220 replies to this topic

[Schurge]

If terrain is as big a deal as GW says it is the new starter box may very well be worth it with less models. If it is priced the same as Dark Vengeance I will likely buy it regardless as I like GW terrain and want more bikers and running legs. If the new two lesser boxes ate priced the same as their 8th edition equivalents I may very well grab those as well. My initial plan was to sell my Necrons from Indomitus but now I am not so sure...

[Schurge]

I hope the bikes aren’t ETB only as a Ravenwing or White Scars army would look crazy repetitive.

It is easier to make ETB kits look unique then many would have you believe. It is very likely that the bikes in these starter boxes are ETB.

[Aarik]

I wonder if all the mats in the new starter sets are double sided and the same quality cardboard (as opposed to just paper or something) as the other similar mats GW has released.  Only the description of the Command level set says the mat is double sided, but it looks the same in all three pictures.  If GW didn't fumble the ball and the starter mats are all double sided and the same quality as the other cardboard mats, that means a newcomer picking up two starter sets will have enough mat space to play 1000 point games (with two different colors, the mars and the grey), and they can pickup the new battlezone mat pack to get them to 2000 point size. 

 

The only thing I'm surprised about is that the now-unique Indomitus sprue for each of the SM and Necrons didn't make an appearance in any of the sets.  I thought that each of those sprues plus a troops sprue for each side would have been a good highest-level box set.  That way a new player could work their way up by getting each of the starter sets and end up with three troops choices and a ~1000 point, varied army with no duplicates of everything else.  I guess since multi-part bladeguard (maybe with bits for an ancient too?) and apparently mutli-part eradicators are coming, they didn't want to step on their toes.  It's a shame that the gorgeous new chaplain will be hard to find, though.  He's so much better than the original one GW came out with.

 

I do also like that each of these boxes includes a mat and some form of terrain.  I picked up an Indomitus box for a couple friends to get them into the hobby, and terrain (and to a lesser extent, a play surface) is the only thing they're missing from being able to play right out of the gate and get the full Warhammer experience.  I'll probably try to pick up a set or two of the new starter terrain on eBay myself once it comes out.

[Chesh]

I like the terrain from the set, and that's a big plus for me to buy it.  I gave in to Indomitus in the end, even though I had no interest in Necrons,  but the starter with the terrain and new units, is making me considering that I will possibly keep hold of them.  Only problem is that I will end up with three rulebooks - as I bought the standalone one before deciding to go in on Indomitus.

Edited by Chesh, 27 July 2020 - 06:42 PM.

[firestorm40k]

These look nice, the two smaller sets are pretty much what I expected, but the mat/board and terrain in the 'Commander' (full) set is a welcome surprise. At some point I'll definitely pick that up, as I was looking at the Necrons more for Kill Team, and of the new Primaris I thought the Assault Intercessors and Outriders would fit best alongside the Primaris I already have.

Only slight disappointment is that the Eradicates and Skorpekh Lord aren't in these. But I bet the Eradicators are a new multi-unit kit (with the Heavy Intercessors, perchance?), and I'm sure there'll be another Skorpekh Lord released soon after.

Edited by firestorm40k, 27 July 2020 - 06:56 PM.

[Inquisitor Eisenhorn]

I was wondering what the non-limited starter set would look like and I think this is pretty great, and the Indomitus box makes more sense to me now, and why they said it wasn't for beginners.  Like, I was wondering why they were still hanging onto this release model of tons of units, but no terrain for a starter set for a game where terrain is necessary! 

 

If they just released the Commander as the new starter set, they would likely get complaints about how it's not as good of a value as Dark Imperium because of the relative lack of models.  But now they have an ongoing starter set that actually works for that purpose, and everyone who just gets the new edition box for the models value bought Indomitus.

[wildweasel]

My burning question is: Is the Commander rulebook:

 

A. The big book minus the extra matched plat and narrative rules (i.e. the Background, core rules, plust detachments, terrain, etc), or

 

B. The big book minus the background (i.e. all the rules stuff).

Cause if B I'm going to be all over that set. I got CA2020 but didn't realize it was a smaller format book and thus the it's like 6 point type >.<. Still more convenient than the Tome Indomitus, but if I can get a full size hardcover of the full rules including missions and Crusade etc, rad.

 

 

It is easier to make ETB kits look unique then many would have you believe. It is very likely that the bikes in these starter boxes are ETB.

 

 

Taking a look at the images, they are using the same models for the Starter Set contents as for Indomitus. Plus they will want to flog the heck out of the molds, so these are definitely going to be the same sprues.

