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DA in 40k, past, present and future (indomitus) + supplement


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#76
Master Sheol

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GW never stated that DA successors don't have a full TDA "DW" or full bikes/LS "RW"

In all the codexes i have (2nd to 8th edition) there are no rules for "DW" veterans in PA for DA or successors so IMHO all Unforgiven have a TDA 1st company

Edited by Master Sheol, 08 August 2020 - 04:17 PM.

“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#77
Berzul

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I think this is a problem about lorre clashing with rules.

GW had no way of actually making the game consistent, when having one chapter be "special" in its configuration, whem then bringing in successors into the mix.

It has not been stated one way or the other in an official capacity, but it stands to reason that there simply are not enough suits of TDA to outfit every single successor, across ten thousand years of history.

It makes sense, although it has not been stated as such anywhere I know (and, disclaimer: I could be entirely wrong here), that successors just have varying quantities of suits of TDA, chapter to chapter.

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#78
WrathOfTheLion

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I guess we will see some other bulking out of the DW, with repulsors and perhaps redemptor dreadnoughts as well.

I would much prefer that models typically painted as Deathwing (Land raiders, ven dreadnoughts, etc.) actually get something better for it than having to expend CP to assign the DW keyword.

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#79
Master Sheol

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I think this is a problem about lorre clashing with rules.

GW had no way of actually making the game consistent, when having one chapter be "special" in its configuration, whem then bringing in successors into the mix.

It has not been stated one way or the other in an official capacity, but it stands to reason that there simply are not enough suits of TDA to outfit every single successor, across ten thousand years of history.

It makes sense, although it has not been stated as such anywhere I know (and, disclaimer: I could be entirely wrong here), that successors just have varying quantities of suits of TDA, chapter to chapter.

GW never stated the opposite
In MY Head canon unforgiven have enough TDA for All successors to have full TDA 1st company
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#80
Berzul

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I think this is a problem about lorre clashing with rules.

GW had no way of actually making the game consistent, when having one chapter be "special" in its configuration, whem then bringing in successors into the mix.

It has not been stated one way or the other in an official capacity, but it stands to reason that there simply are not enough suits of TDA to outfit every single successor, across ten thousand years of history.

It makes sense, although it has not been stated as such anywhere I know (and, disclaimer: I could be entirely wrong here), that successors just have varying quantities of suits of TDA, chapter to chapter.

GW never stated the opposite
In MY Head canon unforgiven have enough TDA for All successors to have full TDA 1st company

 

But, that is precisely my point. There has been no statement to the opposite of either stance. So, one way or the other, it is head cannon.

 

You can believe that there are enough suits of TDA for everyone, or you can believe that there are not enough.


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- Battle cry of the Wings of Dawn, a Dark Angel's Successor Chapter

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#81
solarisqc

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I think the DA are able to build TDA on the Rock, i see no reason why they will not be able to supply the unforgiven with TDA considering they are probably also building Dark Talon, Stasis bomb and warp canon for them.

 

I think we can asume the DA have access to lost tech they don't want to share with the Mechanicum, but maybe they have share the STC for those equipements with other Unforgiven chapter.

 

We need to remember the 1st is the only legion that predate the Imperium, fight with the Emperor for a realy long time before Horus was found and they may have hiden alot of old tech on Caliban when they build the fortress monastery after the discorery of the Lion and on the Rock when they build it after the fall of Caliban.

 

I will not be surprise if the DA have a fully working STC on the rock that is working 24/7 just to produce the rare tech that nobody else use in the galaxy except other Unforgiven chapter.



#82
Spinsanity

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I think the DA are able to build TDA on the Rock, i see no reason why they will not be able to supply the unforgiven with TDA considering they are probably also building Dark Talon, Stasis bomb and warp canon for them.


And I assume they also have somehow managed to get their hands on the remains of the Emperor’s own armour to chip away at and put into every new suit’s Crux Terminatus, or has that piece of lore been done away with over the years?

#83
solarisqc

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I think the DA are able to build TDA on the Rock, i see no reason why they will not be able to supply the unforgiven with TDA considering they are probably also building Dark Talon, Stasis bomb and warp canon for them.


