18 replies to this topic

[chapter master 454]

So one thing that GW is possibly pushing is a theme of detachment restricting some HQ choices to being only so many per detachment. This means that prior, taking an extra detachment was only for ether more slots (and purely more slots) and maybe some sort toe dip into other good stuff.

 

With this possible change, a list building challenge is wanting to get more of that good stuff into your list and Captains are one of those Good Stuffs. Be it Captain Smash or Captain Re-Roll, we generally as marine players like having more than just one. So considering options, I stumbled on a thought that may not be too bad for armies to use, not just marines.

 

Pocket Patrol!

 

While CPs are a precious resource, everyone now gets 17CP to use, over the course of the game, with some armies able to get up to 22 with refund abilities with a further few armies able to get beyond that via various methods (warlord traits like what the Imperial Fists have or just Calgar or Gulliman). Even with 17CP base, that is a ton to work with for most armies would reliably get to only 13 to start with (double battalion then whatever else) with only a few ether able to run Budget Brigades or Triple Battalions which means we can play around a little. One detachment in 9th that costs little to take but offers more slots for minimal extras needed is the patrol, notably adding 2 more HQ slots but also being another detachment so getting another allotment of those restricted characters possibly coming in the future and for only 2CP. Granted, you now only have 15CP to work with (only...) but now you have more of what you want.

 

What do you guys think? Will Pocket Patrols become the new 32 we see lists take or just a cute gimmick.

[Alcyon]

From reading lots of tactics articles and doing some listbuilding, to me it looks like the default setup in 40k will become a Patrol, and then once you hit higher point games you might see people running multiple Patrols or a Battalion and a Patrol. Don't forget a Battalion offers you up to 3 HQ slots already. 

 

It's true that we have a lot of CP now in 2k pt games but it's easy to forget that there's zero incentive to take the larger detachments other than opening up additional slots, and so the motivations to take multiple troops choices is a lot lower than it was (unless ObSec is more critical than I expect with the new 9th ed mission style.) 

I guess I don't really know what the discussion in this thread is supposed to be about? Yes, more people will play patrols now? That's hardly a loyal 32 level of lockstep army setup spammed everywhere to maximize CP.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

I didn't realize why you would go to such great lengths until I looked at the new rulebook and saw they changed the Supreme Command detachment to be from 3-5 HQs to just a single Primarch/superheavy.

[chapter master 454]

I put this up for discussion because it is a sub forum about tactics and the concept may be not known or considered by many with the current way detachments seem to be incentivised which is taking fewer and by the seems of GW method, preferring only one being taken.

 

I will point out Alcyon that you kind of do agree with what I am saying and suggesting that Pocket Patrols will become a common sight, purely because they offer another detachment for things that may be detachment limited, with the main thing flying that captains and lieutenants going to 1 and 2 per detachment respectively. Part of the reason for taking the extra patrol isn't purely for more slots, by all means a battalion for most offers more than enough however it is only one detachment and thus only 1 captain would be available where as with the Patrol added you get two for whatever you want. This is kind of a nod to the fact that most lists often ran one captain as a smash or even two where as some people like myself liked to run 2 pairs of captains and lieutenants (two bubbles of re-roll 1s) for the two sections of my armies, often being the staple method.

 

So the question would become what is more valuable, the CP or the extra detachment offering more valuable HQs not because of slots not permitting but by the alleged new codex restricting us to 1 captain per detachment. My thoughts however then steer towards what it may mean overall for list building in general.

Will Patrols be the de facto detachment you always bring for extra restricted HQs for minimal CP lost or will the other specialist detachments be used for it (going down to 9CP to start but still ending the game having had 14CP total, still more than a double battalion list of 8th).

[Mandragola]

I do think that patrols as a second detachment might well become a thing. I don't think it's really equivalent to the loyal 32 (taken for the CPs and for screens, rather than costing 2) but whatever.

 

What detachment you go for is going to vary a lot. You're pretty lucky if you can build a good list from just a patrol I think, though it probably isn't bad a 1k. At 2k I think you'll almost certianly want a battalion and you might well find that even that doesn't give you enough slots.

