Daemon Weapons without rerolls

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So what are people's thoughts on the daemon weapons now it isn't possible to use a command point reroll to try and avoid the ones?
I was quite excited for them before, but now I'm not entirely sure they are worth the cost of a relic slot and the risk

[Khornestar]

Yeah, pretty weak. It’s a cute idea, but I don’t think any of our weapons “deserve” to have these downsides built in. I’m not totally knowledgeable about other factions’ war gear but I don’t see this sort of thing with anything other than plasma.

 

I think it would be totally okay for CSM to have really great melee weaponry and not be punished for it. In terms of faction rules, there isn’t a whole lot there to make up for it either.

 

I’d rather go with something like Gorefather, which has a -1 to hit but is otherwise just a good weapon.

[Llagos_Tyrant]

I thought there were no rerolls allowed on Daemon Weapon rules, or have I just misunderstood how they've worked since release? I always load up my Chaos Lords with a ranged and melee weapon, so the idea of taking one and risking no melee attacks and suffering a mortal wound, and then getting hit by enemy melee attacks completely turned me off them and I've never considered them.

 

I kind of see Daemon Weapons as another example of Chaos Space Marines being poorly done by GW, and without going further down that route, definitely agree that the risk of not being able to attack and suffering a mortal wound does not feel thematic or fun. A different negative impact for rolling a 1 on the Daemon Weapon roll - maybe (1) attacking last and suffering a mortal wound, or (2) losing attacks, or (3) having to take a Ld test to be able to still attack but not getting the buffs from the DW (so treat the daemonic axe as just a Power Axe) would be more interesting and thematic.

 

I was also hoping for and disappointed to see they didn't bring back the Kai Gun as a ranged Daemonic Weapon. It's made me consider just running an Iron Warriors Chaos Lord or Warpsmith with Spitespitter as a Kai Gun.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Its the classic case of having more power but coming at a risk, but the extra power is barely above what everyone gets from their relics, so why take the risk? Now, if Daemon weapons didn't take a relic to use and were their own thing, then we'd be talking.

[Lucerne]

It's another compelling argument to play loyalist counts-as.

[Khornestar]

It's another compelling argument to play loyalist counts-as.

It’s funny, the mental aspects of it. I’m fine doing that with guard, but my World Eaters or Word Bearers? I’d sooner fall on my chainaxe!

[Lucerne]

 

It's another compelling argument to play loyalist counts-as.

It’s funny, the mental aspects of it. I’m fine doing that with guard, but my World Eaters or Word Bearers? I’d sooner fall on my chainaxe!

 

Let's be honest- Space Wolves are pretty much Khornates anyway. :p

 

Word Bearers, yeah, that's a different story for counts-as and is a bit much given how much they're keen on daemons.

[Doom Herald]

@ Llagos: In 8th, you could use a command re-roll to re-roll basicly anything that happened during the course of the game, including Daemon Weapon rules.

 

Personally, I really, REALLY, wanted daemon weapons to be good when they came back but, with two exceptions, they weren't even as good as some relics as far as I'm concerned. The Slaaneshi and Nurgle weapons were great on a Lord, but either not so great or not even available to a DP. D6 extra attacks and re-rolling all wounds might still be good on a Spite Lord, not so good on a DP since its D6 extra instead of constant 3. In any case but the Spite Lord, I wouldn't even consider it. The Nurgle Fist, atleast in Night Lords, could get up to a +2 to hit between the NL strats and prescience (4+ DttFE) but now it can only go up to a +1 (5+ DttFE) which is a major cut. These things in mind combined with the inability to re-roll a 1 on Daemon Weapon just make them not seem worth it. I would maybe still TRY the Talons on a Jump Spite Lord in a Bile army where you might still get use out of swinging unarmed and recover wounds and maybe the Nurgle Fist in NL if I knew I was likely to be dealing with tanky Imperium models, but otherwise they aren't even on the table.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Debauchery101]

 

 

 

It's another compelling argument to play loyalist counts-as.

It’s funny, the mental aspects of it. I’m fine doing that with guard, but my World Eaters or Word Bearers? I’d sooner fall on my chainaxe!