And I assume they also have somehow managed to get their hands on the remains of the Emperor’s own armour to chip away at and put into every new suit’s Crux Terminatus, or has that piece of lore been done away with over the years?

 

I think every Loyalist Legion receive a small part of the Emperor armor, if you put a realy small piece in the crux terminatus, atom size, a small chunk the size of a finger will be enought to make 1 terminator armor for every star in the galaxy.

 

Even if the piece inside the Crux terminatus is the size of a grain of sand, a  single part of the emperor armor like a glove will be enought to make millions of Crux terminatus.

 

You can explain this part of the lore saying all legion receive a small part from the Mechanicus that have enought left for building countless Crux, and when the Mechanicus create a new chapter, they give them a supply of terminator suit for mayby 2-5 squad and are gift a small slice of the Emperor armor to be use to make new teminator armor.

 

Terminator is not a lost tech, many chapter/forgeworld can make them, it's just they are extremely long to build.



#84
UtariOnzo

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That piece of lore has never been realistic, and should be taken with a grain of salt for years, especially as it doesn’t just apply to DA but all chapters of all lineages that posses TDA. That’s a heck of a lot of Crux to require bits of armour in. Still, a lot of this is going waaaay off on a tangent that probably needs its own thread. Just to add in though, we know from the most recent Codexes that the DA deathwing deployed in Company strength along with atleast one other successor’s 1st company, also at company strength in full TDA, which lends itself as recent evidence to some Successors having ample supply of TDA as well

#85
Spinsanity

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So, I went digging a bit and stand somewhat corrected...

Terminator suits are very valuable and often very old, many dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. since then, however, much of the technology of their manufacture has been lost and each Chapter treasures their supply of Terminator suits as religiously as their Chapter relics and artefacts.


It is believed that when the Dark Angels Legion was divided, the Terminator armour-equipped Assault company was divided into a number of 100-strong units and each assigned to a Chapter formed from the Legion.

But assuming each kept only 100, that still doesn’t explain how 3rd founding and up successors would have gotten their hands on a hundred suits each...

#86
jaxom

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Also note that it’s since been retconed that terminator suits were experimental tech during the Great Crusade and not directly from the Dark Age of Technology.

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#87
solarisqc

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DA and successor have alof of TDA because it's a plot armor for them biggrin.png

 

If we forgot about the TDA, what make Deathwing special vs 1st company of other chapter.

 

They are fearless, in older lore, Deathwing terminator was the only marine that didn't get mind wipe after fighting deamon alongside Grey knight. This have been retcon a long time ago but in old background every marine was mindwipe by the Ordo Maleus after exposition to Chaos, except Deathwing.

 

They have close tie to the Ravenwing, no other chapter outside the unforgiven have 2 companies always working together like the Deathwing and Ravenwing.

 

They like teleporting to battle. Long time ago every terminator armor included teleport homers, in 3ed teleport homers was a piece of wargear that you can give to any sergent if you want. Sergent Naaman was able to call the Deathwing on Piscina because he was equiped with a teleport homer. (Naaman was a scout sergent member of the Deathwing) in 5e all Ravenwing bike have teleport homer buildit every bike. Now it can be represent by the combined assault stratagen, even if they say nothing about the homer in the description, we can presume it's there.

 

What make Deathwing special is not only the TDA, but its a realy big part of them. 

 

A  ''primaris Deathwing''  with only Bladeguard will never be able to act like the Deathwing, same for Gravis.

 

Whatever road GW choose for the Deathwing, if it's not including a way for every member to teleport, fight/capture a target and teleport back to ship in orbit, it will not be able to act like the Deathwing we all know and it will break the way this company work.



#88
Master Sheol

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DA and successor have alof of TDA because it's a plot armor for them biggrin.png

If we forgot about the TDA, what make Deathwing special vs 1st company of other chapter.

They are fearless, in older lore, Deathwing terminator was the only marine that didn't get mind wipe after fighting deamon alongside Grey knight. This have been retcon a long time ago but in old background every marine was mindwipe by the Ordo Maleus after exposition to Chaos, except Deathwing.

They have close tie to the Ravenwing, no other chapter outside the unforgiven have 2 companies always working together like the Deathwing and Ravenwing.