 

I wonder if all the mats in the new starter sets are double sided and the same quality cardboard (as opposed to just paper or something) as the other similar mats GW has released.  Only the description of the Command level set says the mat is double sided, but it looks the same in all three pictures.  If GW didn't fumble the ball and the starter mats are all double sided and the same quality as the other cardboard mats, that means a newcomer picking up two starter sets will have enough mat space to play 1000 point games (with two different colors, the mars and the grey), and they can pickup the new battlezone mat pack to get them to 2000 point size. 

 

The only thing I'm surprised about is that the now-unique Indomitus sprue for each of the SM and Necrons didn't make an appearance in any of the sets.  I thought that each of those sprues plus a troops sprue for each side would have been a good highest-level box set.  That way a new player could work their way up by getting each of the starter sets and end up with three troops choices and a ~1000 point, varied army with no duplicates of everything else.  I guess since multi-part bladeguard (maybe with bits for an ancient too?) and apparently mutli-part eradicators are coming, they didn't want to step on their toes.  It's a shame that the gorgeous new chaplain will be hard to find, though.  He's so much better than the original one GW came out with.

 

I do also like that each of these boxes includes a mat and some form of terrain.  I picked up an Indomitus box for a couple friends to get them into the hobby, and terrain (and to a lesser extent, a play surface) is the only thing they're missing from being able to play right out of the gate and get the full Warhammer experience.  I'll probably try to pick up a set or two of the new starter terrain on eBay myself once it comes out.

 

The Commander description specifically refers to it coming with a board as opposed to a mat - so I would expect a poster  mat similar to what was in First Strike and Know No Fear in the lower level sets. Goes and scrubs through the video In fact, yeah, you can see the Commander surface is a board, while the Recruit one has the fold lines and warping of a poster mat.

As for the multi-unit sprues from Indomitus, I'm calling Start Collecting boxes sooner or later for each Faction consisting of that sprue and one of their Troops sprues (10 Warriors or 5 Assault Intercessors). Each box then has a couple of HQs, a Troop unit, and a couple of fancy things. This keeps the models unique to the sprue available and is more ROI for GW.

[MegaVolt87]

I hope that rulebook only cuts 100 pages of lore not anything else. Imagine having to buy the separate  rulebook for the full rules after getting a hardback book in a starter set which is undoubtedly increasing the box price as a result as a new player. GW has some cheek to sell the cardboard mat on its own without that new terrain as well. 

[Kierdale]

Nice.
I hope the three are similar prices to 8th edition’s three sets, though checking the contents again now I expect they’ll cost more.
The Recruit one has ten Necron Warriors, some kind of Necron character, the marine character and five assault marines.

First Strike: Six loyalist marines, three death guard and seven zombie-things.

I’ll pick one up anyway. I have no primaris yet, and the Necrons can be trophies and bits for my Orks.

[Master Sheol]

I hope the bikes aren’t ETB only as a Ravenwing or White Scars army would look crazy repetitive.

It is easier to make ETB kits look unique then many would have you believe. It is very likely that the bikes in these starter boxes are ETB.

The problemi about ETB models is not the modelling (i had 6 ETB reivers and Intercessors from Conquest and with bits from the multipart kits i made all of them look different) but from a rules point of view
Look at Suppressors from Shadowspear that didnt have a multipart kit
In the Codex they still are 3 men fixed squads without options
So i hope for a multipart kit to have more options and bigger squads for the Outsiders (and Suppressors too)

The bigger starter set is pretty intetesting in particolar combined with the smaller one
Putting them together you will have a regular 44*30 battlefield with some nove scenery and a good small rules only book
The models in the boxs make easily a 530 points of SM and if you add a Vanguard starter set you can easily have a 1000 points force

[AGPO]

My major concern is not for veterans - we got our starter sets years ago. Rather it's the absence for new players of a cheap and viable initial army. Dark Imperium plus know no fear have you two very solid forces for marines and death guard. For the equivalent with the new sets you'd need to add a full squad box, the recruit box and two independent characters for the marine side alone. That's around £100 of further investment just to get an equivalent sized army before you start bulking out with other kits and the usual 40k expenses (glue, paints, codex etc.)

Terrain is great if you play at home. A huge proportion of newer players however meet the people they play against in stores or clubs. The terrain isn't much use to them but not having a viable force is a huge barrier to participating in a lot of the events these places typically run. Once you've played out the starter scenarios and you want a proper game that hurdle is huge.

TL;Dr - 8e starter sets set you up to play 40k, these set you up to play the intro scenarios.

[Brother Dallo]

So combining the first two starter sets seems like a beginner friendly way to get two armies at 25 Power each:

Captain
Lieutenant
Intercessors x2
Outriders

Total 25 Power

Overlord
Royal Warden
Warriors x2
Destroyers

Total 25 Power

The Necron force actually makes 30 Power total if you include the Scarabs and the Plasmacyte.

