AdMech: PA Units in 9th Edition

[Prot]

So I'm restarting this thread because, yes.... believe it or not I still have not glued my plastic doggies together (Raiders/Sulphur Hounds). And my beloved Archeopters are now sitting at 130 and 170 points respectively (as per Battlescribe).

 

As I write this, 3 x Serberys Raiders and 3 x Serberys Sulphurhounds are within 5 points of each other! 

 

I have heard through the grapevine one other caveat that may or may not affect these units: the way some weapons are listed in the codex will be changing in the coming months as codexes are rewritten. I doubt this will happen to these new units, but you never know.

 

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

So some time has passed. and I am unfortunately not seeing a lot of the newer Psychic Awakening units in many lists. It seems since the points have increased, many have been forced to take out experimental units in favour of old stand bys. 

 

We now know the rule of firing pistols, OR other weapons is still a rule. And since infantry still fire only pistols in CC, this makes Sulphur Hounds a real option again. My problem with them is they do something a lot of Admech lists already do well, which is rake chaff with low end weaponry.

 

At this point I'd like to know if anyone is using Raiders, and if so are they simply being used to dodge in and out of holding objectives? Or are you actually threatening Character models with them? Let's be honest 3 CC attacks at Strength 4,(only one of which has AP -1) is really not a threat and these guys are only T3. 

 

I think the Raiders have a rule of cool thing going for them, but shooting is rather lethargic for threatening most characters. One thing I have found in 9th is singling out characters is easier than ever. Most games by turn 3 it is very hard to protect characters from serious threats.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

[Black Knight]

Right now I would love to try to build a lovely Meta List with all our new units, but 9th has tossed the points in a dumpster fire and everything is out of whack. With the first codex only coming in October I have no idea what they were thinking, it is going to be awful for the first few months of this edition. The best you can do is make an army that you as a player are comfortable using because you ARE going to get roflstomped by certain armies and there is nothing we can do about it. It is not even close to balanced.

 

At the end of 8th the points were far from perfect but at least you had a chance. There are going to be stupidly broken combinations show up, at least tournaments are kinda still in lockdown for now.

 

For us I have seen a set of four bots single handily win multiple batreps now. That and a bomber for the aura suppression so that you can pretty much neuter CC armies charging, especially potent against DeathwatchDeathguard Terminators. Those and some boombox chickens with your flavour of HQ and you have a pretty good basis.

 

Mmmmm 6 Bots, 9 Chickens, 2 bombers and some HQ and troops, ooooh I like it. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Black_Knight

[Prot]

Well I don't have my info with me, so take this with a grain of salt because it's from Battle Scribe.

 

Raiders = 48 Pts 

Sulphur Hounds = 68 Pts.

 

That's a min squad.

 

So I made a list that is based around 3 Skorpius because I don't want to take Kastelans right now. (Plus we play with dense terrain more than ever to keep things legit).

 

(I went to look points up in my newly subscribed to WH40K App and it doesn't work. lol)

 

Well let's make a scorecard:

 

Raiders (Base config):

+ 20 Pts Cheaper!

+ Pre Game Move (12")

+ Shoot Characters (Albeit with pea shooters)

+ Attacks: 3 (1 of them with a saber for AP-1)

+ Strat: Retreat 12" effectively denying assault?

 

Sulphurhounds (Base config):

+ D6 + 2 Pistol attacks at -1 AP: Denies Cover

+ The above works in close combat (If by miracle they survive)

+ Alpha comes with Power Maul +2 St (But I believe he only gets 2 attacks with it)

+ Strat: 6" advance, can still shoot normal

 

The two units are pretty different, but there is one other outside factor here.... they compete in the Fast slot against Sterylizors. While more expensive, and 1 less wound, the Sterilyzors are making a bigger impact while in CC on the charge, and have the potential to 'trap' something into CC. 

 

 

Next game I have 5 Raiders in the list. I put 4 together already, and I have to say they are extremely fiddly and while they look nice, they are really easy to mess up. Mould lines on the cabling is extremely frustrating to remove, even with the right tools. 

[Black Knight]

They are two completely different rolls, do you need someone to circle the wagons while taking out any heros that accompany the opponents CC units, blunting the attack? Or do you need something you are going to wedge into the castle clearing chaff(Pretty much die straight after)?

 

I am probably going to replace my Dragoons with rangers but to me I find Sterylizors are better at attacking the castle, you'll be able to place them more accurately when they drop, albeit a turn later.

[Gaz1858]

Well I don't have my info with me, so take this with a grain of salt because it's from Battle Scribe.

 

Raiders = 48 Pts

Sulphur Hounds = 68 Pts.

