AdMech: PA Units in 9th Edition

[BolterZorro]

With 6 robots, 6 kataphrons, 3 duneriders and 3 (upcoming) balistarii (or dragons), do I need a tank(scorpion) for AT?

(for now, I'll go the archeopter route according to your advice)

[MajorNese]

Robots are hardly AT, duneriders are chaff fire, so you got 6 kataphron for AT. Those will kill a vehicle or two, if they're plasma destroyers, but are still rather easy to remove.

No onagers? Those would be the direct contestant for AT, and before the skorpius released, our go-to solution.

Balistarii seem perfect for 9th, as they can now move and fire without penalty, while Dragoons became worse in the recent FAQ.

[BolterZorro]

Robots are hardly AT, duneriders are chaff fire, so you got 6 kataphron for AT. Those will kill a vehicle or two, if they're plasma destroyers, but are still rather easy to remove.

No onagers? Those would be the direct contestant for AT, and before the skorpius released, our go-to solution.

Balistarii seem perfect for 9th, as they can now move and fire without penalty, while Dragoons became worse in the recent FAQ.

Oops! my bad : I have no duneriders but 3 onagers.  So, no need for the AT skorpion?

And with all those former units, I feel that my army probably needs some faster units (like serberys or pteraxii),  doesn't it? (already have 10 unassembled sicarians).

[DeStinyFiSh]

With Mars Canticle Robots become S7 AP-2 and can dish out mortals with Wraith of Mars. I think in that specific Forgeworld they are pretty competent in removing tanks.

Ironstriders work good against Tanks as well. S7 base wounds most vehicles on 4+. With the new Stratagem you can improve it to 3+. With Mars Canticle it will even be S8 wounding on 2s.

Edited August 5, 2020 by DeStinyFiSh

[MajorNese]

 

Robots are hardly AT, duneriders are chaff fire, so you got 6 kataphron for AT. Those will kill a vehicle or two, if they're plasma destroyers, but are still rather easy to remove.

No onagers? Those would be the direct contestant for AT, and before the skorpius released, our go-to solution.

Balistarii seem perfect for 9th, as they can now move and fire without penalty, while Dragoons became worse in the recent FAQ.

Oops! my bad : I have no duneriders but 3 onagers.  So, no need for the AT skorpion?

And with all those former units, I feel that my army probably needs some faster units (like serberys or pteraxii),  doesn't it? (already have 10 unassembled sicarians).

In that case, 3 onagers and 3 balistarii should be enough anti tank. 2x5 (or with Mars, 1x10) Infiltrators should be useful, also since they can deep strike without requiring CP. Pteraxii do pretty much the same (but with wings), so the flyer should bring the most versatility out of the mentioned options.

 

And yes, Mars canticle is bonkers. S5 stubbers, S7 heavy prosphor, S8-9 plasma, S7-8 Icarus array, S8 autocannons...that's easily the single best upgrade from Engine War.

[Prot]

 

Robots are hardly AT, duneriders are chaff fire, so you got 6 kataphron for AT. Those will kill a vehicle or two, if they're plasma destroyers, but are still rather easy to remove.

No onagers? Those would be the direct contestant for AT, and before the skorpius released, our go-to solution.

Balistarii seem perfect for 9th, as they can now move and fire without penalty, while Dragoons became worse in the recent FAQ.

Oops! my bad : I have no duneriders but 3 onagers.  So, no need for the AT skorpion?

And with all those former units, I feel that my army probably needs some faster units (like serberys or pteraxii),  doesn't it? (already have 10 unassembled sicarians).

 

 

My first question would be: Are you playing Mars? Makes a big difference. I've always played Mars and in every edition I'd be a touch light on anti-tank and just lean hard on the Mars strat for extra mortal wounds when needed. It's a bit risky, but other Forgeworlds definitely do better with Plasma. So it depends what you play.

 

The only reason I have the Skorpion Disintegrator is the indirect. It's too expensive now, and it's a real mixed bag of weaponry. In the last 15-20 games I've played, without at least one tank for indirect, I would be in trouble. I believe you can get around this, but new Obscurring terrain rules give your assaulty opponents a lot more opportunity to hide, and then reach you in CC quickly.