Neither are necessary the “best” lists for 25 Power, but they’re good starting points and probably reasonably well balanced against each other (by dint of having two HQs, two units of troops and a unique unit each).

Dallo

[AGPO]

So combining the first two starter sets seems like a beginner friendly way to get two armies at 25 Power each:
Captain
Lieutenant
Intercessors x2
Outriders
Total 25 Power
Overlord
Royal Warden
Warriors x2
Destroyers
Total 25 Power
The Necron force actually makes 30 Power total if you include the Scarabs and the Plasmacyte.
Neither are necessary the “best” lists for 25 Power, but they’re good starting points and probably reasonably well balanced against each other (by dint of having two HQs, two units of troops and a unique unit each).
Dallo

I actually think the recruit box is an improvement on first strike, not least for containing legal units that people can keep using. Most places I've been though games take place between 50-100 power. Say you pick up know no fear and dark imperium - that's a 57 power death guard army and 59 points of marines not including duplicate characters. Doing the same with the Elite and Command boxes gets you 27 power of marines and 32 of necrons. That's a big difference to putting together the core of your first force. Even adding the vanguard start collecting box leaves you with just 45 power at an additional £60.

The merit of the older starter sets for me was that they introduced kids to the game and gave them the makings of a full sized army on the (relatively) cheap. Most kids don't have a ton to spend, so they're saving for the odd kit. They can add bits and pieces later but in the meantime they're going to be waiting months before they're able to take part in a lot of in store events. Of course, if they put the dark imperium box in a cheap start collecting along with a necron equivalent that issue is solved.

Edited by AGPO, 30 July 2020 - 08:52 AM.

[kitwulfen]

The models in each kit seem alright.  The middle version is about what you would expect in older kits like AoBR.  Without knowing the prices, can't say how much of a deal any of them is.

 

The lack of a soft cover pocket rulebook, as we saw in older starter boxes, is a serious negative in my opinion.  Those were very handy and I'm sad that any rulebook these days is wrapped up in trying to be a premium product when we all know it's gonna be sitting on a bookshelf in a few years next to all our other old rulebooks.

 

The high pressure, FOMO marketing around the Indomitus box is disgusting.  GW probably wouldn't have even told us when/where we could see Bladeguard veterans again if it hadn't been for the pic leak.  They're still leaving the other characters/everything else on the big Indomitus sprue up in the air.  Want those models?  Better BUYBUYBUY cause LAST CHANCE TO BUY and you don't know when you'll have a chance to get them again - if ever.

[Lucerne]

The models in each kit seem alright.  The middle version is about what you would expect in older kits like AoBR.  Without knowing the prices, can't say how much of a deal any of them is.

 

The lack of a soft cover pocket rulebook, as we saw in older starter boxes, is a serious negative in my opinion.  Those were very handy and I'm sad that any rulebook these days is wrapped up in trying to be a premium product when we all know it's gonna be sitting on a bookshelf in a few years next to all our other old rulebooks.

 

The high pressure, FOMO marketing around the Indomitus box is disgusting.  GW probably wouldn't have even told us when/where we could see Bladeguard veterans again if it hadn't been for the pic leak.  They're still leaving the other characters/everything else on the big Indomitus sprue up in the air.  Want those models?  Better BUYBUYBUY cause LAST CHANCE TO BUY and you don't know when you'll have a chance to get them again - if ever.

I'm wondering how long it'll take for recasters to have those models in stock for reasonable prices.

[Blindhamster]

 

The models in each kit seem alright.  The middle version is about what you would expect in older kits like AoBR.  Without knowing the prices, can't say how much of a deal any of them is.

 

The lack of a soft cover pocket rulebook, as we saw in older starter boxes, is a serious negative in my opinion.  Those were very handy and I'm sad that any rulebook these days is wrapped up in trying to be a premium product when we all know it's gonna be sitting on a bookshelf in a few years next to all our other old rulebooks.

 

The high pressure, FOMO marketing around the Indomitus box is disgusting.  GW probably wouldn't have even told us when/where we could see Bladeguard veterans again if it hadn't been for the pic leak.  They're still leaving the other characters/everything else on the big Indomitus sprue up in the air.  Want those models?  Better BUYBUYBUY cause LAST CHANCE TO BUY and you don't know when you'll have a chance to get them again - if ever.

I'm wondering how long it'll take for recasters to have those models in stock for reasonable prices.

 

Not that you're condoning that sort of thing here obviously, as i'm pretty sure it's against board rules...

Anyway, the starter sets all look pretty good IMO. I like that it would in theory make it easier for say - school clubs to get into it (keeping in mind GW provide a few freebies, but not enough to really run a club). I also like that it means parents looking to get something for a child who has taken an interest in the hobby, can choose a starting price point they feel comfortable with. It all feels good for accessibility.