 

That's a min squad.

 

So I made a list that is based around 3 Skorpius because I don't want to take Kastelans right now. (Plus we play with dense terrain more than ever to keep things legit).

 

(I went to look points up in my newly subscribed to WH40K App and it doesn't work. lol)

 

Well let's make a scorecard:

 

Raiders (Base config):

+ 20 Pts Cheaper!

+ Pre Game Move (12")

+ Shoot Characters (Albeit with pea shooters)

+ Attacks: 3 (1 of them with a saber for AP-1)

+ Strat: Retreat 12" effectively denying assault?

 

Sulphurhounds (Base config):

+ D6 + 2 Pistol attacks at -1 AP: Denies Cover

+ The above works in close combat (If by miracle they survive)

+ Alpha comes with Power Maul +2 St (But I believe he only gets 2 attacks with it)

+ Strat: 6" advance, can still shoot normal

 

The two units are pretty different, but there is one other outside factor here.... they compete in the Fast slot against Sterylizors. While more expensive, and 1 less wound, the Sterilyzors are making a bigger impact while in CC on the charge, and have the potential to 'trap' something into CC.

 

 

Next game I have 5 Raiders in the list. I put 4 together already, and I have to say they are extremely fiddly and while they look nice, they are really easy to mess up. Mould lines on the cabling is extremely frustrating to remove, even with the right tools.

Im putting a box together now and ive actually found them really easy with little mould lines. Ive also managed to magnetise them so they can have their weapons swapped out between Raiders, Sulphurhounds and any upgrades

[Magos Takatus]

I've also had issues with my Raiders, I have to leave at least one leg off the mount otherwise I simply can't get a brush in to paint the underside. It's been slow going with the amount of sub-assemblies I've got it split into.

[Prot]

Yea I'm not looking forward to painting the undercarriages.... the mould lines I found are often on both sides of the miniscule tubes that connect from the head to the throat, and face. 

 

I foresee an issue with those antennae on the riders backpacks. 

[Black Knight]

"I foresee an issue with those antennae..."

 

Said by every Admech Player ever!

Edited July 31, 2020 by Black_Knight

[Subtle Discord]

With a #4 Half Round jeweler file from a maker like Grobet you can clean up mould lines on corrugated hoses very easily. It's still tediously mind numbing (I have literally fallen asleep on a few occasions cleaning hoses it's so trance inducing) and I wouldn't dare say it makes the process enjoyable but it does make it tolerable because you can get very clean results consistently.

[Clingy]

Whoa, just googled that. Not a cheap tool

 

Where do you even buy such a thing that delivers outside of the states without a big import fee

[Subtle Discord]

Grobet are Swiss made, so they've got to be in Europe somewhere, but they're not the only good brand; just look for something not made in China or some other part of the world where quality control will be less than ideal. Do a search for a semi-local Jewelry Supply Store and there should be one that stocks them.

 

I get my files from Contenti in the US and a 5.5" #4 Half Round is $8.20 USD which is maybe a few bucks more than files of much lesser quality than you'd find at a local Hobby Shop. Yeah, import duties suck; it's not the tax, that I accept, it's the slimy 'handling fee' that's 3x the tax that's complete garbage. However, even if you do need to take a hit on the tax/fees it's a tool that will literally last for decades or even a lifetime if it's use only on plastic; my favorite #4 Half Round is roughly 20 years old and it's still my go-to file for dealing with 95% of my mould line removal. Hard to knock that kind of investment.

[Clingy]

I’ll keep looking they were £40+ when I tried

[Gaz1858]

Has anyone found the Raider riders dont go on the mounts easily?

[Magos Takatus]

Yeah, I've found them a touch fiddly but they generally sat in place after I've wiggled them a bit. I had more trouble with the huge holsters with the tiny connection point.

[Clingy]

the holsters I can’t figure out lol

 

I’ve left them off in a temper

[Gaz1858]

Yeh i have put nothing on the horses yet but the riders just dont fit on. It looks like unless i put pressure on them when I glue them down theres still gonna be a fair gap between the horse and the rider

[Prot]

Yea the riders are very... wobbly on their mounts. 
 

I had my game against Orks. I swear I was going to lose this game. And the Raiders were so terrible, I won’t be using the models until the codex comes out. Running from CC and then going after infantry or characters with those guns is a joke. Plus even Orks with pistols can make short work of them... they really should have been T4. 
 