 

But yes, I agree the Ballistarii are in a better place now.... a unit hardly ever touched in 8th has become 'solid' in 9th just simply due to the multiple core rules changes. 

 

Onagers are a sore spot with me. I think they should be ferocious little death boxes against hard targets, but they are still D3 and now Blast which is more of a detriment than a help now.  I know some people like them.... I relate them to the space marine "Landraider"; Iconic, fluffy, and very antiquated. 

 

With Mars Canticle Robots become S7 AP-2 and can dish out mortals with Wraith of Mars. I think in that specific Forgeworld they are pretty competent in removing tanks.

Ironstriders work good against Tanks as well. S7 base wounds most vehicles on 4+. With the new Stratagem you can improve it to 3+. With Mars Canticle it will even be S8 wounding on 2s.

 

- I have found this to be true as well. But again I've always played Mars. I have a friend who plays Ryza (or whatever it is) that makes his Plasma amazing. But as Mars, I have not really been big on Destroyers, and I will say the Kastelan dakka bots are actually not bad in CC during shooting phases.

 

In 8th edition I had an easy out: Knights. But they are really in an awkward spot and this is another bone of contention I have with GW... the Knights are in our codex, but still awkward as heck to fit into a list! 

 

In truth most of my opponents have noted that my lack of strong damage against very tough (T8) multiwound units is a problem I have. (Well that and big CC rushing armies). I just live with it, however I would add I've never owned the Forgeworld Drills and I have admech friends that do quite well with them.(Melta)

[BolterZorro]

 

 

And yes, Mars canticle is bonkers. S5 stubbers, S7 heavy prosphor, S8-9 plasma, S7-8 Icarus array, S8 autocannons...that's easily the single best upgrade from Engine War.

This is super scary for....admech players: such an obvious choice never last too long. 

I hope I can bet on mars then. I'll go for the copter then.

Since I'll order an minimum of 3 balistarii and 2 kataphrons boxes, how many are optimum?

- balistarii

- kataphrons? (will got 6 then, so I'll play 1 unit of 5? or is it interesting to get another box and play 5+4?)

[brother_b]

It is tough when one of the best or the best forgeworld continues to get the juiciest upgrades.

 

I bought three boxes, I’ve been looking at eBay for a single model buy. I’ll run five and five I’m just torn between going full Raiders to force my opponent to deal with that, or doing five of each.

[MajorNese]

It is tough when one of the best or the best forgeworld continues to get the juiciest upgrades.

I mean others (like Lucius) too have interesting upgrades, but a good canticle without Cawl's +-1 is effectively a one-time deal, suitable for specific lists, not a whole-game strategy like any other army.

 

But yeah, Mars is simply the best choice, except for rather specific lists.

[Black Knight]

No matter how much I love my little spider tanks, they do nothing most of the time. Even if you get three attacks they will fail to wound/hit an invul save. Volume of fire is key, especially with Wrath of Mars.

[Prot]

It is tough when one of the best or the best forgeworld continues to get the juiciest upgrades.

 

I bought three boxes, I’ve been looking at eBay for a single model buy. I’ll run five and five I’m just torn between going full Raiders to force my opponent to deal with that, or doing five of each.

 

Yea I was going to do this as well, but after 2 test games, I'm going to put the idea on hiatus.

 

I have this feeling we may see something else come out. I only say this because when someone cracked open the Warhammer App, they found references in the code to Dark Mechanicum. So I wonder how many of these new units are really just going to be ported over to a 'mirror' army, and that's why we are seeing a few squads come out which are  in a weird place.

 

So I am waiting now until the new codex comes out. For now I'll stick to the old stuff, and my Archeopters. 

[Magos Takatus]

There was a lot of comparisons between the Sulphurhounds and the Raiders when the units dropped but I'm more concerned about the comparison between the Sulphurhounds and the Sterylizors. Both have flamer weapons and similar movement/strength/toughness. The Pteraxii are paying for 3+ ballistic skill which they aren't using but the flyboys can relocate which could prove useful. The Pteraxii are 1 point more expensive from what I can tell. The Rad Saturation rule looks interesting but I don't know if that would come into play that regularly.

