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DA in 40k, past, present and future (indomitus) + supplement


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#51
solarisqc

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My vision of the DA Legion organisation.

 

The Rock is the home of the DA, it's the amiral ship of Azreal, but no compagny are base on it, they are just visitor. It's the home of the inner circle, reclusiam, archive, forge, etc the head structure of the chapter is on the rock.

 

Other chapter have a battlebarge or fortress monastery similar to a Ramilies starfort as a main base of operation that act like the rock.

 

Each Company have a strike cruiser assign to it. On each strike cruiser you have everything a company need , and each have a squad of Deathwing and a squad of Ravenwing attach to them.

 

On normal operation, a Master have acces to his company and as need, the Deathwing and Ravenwing squad attach to his compagny. This will be enought for 90% the the task they need to accomplish. The reserve compagny, Ravenwing and Deathwing will not act alone, but will replace lose as need on the battle company (3-5).

 

Big opperation is the same but you have a battle barge add to the force, A master will be assign to it and the battle compagny will move inside, the strike cruiser of the compagny assign will stay at the rock for repair/maintenance during the major opperation.

 

In the rare occasion a single compagny or battle barge is not able to accomplish a task alone, it call for help and this is where the full might of the DA is unleash.The rock move into position, all ravenwing and deathwing squad are call back and come under control of the respective grand master.

 

We will soon learn more about the other wing and if they can be adapt to 40k or if they stay relic from the past.

 

The other wing are so specific i don't see a use for them outside of narative play. The Ironwing is probably the easier to implement with only Dreadnought, Tank and techmarine. Same for Dreadwing, just get all your special/heavy weapon in your collection, add 1 damage to all weapon and on wound roll of 6 mortal wound, call it Dreadwing protocol and have fun destroying your opponent!



#52
Master Sheol

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The Rock is big enough to accomodate all DA chapter
They don't Have the various companies scattered in the galaxy on battlebarges
The organisation you are thinking of is the one of the Black Templars
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“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#53
UtariOnzo

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We know from various books that each company has a Strike Cruiser assigned to it, but so does the Ravenwing. Sammael commands a significant sized force of Ravenwing directly, along with the Strike Cruiser and other assets, in the Legacy of Caliban series. The Deathwing appear to operate much more loosely, but I don’t see any evidence that the various companies are ‘assigned’ a dedicated squad of Deathwing or Ravenwing. Instead, there’s a very fluid command structure through the novels and codex lore, where elements of the 1st and 2nd company can be deployed to a given warzone alongside battle companies assigned to the field. The line companies seem to be called on/diverted to support their elite brethren just as much as the Wings are called on/diverted to help Line Companies (especially if there’s a wiff of a Fallen rumour)

TL;DR all the Chapter’s assets are assigned as Azrael seems to see fit to what all given ‘regular’ campaigns need, and when it comes to dealing with the Fallen 1st and 2nd company assets are assigned in a more ‘consensus’ based manner within the wider inner circle. This totally fits the Dark Angel genetype as flexible tacticians.
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#54
jaxom

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The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed
DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it


This was part of the original reason given in lore for why the Dark Angels are a codex chapter. The version of the Codex Astartes they use specifies 6-9 are reserve companies and one company needs to be focused on fast attack; it doesn’t specify that it had to be the reserve company. Making it the second company was unusual, but codex compliant.

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#55
JimVandy85

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Honestly? I wish the dark angels would revert back to their heresy color scheme and markings. The black, white and red looks so good. Plus, the knightly vibe from 30k just rocks. I know we can paint our minis whatever color we want but it makes it very difficult sometimes when you're trying to stay with the fluff of the army.

#56
WrathOfTheLion

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It is difficult to revert back to the 30k heraldry - they're only now publishing what some of it is.

I think they are more likely now to have a unified direction of where to go with the lore, now that they have written Crusade.

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#57
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Honestly? I wish the dark angels would revert back to their heresy color scheme and markings. The black, white and red looks so good. Plus, the knightly vibe from 30k just rocks. I know we can paint our minis whatever color we want but it makes it very difficult sometimes when you're trying to stay with the fluff of the army.