Again I thought the Orks had me, I even lost Cawl which was a first in a very long time... lost my Manipulus too. I didn’t want to use tons of Dakka bots, I only used three but they were good. I lost one but the other 2 just shredded mega Nobz shooting them in CC with the Daedelosus pointing them out for the Kastelans. 
 

the thing I don’t like about Admech right now is even though I won, I felt boxed in the entire game. Aggressive players and a fair amount of terrain will do this Admech every game. It’s really annoying to me. I think I could have easily lost this game but I think both me and my opponent underestimated the Kastelan shooting in CC. 
 

for future games I. Definitely ditching all the new units except the bomber. I don’t like how any of them are working personally. 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Prot

[brother_b]

That's a dismaying take on things.

 

Are you boxed in because you play Mars? Would pre game moves a la Stygies help out? Have you tried the sulphurhounds? I don't see them ever changing the toughness. It's very odd they're only T3, I guess I assumed they were T4 ... maybe not.

 

No sterilyzors? It seems they'd be able to get into position pretty well on turns 2-3. Or do they just melt also?

 

I sure hope the great Admech build of 9th isn't Cawl and Daedelosus pointing out targets to shred with robots and the occasional flyer.

[Subtle Discord]

Well then, I guess I'm happy with my next expansion for my AdMech. I was looking at the new units and both the Serberys and Pteraxii seemed a bit underwhelming on paper (yeah, T3 on a mounted Skitarii seems... odd) but I don't have any real experience to know if my instinct was correct. I settled on two Scorpius and a Bomber, plus some other things for some bashing ideas, and held off on the Hounds and Bat Boys for now to see how they perform on other tables. The Scorpius chassis is now an obvious workhorse and the Bomber simply seems to be a useful standout for the flyer configurations so I'm glad I got those first held off on the other new units. From a looks perspective I want some of both but I'm going to get the backbone of the collection done first, then look at the new units again. Hopefully by then the new Skitarii something they've teased will be out, the Manipulus will be back in stock, and the community will have more of an idea how the new units synergize with the faction. And, don't rule out GW tweaking the stats on the units, especially in the new codex; GW seems more willing to make tangible adjustments to new units for a while after release but then they tend to settle into their final form unless they shakes things up. In general though, GW has been actually adjusting profiles much more often lately than they have in the past (true, not always for the best) so who knows.

[DanPesci]

That's a dismaying take on things.

 

Are you boxed in because you play Mars? Would pre game moves a la Stygies help out? Have you tried the sulphurhounds? I don't see them ever changing the toughness. It's very odd they're only T3, I guess I assumed they were T4 ... maybe not.

 

No sterilyzors? It seems they'd be able to get into position pretty well on turns 2-3. Or do they just melt also?

 

I sure hope the great Admech build of 9th isn't Cawl and Daedelosus pointing out targets to shred with robots and the occasional flyer.

 

 

Not played a game of 9th yet, but as a stygies setup I think im swinging more back towards sulphurhounds than raiders (when i eventually get round to picking up something new!)

 

The stygies pregame move strat means they're going 9 + 12 + d6" on the first turn (so on average a 28" threat range with their flamers) - and means you can redeploy if going 2nd (I think..not 100% where the pregame moves fall in 9th?)

 

But yeah the T3 is an issue, i used to run 3x5 infiltrator squads and although they nearly always scored a point or two and made their points back, they also fall over to a strong breeze. So even with 1st turn, I doubt the sulphurhounds will see turn 2, unless you are really going in and running multiple large units of them.

 

Sterlyzors give you flexibility of a T2/3 arrival rather than the alpha striking hounds, but will still die easily unless they make their charge and trap the unit. Again I think you need to run multiple units of them for good effectiveness.

 

The problem for me is that with a lot of the new units (bar the bomber), I simply don't have the cash atm to invest into worthwhile numbers of them -  especially when Im already having to make choices on what i need to cut from my current 8th lists.

[Prot]

That's a dismaying take on things.

 

Are you boxed in because you play Mars? Would pre game moves a la Stygies help out? Have you tried the sulphurhounds? I don't see them ever changing the toughness. It's very odd they're only T3, I guess I assumed they were T4 ... maybe not.

 

No sterilyzors? It seems they'd be able to get into position pretty well on turns 2-3. Or do they just melt also?

 

I sure hope the great Admech build of 9th isn't Cawl and Daedelosus pointing out targets to shred with robots and the occasional flyer.

 

 

- Sorry I didn't mean that to come out so negative. I am just not entirely convinced of using the new units. The T3 is extremely disappointing, and in this game I played against a very, very aggressive Ork list. Which I think to be honest is going to be necessary for Orks to be successful in 9th ed. 

 

As a result, the AdMech was 'bullied' into a corner. I did  what I could to block him out using the transports which were eaten up fairly quickly.