 

With very little in-game experience I don't know which would fare better. Would the ability to fire pistols into combat make the Sulphurhounds better or would the Steylizors be more useful with their stratagem to lock units into combat?

[BolterZorro]

I'm a bit lost also with the flyboys and the cavalry.

Also, I think that infiltrators/rustalkers need some adjusment. Their roles is redundant with the units above but what they do is worse than the new units for more points.

I have 10 rustalker/infiltr&ators, not assembled and I actually have ZERO idea what do do with them and which build to assemble. (Maybe the infiltrators for their ability  but dunno)

[MajorNese]

I'm a bit lost also with the flyboys and the cavalry.

Also, I think that infiltrators/rustalkers need some adjusment. Their roles is redundant with the units above but what they do is worse than the new units for more points.

I have 10 rustalker/infiltr&ators, not assembled and I actually have ZERO idea what do do with them and which build to assemble. (Maybe the infiltrators for their ability  but dunno)

Everyone has Infiltrators in spades - of course the new kit is better in every aspect.

Maybe they'll adjust this in the next codex, or the one after, when everyone has flyboys in spades.

[Ulfast]

So, now with another months has gone, do anyone have any new experinces with our new (and old) units?

[DanPesci]

Im going to throw in as a stygies player - (Mars id probably still say is most competitive as the strength upgrade does serious work on paper, but ive never played Mars so...)

 

I also own none of the new units, but have been theorising how they'd fit into my current stygies servitor maniple list. This is generally more a defensive list as opposed to a Mars list which has better attacking power.

 

 

- The -1 to hit outside 12inches is still great at reducing incoming damage turn 1 (especially as most of the new unit are still only T3, the less shots hitting them the better). However it doesn't work too great with things like sterilyzors, as generally you are within 12". It will hopefully protect your raiders/sulphurhounds better should you not get first turn.

 

- The pregame moves means that your sulphurhounds can be in range turn 1, albeit at the cost of CP, but I can see this working well with a big unit (and the -1 means that if you dont have first turn, they're a bit more survivable, or you can move them out of LOS with the strat)

 

- Stygies pregame moves also means you can get units onto midfield objectives turn 1, from what I've seen in various battle reports this can be key in 9th.

 

- I love my breachers and still prefer them over plasma destroyers, yes they're wounding on 5+ against most vehicles but doing d6 wounds means en-masse they can really lay in some unexpected hurt on vehicles - but you need to build the list around them: have large units of them, use them in the servitor maniple (for the +1 to hit strat), and combined with daedolosus means they can be hitting on 2s. The same thing can be done with plasma destroyers, but I really like having the 3+ save rather than 4+. I also use the 5++ FNP warlord trait in conjunction with a field commander doing the 'replace servitor' schtick to make them really durable.

 

- I find the 5++ inv save strat in the servitor maniple a bit of a trap - my breachers generally have a 2+ save the first 2 turns anyway and unless you are up against AP-4 or weapons ignoring cover, you get a 5+ save for them. This is probably more useful on destroyers though who only start with the 4+ (3+ with shroudsalm), and again could help you hold those objectives which seems important for 9th.

 

- For holding objectives, its a throwdown between breachers having the better save/actual CC attacks VS destroyers having flamers to deter charges, but you need CP to overwatch and I find I spend all my CP by turn 2 these days. Breachers also come in cheaper so its easier to have larger squads of them to sit on/screen out objectives.

 

- Im still using infiltrators (mainly as I have 15 built and painted), the flyboys arguably do a better job but are a tad more expensive. So i use infiltrators for cheaper objective grabbing.

 

- Out of the new flyers the bomber interests me the most still, im just not sure the other 2 arent already beaten by options we already have (dunerider for transport and skorpius/onagers/chickens for shooting)

 

- The stygies new FW dogma of fall back and shoot at -1 is very situational (and nowhere near as powerful as the mars one), but I could see it coming into play later in the game once you've used up the usual shroudspalm/reroll 1s in shooting dogmas.