Let's be honest- Space Wolves are pretty much Khornates anyway. :p

 

Word Bearers, yeah, that's a different story for counts-as and is a bit much given how much they're keen on daemons.

I see blood angels as more khornate..they have it in them naturally...they don't need some bootleg Chinese made 16bit microchip put in their head

[Debauchery101]

all in all the rerolls...after coming back almost a year ago with just a little bit of 7th play seeing all this CP and rerolls just seemed ridiculous.

 

I like it toned down. Hopefully we'll go more to generic stratagem theme as well. Make them mostly pre game use and mission/board themed with maybe a few tailored to factions depending on the game type.

 

Although I wish theyd do daemon weapons a bit more themed. Like say..every round you don't kill with a khorne weapon you have to hack a few friendlies or cut your wrist. If you don't smite some stuff or mutate some enemies..oops a friendly just turned into a spawn that attacks everyone. Or even something cooler. Your character if killed by a demon weapon...that daemon is freed and now he's a BAMF Npc that is on one EVERBODY KILLA! type energy

 

I'd even be cool with paying CP just to straight ignore any ill effects from bad rolls

Edited July 28, 2020 by Debauchery101

[Cheex]

Honestly, as underwhelming as they are, I'm still planning on using Za'al in my Crusade list. I even plan on saying "anything but a one" every time I roll for it, because I like to live dangerously.

 

But that's also because I like the idea of levelling up a character enough that he can take a Void Generator Crusade relic. AP-5 with no invulnerable saves allowed...it'll be worth all the 1s along the way.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Cheex

[nanosquid]

They'd be auto-takes if they just gave you the wound but still let you use them. THAT'S risk-reward that's proportional. Fingers crossed that F&F was a beta test for the 9e codex and we see the KAI GUN AGAIN GW WHY DIDN'T YOU DO THE KAI GUN AGAIN

[Panzer]

I mean most of them weren't particularly strong to begin with imo...

[Relic]

The lightning claws one on a jump pack Lord with flames of spite + veterans of the long war and either prescience vs imperials or diabolic strength is a blender able to tear up most things for significantly less then a D.Prince.

 

I had not noticed the change on the re-roll for the weapon though. Good catch. I get it from GW, less re-rolls is good for the game and you get these cool narrative moments more often like a daemon weapon turning on its master at that critical point leading to their demise. Before you would just CP re-roll out of that.

 

The nab is though - most players will judge the risk and forgo the D.weapon in favour of a relic weapon which are often just as good.For example playing iron warriors they have a nifty relic axe that could make a jump pack Lord a cheap smash captain and it won't fail 1/6 times.

[Xenith]

Thoughts on a bound/unleashed daemon weapon style where you choose how you wield it each turn, bound is a normal power weapon of the type, unleashed gives +1S, +1D, -1AP, but a roll of 1 to hit causes a mortal. 

 

Basically plasma gun rules but on daemon weapons? 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

So with now all firstborn becoming two wounds, I am suddenly thinking some of the multi damage daemon weapons may be worth it again, thoughts?

[Snazzy]

So with now all firstborn becoming two wounds, I am suddenly thinking some of the multi damage daemon weapons may be worth it again, thoughts?

 

They were always good.  Marines moving up to 2W is not a reason to take them, however.  Most Legions have Relic weapons that can do that job safer, and sometimes better.  You take a Daemon Weapon because you need it to do something outside the box, like hurting vehicles or killing characters.

[Doom Herald]

I do wonder if the Nurgle Powerfist will go up in damage to keep up with Thunderhammers. It and the Slaanesh Lightning Claws are still the only two I think I'd consider. The problem with Daemon Weapons is three-fold. They can damage you. If they damage you they are unusable that turn likely leaving you unarmed. Third, they largely just aren't that good.

 

A flat D2 is usually accepted as better than 1d3 but just in the codex, for all <LEGION>s, we have the following D2/1d3 relics:

 

>Puscleaver (also wounds on 2s, except vehicles)

>Axe of Blind Fury (also +3S, -3AP)

>The Black Mace (also +3S and can add mortal wounds)

 

This is also not counting Legion exclusives.