 

I believe I won at the end only because he kind of went too aggressive (IMO) with the Mega Armoured Nobs and we both underestimated shooty Dakka Kastellans in close combat. As a result he didn't have the follow through to support arguably his most potent infantry. The thing is he 'Da Jumped' them too early.

 

When he did follow up with two Battlewagons, it was all I could handle to stay out of CC. All together what this means is if he would have waited one turn with his Mega Nobs, then had a combined strike into my quarter, I believe I would have been buried in bodies for most of the game.

 

A lot of the time this isn't an issue, but I do have a very aggressive meta here. Blood Angels, Orks, Nids/GSC, etc. So this is not uncommon for me to see in games. 

 

So the end result is the new stuff, at T3 really didn't have a role. The idea of retreating the Raiders was only useful once, and in the mean time they did so little damage, and had so little ability to 'take and hold' that they kind of acted like 'angry flies' just buzzing around until I was forced to commit them near end game. Again, even pistols make short work of them.

 

My troops were of similar use, but they do hit harder with the Aquebus, and Vanguard with Cavaliers have potential, but even though this is all T3, at least the troops are Obsec, and I have zero expectation from them.

 

Raiders will have use in games with far less aggressive opponents, however the stars of this game were:- the three Kastallans, and my Fulgurite Priests. (followed closely by the expensive, but vital indirect of the Belarose Skorpius').

Edited August 4, 2020 by Prot

[brother_b]

No knock on your assessments Prot, I value them. It's just dismaying because you've got them on the table and they aren't performing up to expectations. We have horde killing in droves, really. If the raiders were armed with a more potent rifle, say a S 5 that would be great. Then again, maybe that would have made them too good for the sniping aspect.

 

I believe the Raider ability would have been much better with a larger table, but it seems that everybody is adopting the minimum table size. I have a feeling we need to go big, meaning multiple MSU units of raiders (so as to avoid blast weapons), or multiple units of 5. Spread out and moving forward pre game may have some worth, even though they'll probably die.

 

The sulfurhounds are looking more and more interesting to me as well, though I have my eyes set on Sterilyzors for flame weapon squads.

 

I dunno, I'll probably try and make two 5 man (dog, horse thingy) of raiders and push them forwards with a transport full of stick priests using Stygies.

 

All of this is just wish planning I've got no games set up for the immediate future.

[Prot]

So let me be honest about this... I told my opponent exactly what the unit is capable of because I hate ‘gotcha’ 40K. 
 

A smart opponent is never going to charge them until he’s just wanting to waste CP. 

 

sure I’ve seen the raiders work but it’s usually because if some really poor, inexperienced decision making on the opponent’s behalf. Otherwise this is pretty much a fistful of speedy Vanguard running around. 
 

I will try them again. Maybe it’s the match ups I’ve been getting. 

[BolterZorro]

I have most of former admech units (except corpuscarii) in enough numbers. Missing the balistarii and kataphrons which are in the upcoming order (3 ironstriders+ 2 boxes of breachers).

 

But I have ZERO new units. I'll pass (for now) for the tank/transport. But I'd like to get some new units, I don't really know what are the most versatile in the list: archeocopters (1), serberys(2) or pteraxii(1or2)... (number being the number of boxes I intend to buy).

They all have in comon a nice mobility. But I don't know... Please help me choose as I like the miniatures. 

[MajorNese]

I have most of former admech units (except corpuscarii) in enough numbers. Missing the balistarii and kataphrons which are in the upcoming order (3 ironstriders+ 2 boxes of breachers).

 

But I have ZERO new units. I'll pass (for now) for the tank/transport. But I'd like to get some new units, I don't really know what are the most versatile in the list: archeocopters (1), serberys(2) or pteraxii(1or2)... (number being the number of boxes I intend to buy).

They all have in comon a nice mobility. But I don't know... Please help me choose as I like the miniatures. 

I'm in the same spot, except that I have to decimate my pile of shame first.

 

Transport seems much worse now than the Termite, due to the steep points hike.

Tank seems too expensive too, only the Belleros might be useful since it's the one thing we have to ignore LoS.

Archaeopter seems versatile, magnetized it's 3 different units, and you don't need to spam them like serberys.

Serberys don't bring anything except mobility, and are too fragile that 2 boxes do much on the table.

Pteraxii flamers sound interesting. Flechette guys seem like Infiltrators with wings, so if you have Infils it doesn't make much sense.

 

Since I've still got a tank kit around, I will go for the Archaeopter first. That's the one kit that will bring a really new element to my lists, instead of something we already have in a similar unit.