[brother_b]

Hey Dan, I believe for “match” play or at least tournaments the Vigilus detachments are no longer allowed. I never had a chance to use the detachments so I feel I missed out. Oh well. I also usually play Stygies.

 

Would you still bring the Breachers without the maniple? I still love them and think they’re our best bet at holding objectives. I only have 6 though and dread purchasing and painting more. 

[Black Knight]

Yeah, they depreciated the special detachments in the Vigilus books shortly after 9th began.

[Prot]

Hey Dan, some really good points.

 

I will add my own two cogs:

 

- I honestly don't know if Mars is more powerful than Stygies. You're right that -1 to hit across the board is extremely potent I find (used against me) even with the modern restriction on modifiers.

 

- And yes the pregame move in a (historically) slower army, presents a very potent set up for strategy in a very objective-centric edition.

 

 

- I love my breachers and still prefer them over plasma destroyers, yes they're wounding on 5+ against most vehicles but doing d6 wounds means en-masse they can really lay in some unexpected hurt on vehicles - but you need to build the list around them: have large units of them, use them in the servitor maniple (for the +1 to hit strat), and combined with daedolosus means they can be hitting on 2s. The same thing can be done with plasma destroyers, but I really like having the 3+ save rather than 4+. I also use the 5++ FNP warlord trait in conjunction with a field commander doing the 'replace servitor' schtick to make them really durable.

 

 

- Im still using infiltrators (mainly as I have 15 built and painted), the flyboys arguably do a better job but are a tad more expensive. So i use infiltrators for cheaper objective grabbing.

 

- Out of the new flyers the bomber interests me the most still, im just not sure the other 2 arent already beaten by options we already have (dunerider for transport and skorpius/onagers/chickens for shooting)

 

- Breachers: I agree. Of course I'm not using the Vigilus stuff, but still this edition is far better suited to aggressive play (aggressive doesn't necessarily mean assault). I've played a ton of 9th ed games and wish I had Breachers for those aggressive match ups. I own zero, and continually would love to have the ObSec alone. 

 

- Infiltrators: I have many as well. I can't really find a use for them. Essentially I've used flyers to replace their field presence, even though I can't hold an objective, it helps for any of the secondaries that involve holding quarters, etc.

 

- Flyers: The new flyers are decent. But yea the bomber is probably my fave. The bombing rules of it are better than most bombing mechanisms in 40K. They don't last long though. The shooty variant is actually interesting. I have used it to snipe characters and it's really good at disabling small units hiding behind obscurring terrain. The truth is I think we should all be using a LOT of obscurring terrain, and the flyers certainly help counter a table full of obscurement. 

 

 

 

Mars is good, but 9th certainly turned down the Canticle a notch. Otherwise I would say that Mars sits on a VERY precarious perch. When you think about it, the big Mars advantage is based on 1 Strat (mortal wounds) and the reroll bubble of Cawl. Those are two major things that are quite questionable going into the 9th ed codex. Consider that the "core" rules are hitting marines, and it's very possible this hits AdMech aura's as well. 

 

Personally Cawl is my favorite model in the AdMech lineup. He took me forever to paint. so I just stick with it, through thick and thin. :)

[MajorNese]

Mars is good, but 9th certainly turned down the Canticle a notch. Otherwise I would say that Mars sits on a VERY precarious perch. When you think about it, the big Mars advantage is based on 1 Strat (mortal wounds) and the reroll bubble of Cawl. Those are two major things that are quite questionable going into the 9th ed codex. Consider that the "core" rules are hitting marines, and it's very possible this hits AdMech aura's as well.

 

By the canticle, do you mean the Mars specific one?

It wasn't really turned down a notch - the no-penalty-for-moving part was almost entirely irrelevant in 8th already, but S+1 on all heavy weapons is bonkers, pushing a lot of our weapons into the sweet spot against their designated targets. Coupled with the fact that you can replace an irrelevant canticle with this one, and Cawl can +-1 the canticle roll, and you get two dice - you always have either Shroudpsalm, or the specific one, or frequently both. And both are worth it.