They obviously won’t, however, for the same reason GW is so reluctant to kill off any character: it would “invalidate” too many existing players’ armies... Only thing I could see them do is introduce more wings...

#58
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Interesting in the new article they published for the 'Avenging Son' novel is the map with warzones and occupations from chaos, which shows a quite large one at the Somnium Stars, where the Fallen legion was/is gathering.

 

Editing to add map - It's an interesting thing there. It could mean they are meeting up with some other Chaos forces, or that even in the Indomitus crusade timeline, they've already started carving out some territory.

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Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 07 August 2020 - 02:27 PM.

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#59
Master Sheol

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The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed
DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it

This was part of the original reason given in lore for why the Dark Angels are a codex chapter. The version of the Codex Astartes they use specifies 6-9 are reserve companies and one company needs to be focused on fast attack; it doesn’t specify that it had to be the reserve company. Making it the second company was unusual, but codex compliant.
Nope
The Codex Astartes specify that the 8th reserve company is an assault company
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#60
jaxom

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The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed
DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it

This was part of the original reason given in lore for why the Dark Angels are a codex chapter. The version of the Codex Astartes they use specifies 6-9 are reserve companies and one company needs to be focused on fast attack; it doesn’t specify that it had to be the reserve company. Making it the second company was unusual, but codex compliant.
Nope
The Codex Astartes specify that the 8th reserve company is an assault company

The Codex Astartes, as originally presented, was not a monolithic, source of orthodoxy. There were multiple versions, based off different transcription traditions, some with parts added or removed based off biases of those involved or based off unintended source confusion. There’s a reason the Legion list and second founding chapters were from an apocrypha and mentions of a different apocrypha which listed a different number of Ultramarine successor chapters. Part of what made the Ultramarines exemplars is that they were supposed to be the closest to the root/original with the least accidental deviation. An analogy could be made, but I don’t feel comfortable bringing up religion.

The idea that all codex complaint chapters are following the same Codex Astartes is relatively new and more from previous lore being dropped or no longer stressed.

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#61
Master Sheol

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The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed
DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it

This was part of the original reason given in lore for why the Dark Angels are a codex chapter. The version of the Codex Astartes they use specifies 6-9 are reserve companies and one company needs to be focused on fast attack; it doesn’t specify that it had to be the reserve company. Making it the second company was unusual, but codex compliant.
Nope
The Codex Astartes specify that the 8th reserve company is an assault company
The Codex Astartes, as originally presented, was not a monolithic, source of orthodoxy. There were multiple versions, based off different transcription traditions, some with parts added or removed based off biases of those involved or based off unintended source confusion. There’s a reason the Legion list and second founding chapters were from an apocrypha and mentions of a different apocrypha which listed a different number of Ultramarine successor chapters. Part of what made the Ultramarines exemplars is that they were supposed to be the closest to the root/original with the least accidental deviation. An analogy could be made, but I don’t feel comfortable bringing up religion.

The idea that all codex complaint chapters are following the same Codex Astartes is relatively new and more from previous lore being dropped or no longer stressed.
Codex Astartes was presented the first time during 2nd edition 25 years ago and the 8th reserve company was already the assault company and according to the lore RG wrote it this way
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#62
solarisqc

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In older book, all assault marine are trained to use Bike and Land speeder, there is no biker or land speeder unit but it's the assault squad that use them instead of jump pack. The DA choose to not use this part of the codec astarte and instead have a permanend company of bike and speeder, the ravenwing.

 

i don't know the Whie scar enought, but for normal marine, they have 2 assault squad on each battle company that may be deploy on bike or land speeder and the complete 8th company can be deploy on bike and speeder.

 

For the DA and successor, the assault squad are not allow/trained to use bike and speeder, I imagine the Ravenwing recruit his member from the scout biker, but i don't know if any lore have ever describe how a DA become a member of the Ravenwing.