They like teleporting to battle. Long time ago every terminator armor included teleport homers, in 3ed teleport homers was a piece of wargear that you can give to any sergent if you want. Sergent Naaman was able to call the Deathwing on Piscina because he was equiped with a teleport homer. (Naaman was a scout sergent member of the Deathwing) in 5e all Ravenwing bike have teleport homer buildit every bike. Now it can be represent by the combined assault stratagen, even if they say nothing about the homer in the description, we can presume it's there.

What make Deathwing special is not only the TDA, but its a realy big part of them.

A ''primaris Deathwing'' with only Bladeguard will never be able to act like the Deathwing, same for Gravis.

Whatever road GW choose for the Deathwing, if it's not including a way for every member to teleport, fight/capture a target and teleport back to ship in orbit, it will not be able to act like the Deathwing we all know and it will break the way this company work.

I agree
And about RW having built in teleport homers you can clearly see them in the BK bikes in the form of a little antenna just under the winged back banner of each bike

Edited by Master Sheol, 08 August 2020 - 08:30 PM.

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#89
Brother Ramael

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While things could have changed, in ( I believe) the 7th ed codex there were quite a few interesting tidbits of lore.

Basically 3 things were hinted, that the DW (and RW) is much larger than 100 units, that at least a few successor chapters can field their DW in full Termie armor ( there was a piece with I believe the Angels of Absolution deploying their full 1st company along the DW in a battle against Chaos) and that by obfuscating and misleading the DA  and their successors were often "lending" each others squads from DW and RW.

Basically they are playing the Legion game in a much deeper way than it seems, since they basically share squads between each other; if they actually still do that who owns how many armors becomes somewhat immaterial.


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#90
jaxom

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Short term to medium term I don't think there will be any major changes to Dark Angels FOC and preferred tactics. The new fast attack units (Outriders, Invaders, Storm Speeders) fit nicely with Ravenwing doctrines. The Bladeguard work the same niche as Company Veterans. Terminators will be better (according to insinuations from play testers via other people on the board, personally, I don't know) and still the Deathwing as we know them.


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#91
Master Sheol

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While things could have changed, in ( I believe) the 7th ed codex there were quite a few interesting tidbits of lore.
Basically 3 things were hinted, that the DW (and RW) is much larger than 100 units, that at least a few successor chapters can field their DW in full Termie armor ( there was a piece with I believe the Angels of Absolution deploying their full 1st company along the DW in a battle against Chaos) and that by obfuscating and misleading the DA and their successors were often "lending" each others squads from DW and RW.
Basically they are playing the Legion game in a much deeper way than it seems, since they basically share squads between each other; if they actually still do that who owns how many armors becomes somewhat immaterial.

Not only they share squads but also the Grand Master of various Unforgiven Chapters ottenere meet at the Rock to discuss about strategies anche wars to do and Azrael leads the various unforgiven Chapters acting like a real Supreme Gran Master of all the Unforgiven
“Battles are won by courage, by standing firm in the face of overwhelming adversity, by advancing into certain death when every instinct is screaming at you to turn.”

#92
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Folks, we are straying from tbe thread here. I love me some Terminator lore discussion, but this one is straying from the original thread!

Cheers.
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#93
solarisqc

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The last know meeting of unforgiven happen when Guliman came to the rock to give Primaris reinforcement. He did't say anything about it and even approuve the Ravenwing/Deathwing formation.



#94
Master Sheol

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The last know meeting of unforgiven happen when Guliman came to the rock to give Primaris reinforcement. He did't say anything about it and even approuve the Ravenwing/Deathwing formation.

DA accepted the primaris asking RG to keep their peculiar organisation and he agreed
Then DA first used the primaris basocally as meatshields for firstborn marines :D
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#95
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Those arguing that there wouldn't be enough TDA for a Deathwing company for all of the DA successors are neglecting the possibility of the DAs and successors of getting suits of TDA from elsewhere or building them themselves. And the bit of the Emperor's armor in every Crux Terminatus could be handwaved away as propaganda. 


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#96
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Well, GW can go one of two ways:

Change the model range
Change the lore

 

I am betting that they will make the lore change, creating a Deathwing that no longer acts the way the old Deathwing did. With teleporting being replaced with just transports.