 

The whole thing puts Mars into the unique position where Canticles aren't a one-off and otherwise extremely unreliable mechanic. If others could get at least halfway close, it would be a more even setup.

[Prot]

 

Mars is good, but 9th certainly turned down the Canticle a notch. Otherwise I would say that Mars sits on a VERY precarious perch. When you think about it, the big Mars advantage is based on 1 Strat (mortal wounds) and the reroll bubble of Cawl. Those are two major things that are quite questionable going into the 9th ed codex. Consider that the "core" rules are hitting marines, and it's very possible this hits AdMech aura's as well.

 

By the canticle, do you mean the Mars specific one?

It wasn't really turned down a notch - the no-penalty-for-moving part was almost entirely irrelevant in 8th already, but S+1 on all heavy weapons is bonkers, pushing a lot of our weapons into the sweet spot against their designated targets. Coupled with the fact that you can replace an irrelevant canticle with this one, and Cawl can +-1 the canticle roll, and you get two dice - you always have either Shroudpsalm, or the specific one, or frequently both. And both are worth it.

 

The whole thing puts Mars into the unique position where Canticles aren't a one-off and otherwise extremely unreliable mechanic. If others could get at least halfway close, it would be a more even setup.

 

 

Well this conversation (IE: thread) isn't supposed to be about Mars. I was simply stating the obvious; things change. For a while all we saw at tournaments was Stygies. GW is famous (infamous?) for making something look really good at the end of an edition, and then hacking it at the knees. I'm not saying that's the case here, but we are (supposedly) talking about what Psychic Awakening brings to the table.

 

Overall this is a supplement towards the end of an edition. I would argue that a lot of armies got miscellaneous stuff that is incredibly potent that may or may not make it into 9th edition codexes. 

 

Bottom line: I personally would not make long term goals based on anything in Psychic Awakening as it pertains to 9th edition. But that's just me.

[DanPesci]

Hey Dan, I believe for “match” play or at least tournaments the Vigilus detachments are no longer allowed. I never had a chance to use the detachments so I feel I missed out. Oh well. I also usually play Stygies.

 

Would you still bring the Breachers without the maniple? I still love them and think they’re our best bet at holding objectives. I only have 6 though and dread purchasing and painting more. 

 

Awwww WHAT! I totally missed this (but also as I said, ive yet to play 9th - an upcoming tournament im playing at were still using 8th as noone in it has the time/resource to upgrade to the new edition yet).

 

Ill still use my breachers as i have 12 built and painted, and at this point cant imagine my list without them, but ill revise some points 

 

- The loss of the vigilus +1 to hit strat and being able to revive them is definately a blow though (as well as making servitors useless again, bar being a backfield DS denial). I never once used the inv save strat so thats by-the-by

 

- However, the 5++ FNP you can get from the new warlord traits id say will still be great on them, T5/3 wounds/3+(2+ with Shroudpsalm)/5+ FNP, obsec theyre still going to be good objective holders. 

- Having a second character with prime hermeticon near them gives them serious combat punch too if, hitting on 5s with the hydraulic claws becomes WAY more dangerous when they can reroll that (3x S10 d3 dmg attacks each)

- You can still get them hitting on 3s with daedolosus

 

Plus side - im now saving CP due to not running servitor maniple/paying for field commander etc

 

I really hope they roll the servitor maniple options in some form into our new codex though - if only to give my 8 converted servitors something to actually do.

 

 

 

 

 

Personally Cawl is my favorite model in the AdMech lineup. He took me forever to paint. so I just stick with it, through thick and thin. 

 

This is how i feel with my breachers, omnissiah be damned... 12 of them took FOREVER to paint.

[Prot]

I respect the Breacher decision. Although not a pure Psychic Awakening unit, I think the benefit a bit, and I believe it might turn full circle on those guys in this edition!

[Black Knight]

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of it is rolled into our codex.

[Charlo]

W....Why is Vigilus now banned?

 

AFAIK it's 100% valid bar a few marine things that were replaced/ updated in the codexes?