#63
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The Rock is big enough to accomodate all DA chapter
They don't Have the various companies scattered in the galaxy on battlebarges
The organisation you are thinking of is the one of the Black Templars

 

I know the Rock is big enought for everyone, bit it can't be everywhere at once.

 

The DA now is a crusader chapter exactly like the Black Templar. If you look deeper in the lore background, EVERY first founding chapter may be scatter arround the galaxy abord strike cruiser/battle barge, this his how/why they can be part of any major conflict, if they only stay close to the fortress monastery of the chapter, you will never see a Space Wolf and an ultramarine compagny fighting together.

 

New chapter may be assign to specific region of the galaxy and don't move alot, but all first founding chapter have history/link/oath, as far as the great cruisade that give them reason to move arround the galaxy.

 

This may change in the new lore with the Cicatrix Maledictum making travel harder.



#64
Master Sheol

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The Rock is big enough to accomodate all DA chapter
They don't Have the various companies scattered in the galaxy on battlebarges
The organisation you are thinking of is the one of the Black Templars


I know the Rock is big enought for everyone, bit it can't be everywhere at once.

The DA now is a crusader chapter exactly like the Black Templar. If you look deeper in the lore background, EVERY first founding chapter may be scatter arround the galaxy abord strike cruiser/battle barge, this his how/why they can be part of any major conflict, if they only stay close to the fortress monastery of the chapter, you will never see a Space Wolf and an ultramarine compagny fighting together.

New chapter may be assign to specific region of the galaxy and don't move alot, but all first founding chapter have history/link/oath, as far as the great cruisade that give them reason to move arround the galaxy.

This may change in the new lore with the Cicatrix Maledictum making travel harder.
This is only because the Imperium is at war under RG and not because the organisation of the Chapters
BT are a Crusading chapter since its founding but other chapters are not
Most chapters still use the recruitment manager totally by the 10th company while in the BT each crusade manages to recruit the marines they needed
A centralized recruitment system is typical of a chapter that is not permanently crusadong but wages war from a single fortress when needed
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#65
Master Sheol

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In older book, all assault marine are trained to use Bike and Land speeder, there is no biker or land speeder unit but it's the assault squad that use them instead of jump pack. The DA choose to not use this part of the codec astarte and instead have a permanend company of bike and speeder, the ravenwing.

i don't know the Whie scar enought, but for normal marine, they have 2 assault squad on each battle company that may be deploy on bike or land speeder and the complete 8th company can be deploy on bike and speeder.

For the DA and successor, the assault squad are not allow/trained to use bike and speeder, I imagine the Ravenwing recruit his member from the scout biker, but i don't know if any lore have ever describe how a DA become a member of the Ravenwing.

In DA 2nd edition Codex it Was states that the Marines of the 8th company were trailer to use bikes and LS too cause they were the main source of RW members (eventi if in rules the RW was the only company for bikes and LS Units)
In the 2nd release of 3rd edition DA supplement to Codex SM there was Aldo Units of green bikes and LS to show these RW in training Units from the 8th company
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#66
clanfield

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i like the deathwing as a layer ith the inner circle higher in knowledge even possable degrees with in this from masters and such



#67
jaxom

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The same goes for the reserve companies that gives specific squads to battle companies as needed
DW and RW operates as the 1st company of any other chapter giving elements to the battle companies when the mission requires it

This was part of the original reason given in lore for why the Dark Angels are a codex chapter. The version of the Codex Astartes they use specifies 6-9 are reserve companies and one company needs to be focused on fast attack; it doesn’t specify that it had to be the reserve company. Making it the second company was unusual, but codex compliant.
Nope
The Codex Astartes specify that the 8th reserve company is an assault company
The Codex Astartes, as originally presented, was not a monolithic, source of orthodoxy. There were multiple versions, based off different transcription traditions, some with parts added or removed based off biases of those involved or based off unintended source confusion. There’s a reason the Legion list and second founding chapters were from an apocrypha and mentions of a different apocrypha which listed a different number of Ultramarine successor chapters. Part of what made the Ultramarines exemplars is that they were supposed to be the closest to the root/original with the least accidental deviation. An analogy could be made, but I don’t feel comfortable bringing up religion.