 

The Daemon Weapons are cool, but most of them don't really have a practical place that warrants even the chance of being disarmed. If that rule was gone, or if they didn't cost a relic, I think the situation would change. I don't think a 2 wound Marine meta is enough to change things. Making Choas risky is nice in theory, but the net power gain for the risk needs to be astonishing to be worthwhile in a game where streamlining and buffing something constant like bolter shots makes for one of the best armies. Also, these weapons are on par with Daemon Relics, which you can access with a second detachment and strat if you really wanted. It's not as easy to do in 9th as 8th, but honestly it might be worth not worrying about the Daemon Weapon roll, which now can't be re-rolled. Maybe a strat in the new Codex to re-roll it or roll 2 and take the best might make that feel less problematic.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Doom Herald

[Iron Father Ferrum]

The only way I'd ever take one is on a model with two close combat weapons so I can still attack with something reasonable should the daemon weapon bit the hand that feeds it.

 

Like a Khorne Prince with sword and talon (ie, the Diaz model)? I'd take Zaal on that guy for sure. The talons are a decent enough backup just in case.

[Brom MKIV]

I lost my rapa talons lord more than once to the daemon rule even with cmd reroll. 

I like the idea of on a roll of 1 ignore the daemon weapon rules and the weapon acts as a normal weapon of its type. That is still punishing but not suicide pillow fighter status.

[Cheex]

So, I finally got to upgrade my Lord's sword to Zaall and, as promised, I've been proudly tempting fate by declaring "anything but a 1"...

 

Yeah, fate lacks a sense of humour, it seems. Out of three attempts, he has failed the test twice.

[Doom Herald]

So, I finally got to upgrade my Lord's sword to Zaall and, as promised, I've been proudly tempting fate by declaring "anything but a 1"...

 

Yeah, fate lacks a sense of humour, it seems. Out of three attempts, he has failed the test twice.

We do not serve merciful gods, brother.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

I've never bothered using the Daemon Weapons. The one that ignored invulns looked fun, but I play Khorne exclusively, and his daemon weapon was absolutely not worth it. It really underlined the problem Khorne units have had in 9th (Berserkers aside), too much str and AP, not enough attacks or other tools to make it work. If it increased the str AND set the damage based on the d6 roll, it'd be worth trying. Roll a 6 and you now have an STR +6 damage 6 weapon, for example.

[Cheex]

 

So, I finally got to upgrade my Lord's sword to Zaall and, as promised, I've been proudly tempting fate by declaring "anything but a 1"...

 

Yeah, fate lacks a sense of humour, it seems. Out of three attempts, he has failed the test twice.

We do not serve merciful gods, brother.

 

 

It actually worked really well for the character's narrative, since it's for Crusade. In his narrative, he was gifted the sword when he joined my warband, but the sword refused to serve him so he was just stuck with a plain power sword for six games until he levelled up. On his sixth game, he was killed and suffered a chest wound, which I justified narratively by saying he got fed up with the sword and literally stabbed it into his primary heart.

 

This finally "activated" the sword (by spending a Requisition point when he levelled up), and the first time he used it he blended through an Intercessor squad without breaking a sweat. But now the sword is testing him again...

 

I'm just glad I'm only using this sword in Narrative games. It's hilarious fun when the only thing at stake is the story.

[Snazzy]

I've never bothered using the Daemon Weapons. The one that ignored invulns looked fun, but I play Khorne exclusively, and his daemon weapon was absolutely not worth it. It really underlined the problem Khorne units have had in 9th (Berserkers aside), too much str and AP, not enough attacks or other tools to make it work. If it increased the str AND set the damage based on the d6 roll, it'd be worth trying. Roll a 6 and you now have an STR +6 damage 6 weapon, for example.

 

The Boundless will take a big hit when auras no longer apply to characters, because it was always best on an Exalted Champ.  The change in Storm Shields also, ironically, hurt The Boundless by giving Terminators a 4+ armor save.  Still, safer than risking Death Hex.