene-seed from the tithes on Mars, and start building a cohort of new Marines to populate the new Chapter.  Requisition the equipment that they'll need, establish a "homeworld" for them, and get the Mentor Legion to help train up a leadership team.  Maybe borrow some officers from an earlier Founded Chapter with the same gene-heritage to provide upper-level leadership and management of the Chapter until they're up and running on their own.  

 

So, in this sense, the Wolfspear are similar to every other Founding, although the expectations of the Marines that were a part of the establishment of that Chapter may have been otherwise.  Only real difference this time is that they were Primaris, developed by Cawl, rather than Firstborn, established in the same way as Marine Chapters have been established for 10,000 years.


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#195
Wispy

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Folks really need to stop thinking that the Black Templars are somehow a cautionary tale for any of the Big Four - they aren't. 

 

 

i have mentioned this before, but around the time 5th Edition SW were in development, GW was already planning to discontinue Black Templars as part of future plans. 

 

Learned this at a tour of GWHQ with some other co-workers, back when i worked for Relic. They were doing all the photography for the 5e Space Wolves (to my excitement), and one of my friends played BT and asked if they were going to get a new Codex or models too. He was very disappointed with the answer.  


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#196
Wolf Guard Dan

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For what it’s worth all of the Indomitus Crusade models look more like Black Templar’s than anything else. They may not have the model support we have historically. They don’t run around on wolves or turn into wolves. Edit: so they probably didn’t need as much model support. Rules support is a whole different issue. Not to egg them on or anything. BT players seem like decent folks.

Edit: accidentally sent before finishing.

Edited by Wolf Guard Dan, 01 August 2020 - 05:00 PM.

*wolf howl*!!!!
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#197
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Its worth pointing out how much GW has changed since 5th edition as far as interaction. It felt like what fractions got models/codex had more to do with the amount of champions they had in the design/rules studios.

A ton of their recent success IMO is due to them engaging with us and asking us what we wanted. So a fraction like Black templars will start doing better eventually if the keep asking.

Wolf spear successor rules would be cool it's just a question of how well they can balance fitting everything into a marine dex and a supplement for us. Hopefully we get a page in the main codex detailing a couple of new chapters.
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#198
Dark Shepherd

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The ATV looks like a good nuisance value unit for us

Mobile and is powerful enough to claim lightly held objectives. Could divert anti tank weaponry too
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#199
Karhedron

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It seems to hit that sweet spot of utility. Cheap enough not to cause a sweat if it dies. Fast enough to reach objectives and targets. Tough enough that your opponent will need to dedicate a decent amount of firepower to remove it and just shooty enough that they will regret ignoring it. I expect to see plenty of these quite soon.
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#200
Fang_Guard23

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The special chapters getting supplements may be a good thing, could mean dedicated play testing to our own units to provide effective balancing. while the rest work with the space marine codex to handle things like the primaris marines. 


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