The idea that all codex complaint chapters are following the same Codex Astartes is relatively new and more from previous lore being dropped or no longer stressed.
Codex Astartes was presented the first time during 2nd edition 25 years ago and the 8th reserve company was already the assault company and according to the lore RG wrote it this way
And it was the in-universe version of the Bible. Numerous apocrypha, different versions conflicted, etc. The broad strokes common to all that defined codex compliance were 10 companies, 10 squads each, 10 marines per squad. That made a chapter compliant. That’s how chapters like the Ultramarines and Novamarines could get reputations for being more orthodox than other codex compliant chapters. It’s why Iron Snakes are codex compliant. It’s why Space Wolves aren’t codex compliant and why Salamanders have special dispensation.

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#68
WrathOfTheLion

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I think they will look more towards the HH lore than the old RT-3E lore, but they could go back there. Given what I've read, the existing state has been around for 25 years. Although I recognize that it was different in the past, over two decades is not relatively recent.

Interesting to me is that the Primaris range has a lot of the tooling to implement the Hexagrammaton, as it has the flexibility. I do wonder if we will see something interesting once the 30k lore is fully out there.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 08 August 2020 - 03:11 AM.

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#69
solarisqc

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I hope the DA updated the vanguard tech to be use by the Ravenwing and Deathwing. They already tell us how the Omniscramblers was usefull for the Ravenwing and how the Divinator-class Auspexes give data to the inner circle.

 

It will be realy nice in the future if we see Ravenwing unit with Omniscramblers and Deathwing unit with Divinator-class Auspexes.

 

The Invictor Tactical warsuit is another realy good addition to our chapter. It's slower than bike and speeder but the fact it's almost silent make it realy usefull for hunting the fallen. Add a teleport homer and it will be perfect to call in the Deathwing. The autonomy the pilot need to have sound like it will fit into inner circle. DA don't realy like ''warriors who display an aptitude for swift independent thought'' running uncheck. I think the Invictor will realy fit in the Ravenwing as a primaris version of Blacknight. Under the command of Samael, but with the roles of protecting Ravenwing.



#70
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I have plans on starting the Fifth Company of my army, as a Primaris-only side to the army.

 

I think I'll be using the Bladeguard as the Veterans of said Company. Which means they will be greenwing, regardless of their keywords.


Edited by Berzul, 08 August 2020 - 05:00 AM.

"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

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#71
Master Sheol

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I hope the DA updated the vanguard tech to be use by the Ravenwing and Deathwing. They already tell us how the Omniscramblers was usefull for the Ravenwing and how the Divinator-class Auspexes give data to the inner circle.

It will be realy nice in the future if we see Ravenwing unit with Omniscramblers and Deathwing unit with Divinator-class Auspexes.

The Invictor Tactical warsuit is another realy good addition to our chapter. It's slower than bike and speeder but the fact it's almost silent make it realy usefull for hunting the fallen. Add a teleport homer and it will be perfect to call in the Deathwing. The autonomy the pilot need to have sound like it will fit into inner circle. DA don't realy like ''warriors who display an aptitude for swift independent thought'' running uncheck. I think the Invictor will realy fit in the Ravenwing as a primaris version of Blacknight. Under the command of Samael, but with the roles of protecting Ravenwing.

Yes
The ideas are cool but the fact is that those equipments are in units that are green now and so they don't know about the fallen
The hope is like You said that the same equipments will be used by RW and DW units
In fact a DW variant of the invictor warsuit would be cool

Edited by Master Sheol, 08 August 2020 - 10:31 AM.

“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#72
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One thing about the whole Deathwing is made up entirely of TDA idea is that according to the lore, it doesn’t hold up. Not for every successor anyway. The Dark Angels are unique in the dact that they have enough suits of terminator armour to equip an entire company, which means that their successors would have to make do with regukar PA armoured DW members because they wouldn’t be able to equip each with his own set of TDA.