I think it will be both, but the teleporting units will only show up when Primaris "Terminators" are made (perhaps in support of Codex: Dark Angels). I really do think they will eventually make them, because it is not as if GW needs an excuse to make a Space Marine model kit. happy.png  And course we'll also need a Teleportation Nexus terrain kit to go with them! They probably won't be called Terminators though, but some new name like Primaris Juggernauts (nasty close combat weapons oriented)/Primaris Decimators (nasty ranged weapons oriented). Three model release waves in, I think GW is only 1/3 to 1/2 done with feeding us Primaris [INSERT NEW UNIT NAME HERE] Space Marines.

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#97
Morovir

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Those arguing that there wouldn't be enough TDA for a Deathwing company for all of the DA successors are neglecting the possibility of the DAs and successors of getting suits of TDA from elsewhere or building them themselves. And the bit of the Emperor's armor in every Crux Terminatus could be handwaved away as propaganda. 

 

This is actually addressed in Pandorax. Only those suits forged in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, before the splitting of the Legions, had a bit of the Emperor's armour in them. Each of the remaining loyal Legions received a section of the Emperor's armour to incorporate into their new Terminator suits. The Dark Angels in particular are described as having forged more than a thousand suits of Terminator plate incorporating fragments of the Emperor's armour, specifically his right gauntlet, although most of those have been lost by the 41st millennium.

 

One such fragment is described as a 'tiny sliver of bright metal'


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#98
Master Sheol

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Those arguing that there wouldn't be enough TDA for a Deathwing company for all of the DA successors are neglecting the possibility of the DAs and successors of getting suits of TDA from elsewhere or building them themselves. And the bit of the Emperor's armor in every Crux Terminatus could be handwaved away as propaganda. 

 

This is actually addressed in Pandorax. Only those suits forged in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, before the splitting of the Legions, had a bit of the Emperor's armour in them. Each of the remaining loyal Legions received a section of the Emperor's armour to incorporate into their new Terminator suits. The Dark Angels in particular are described as having forged more than a thousand suits of Terminator plate incorporating fragments of the Emperor's armour, specifically his right gauntlet, although most of those have been lost by the 41st millennium.

 

One such fragment is described as a 'tiny sliver of bright metal'

 

And with this explanation (all the TDA survived to the HH and more than one thousand forged after HH) we can guess that DA has enough TDA for them and successors to have full TDA 1st company even if many were lost in 10.000 years of battle

So it's probable that DA can keep building new TDA even if the shards of the emperor armour are not available anymore

So we now know this was true for the first thousands of armours after the HH but not anymore

 

Now it will be interesting to see the evolution of the DW with the intrpoduction of porimaris units among their ranks cause their peculiar way of fighting (teleporting down to the RW homers to wreak havok on the tergets RW designed for them is their trademark and the full TDA company was the only way to make it possible on large scale

If the DW Bladeguard cannot teleport on the RW homers and/or RW Outriders and Invaders don't have homers basically those primaris units are useless for the DW+RW combined warfare tactics (and this way i will keep using firstborn units for DW and RW even if i love the new units a lot)


Edited by Master Sheol, 10 August 2020 - 12:38 PM.

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#99
Spinsanity

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Pretending the Dark Angels can keep on churning out TDA easily is hand waiving at its best. All the lore throughout 40k's history has always said it always had been difficult to produce, and is even more so since the Heresy... To just pretend that that piece of lore shouldn't apply just because we all want the I's successors to all have a hundred TDA suits each no matter what because it suits your view of how the DA works is borderline ridiculous.

The lore has always been clear, TDA is rare. Most first and second founding chapters have enough for a handful of 5-man units. Most chapter of more recent foundings can barely field one or two. Scavenged suits are prized finds and a lost suit is worth campaigning over... That the Dark Angels and some of the Unforgiven have more suits than other companies is established lore, yes. That they'd be able to manufacture new suits like hot cake? So far that's just head canon that is not based on anything the lore has in print so far

#100
Morovir

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Pandorax describes their Terminator suits as having been 'forged upon the anvils of the Rock', which suggests that they do have the capability to forge their own suits of Terminator armour.


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