 

 

The extra sprue in indomitus will almost certainly result in multipart eradicators (which may or may not be "heavy intercessors" as well), plus the multi part bladeguard we know about. I wouldn't be surprisd if we get a totally different Judicar model as a stand alone some time soon, and i imagine the bladeguard ancient and chaplain models will remain exclusive to the box - which isn't all that unusual, I could see the ancient being a build option in the bladeguard kit tbh, the chaplain already has a model, even if some people prefer the one in indomitus (I think both are nice personally).

Edited by Blindhamster, 28 July 2020 - 10:26 PM.

[MegaVolt87]

I think what was in indomnitus will show up next year model wise will be in start collecting boxes. I don't think they would be brazen enough to do it this year. These new starter boxes are very similar to the older ones. I think GW put indomnitus as a limited item because they didn't move enough of that big dark imperium box in 8th. I would argue dark imperium failed because of the initial primaris backlash, also DG were lambasted as cartoony in the studio scheme. Primaris are more established, necrons are actually a darling army of the community like BT's. GW just either didn't read the room or didn't believe their market research. 

[Blindhamster]

I think what was in indomnitus will show up next year model wise will be in start collecting boxes. I don't think they would be brazen enough to do it this year. These new starter boxes are very similar to the older ones. I think GW put indomnitus as a limited item because they didn't move enough of that big dark imperium box in 8th. I would argue dark imperium failed because of the initial primaris backlash, also DG were lambasted as cartoony in the studio scheme. Primaris are more established, necrons are actually a darling army of the community like BT's. GW just either didn't read the room or didn't believe their market research. 

pretty sure Dark Imperium sold more than any other edition, Indomitus just utterly demolished its sales though.

I doubt we'll get a start collecting set for the indomitus stuff, because it doesn't fit as neatly. Vanguard is specifically just vanguard models (i.e. phobos ones), Indomitus doesn't fit that mold.

[Feral_80]

Elite box could have done without the board - it is so small that it ends up completely cramped even in the demo pic, to the point that having bikes there almost looks like a joke. Where are they going to turbo exactly, on a battlefield where you start 6" apart from the enemy? ^__^"

Also, since Elite is aimed at established players the board is further unlikely to be necessary.

Anyway, with these sets everything depends on the price of course.

[Ishagu]

You can buy additional boards I believe?

Anyways, I'm happy to see terrain in these starters. It's so important for the game, and far too many players neglect to invest in buildings or ruins because it isn't a direct part of their army collection. Good call.

Edited by Ishagu, 28 July 2020 - 11:05 PM.

[Mandragola]

These do look decent. The only thing that's a slight shame for me is having the same exact models in the elite and commander versions. I think this could have been the chance to use the odd sprue from Indomitus, backed up by something like an intercessor squad and 10 warriors.

 

A good way to avoid loads of duplicates with ETB outriders might just be to do arm and head swaps. Swap some arms with the assault intercessors and things will probably feel a lot better.

[MegaVolt87]

You can buy additional boards I believe?

Anyways, I'm happy to see terrain in these starters. It's so important for the game, and far too many players neglect to invest in buildings or ruins because it isn't a direct part of their army collection. Good call.

 

I would argue its GW's fault by making terrain such a poor value purchase. Its also packaged + set out on sprues as quite large taking up A LOT of shelf space in store. Overpriced and lack of availability, its no wonder its such a low priority and why tables are often under populated with terrain. Then we get dumb balance corrections because of it. Those new boards could have come with that new terrain at most a very slight price bump if any. 

[Ishagu]

But you get some good bits in there, and this will probably be the cheapest way to get hold of them.

I agree the terrain has historically been expensive, but it's mandatory for the most enjoyable games. Too often it's ignored.

[01RTB01]

Seconded on the terrain. I regret not getting the zone mortalis terrain when they did the splash box

I will probably grab the 'largest' box purely for the terrain and crons. Price depending.

Wish they did a direct order only box for scenery that conveyed a decent discount. Unfortunately in the fight of models vs scenery, I'll pretty much always buy models. Way back they did manufactorum type boxes that were very sensibly priced. I ran a school club and with one bake sale raised enough for us to kit out a few tables. Alas, has changed

[MegaVolt87]

But you get some good bits in there, and this will probably be the cheapest way to get hold of them.

I agree the terrain has historically been expensive, but it's mandatory for the most enjoyable games. Too often it's ignored.

 

I like the terrain, but not enough for the extra models. I would have been happy to get the crappy cardboard boards if they had the terrain in them. Hopefully the kill team terrain boxes show up as starter battlefield boxes soon. Would be more palatable, terrain and a play area at a lower cost, GW makes money by volume sale instead of per unit.