#73
Master Sheol

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One thing about the whole Deathwing is made up entirely of TDA idea is that according to the lore, it doesn’t hold up. Not for every successor anyway. The Dark Angels are unique in the dact that they have enough suits of terminator armour to equip an entire company, which means that their successors would have to make do with regukar PA armoured DW members because they wouldn’t be able to equip each with his own set of TDA.

When DA splitted into 5/6 Chapters during second founding they didn't had just 100 TDA and made all DW in TDA not giving any to the successors. It Was meant that they had enough TDA to equip successors too in full TDA for the first company
Also DA are meant to hold a lot of old tech so it's not unlikely that they can mantain and build TDA easier than other Chapters
In addiction DA had less successors than other Chapters even if they have one of the purest geneseed ever cause the Lords of Terra are suspicious about the "legionarism" that DA have towards their successors
Not all Chapters made with DA geneseed are unforgiven cause the DA test them before giving them the knowledge about the fall of Caliban
So for all these reasons i guess that all Unforgiven Chapters are able to have a full TDA first company
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#74
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One thing about the whole Deathwing is made up entirely of TDA idea is that according to the lore, it doesn’t hold up. Not for every successor anyway. The Dark Angels are unique in the dact that they have enough suits of terminator armour to equip an entire company, which means that their successors would have to make do with regukar PA armoured DW members because they wouldn’t be able to equip each with his own set of TDA.

When DA splitted into 5/6 Chapters during second founding they didn't had just 100 TDA and made all DW in TDA not giving any to the successors. It Was meant that they had enough TDA to equip successors too in full TDA for the first company
What you said simply ignored years of fluff, though. For quite a few editions, the DA Codex was very specific: they were the only chapter with enough TDA to outfit a whole company. Never were their successors mentioned as having access to as many, not for quite a few editions at least. The story has evolved with years, I’m sure (and I haven’t read the last one or two DA ‘dexes) but pretending all of a sudden that all unforgiven chapters, including the pnes that were not part of the second founding, would have access to a full complement of TDAs is quite the stretch, considering we have established chapters known to barely have any because the relics are so rare...

#75
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I was never in the understanding that successors had a full TDA first company. I always understood as much, that successors TRAINED in similar ways as the Deathwing and Ravenwing (thus, gaining the keywords), and were used for similar (while not necessarily IDENTICAL) roles, but that the 1st and 2nd company of successor chapters then had their 1st and 2nd companies organized either close to the First Legion, or as the codex dictates, or something in between.

 

I.E.: Successors do not necessarily have the same exact structure as the Dark Angels, but they have their own inner circles, which in turn are part of a larger circle controlled by the Dark Angels Chapter Master (which, in essence, means the Dark Angels and their successors operate as a disguised Legion, of sorts). Successors have their own versions of the Deathwing, the Ravenwing, and the Inner Circle, and follow similar training, combat doctrines and tactics as the original Deathwing and Ravenwing, but their DW and RW elements do not necessarily organize themselves as the Dark Angels have them organized. Sometimes they might even be just elements in the regular companies.

 

I take my own chapter as an example.

 

In the Wings of Dawn veterans are trained as Deathwing (although, it has another name in the chapter, obviously), and assault marines are trained as Ravenwing (although, again, it has another name). Then the 1st Company is "deathwing", but only about half of it wears TDA. The other half or so, wears PA. The "Ravenwing" element is in one half or so of the 8th company, with the other half of the 8th company being assault marines, not bikers or landspeer pilots.

 

Then, each battle company has 1 squad of "Deathwing", which are the company veterans. They wear TDA and fight as the DW do. Also, each battle company has the 1st assault squad in bikes and a support speeder (per the old Ravenwing Attack Squadron formation), and these guys are RW. Each company has a bulk of "greenwing", and one DW and one RW element in it, for support, forming the triad of formations to create a combined force.

 

Should the army need more DW or more RW, they tap into the 1st or the 8th company for reinforcements.


"Fiat lux!"
- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

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