 

However, I'm not totally convinced the extra patrol will be the way people go. That requires 3 HQs and 4 troops, by which point you're not leaving all that many points left to buy >3 heavy support, or whatever. The option of buying a spearhead-type detachment might look better. Someone who wanted a ton of heavy support might put their Warlord in a patrol, buy one troop, and then pay 3CPs for a spearkead, I guess. Then you could build an army with 2 HQs, 1 troop and 8 heavy support, if you really wanted to.

 

It does get hard to bring more than 5 HQs. You'd have to have a third detachment to do that, or 2 battalions featuring 6 troop choices as well. The number of characters people field will probably come down in future, I think.

[chapter master 454]

I do think that patrols as a second detachment might well become a thing. I don't think it's really equivalent to the loyal 32 (taken for the CPs and for screens, rather than costing 2) but whatever.

 

What detachment you go for is going to vary a lot. You're pretty lucky if you can build a good list from just a patrol I think, though it probably isn't bad a 1k. At 2k I think you'll almost certianly want a battalion and you might well find that even that doesn't give you enough slots.

 

However, I'm not totally convinced the extra patrol will be the way people go. That requires 3 HQs and 4 troops, by which point you're not leaving all that many points left to buy >3 heavy support, or whatever. The option of buying a spearhead-type detachment might look better. Someone who wanted a ton of heavy support might put their Warlord in a patrol, buy one troop, and then pay 3CPs for a spearkead, I guess. Then you could build an army with 2 HQs, 1 troop and 8 heavy support, if you really wanted to.

 

It does get hard to bring more than 5 HQs. You'd have to have a third detachment to do that, or 2 battalions featuring 6 troop choices as well. The number of characters people field will probably come down in future, I think.

 

The reason I made this was noticing that it may become a trend for GW to limit HQ options per detachment, such as how captains and lieutenants are and similarly with what tau have now (and tyranids I believe). So while yes, 3 HQs and 4 Troops seems a lot it is very feasible as I am basing this on a 2000 point standard. Only having 1 captain can be quite hard pressing to get that valuable re-roll aura around the board.

 

Ofcourse that is if captains remain as they are now. It may be that their aura completely changes so who knows. The main point of the Pocket Patrol is to give more of limited items, not so much to gain more slots of a specific thing really. It is more notable for Tau where if we go with only one detachment, we get 1 commander (our best unit next to the riptide and shield drones!) but most Tau players really want more than 1, we want as close to the limit as possible...why the Far'sight bonus is so good (2 commanders per detachment...).

So really it isn't about the slots on the chart, more the unseen slots it gives towards other things such as more Agent of the Imperium slots and so on. If GW go on with limiting HQs as may be a trend, then it is possible this is an effective means to get those slots (with the tax being only 1 extra troop really. Maxing out 3 HQs in marine is super easy and quite viable).

[Mandragola]

Interesting. I suppose that if your second detachment is a patrol, you can make your first a patrol as well instead of a battalion. That way your tax is 2 HQs and 2 troops (and 2CPs) to unlock quite a lot more slots than a battalion, and all the "1 per detachment" things you mention. 

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see people taking this kind of thing. It might make most sense for factions with sub-par troops and lots of one-per-detachment stuff. Tau might have most to gain from it. I was looking at the necron book and it seems to want to take tons of HQs, particularly after Indomitus gave them a load of new ones. They might also want to do something like this I suppose.

 

I've been trying to see if there's anyone who'd want to bring a brigade, ever. The option does exist if you want to protect your CPs, but it's a huge tax. I don't think it's justifiable now unless every single unit is really contributing. And it's harder to manage now that units tend to cost more, so filling a brigade is very tough. A pocket patrol is a much easier way to get more slots.

[Daynga-Zone]

I’ve seen some IG and GSC lists that go with brigades for the slots. They’ve got the inexpensive options to do it. Most other factions not so much.

For marines the pocket patrol works great for soup, especially if your super doctrine(s) aren’t great. For my Deathwatch it’s usually worth the 2CP to bring a unit of infiltrators an HQ or two and all of my dreadnoughts I can fit as IH so that they gain the FNP, operate at double wounds and some nice strats. I’m also thinking of playing around with stuff like a patrol of just Ragnar and a unit of assault intercessors. Might add some Bladeguard and a relic contemptor to go with him if he’s as good as I’m hoping he’ll be.

This reduces your buff flexibility a bit, but the new look out sir rules already force you to keep your buffers very close to only a few units and I find that due to mission objective placement I usually split my forces into 3 chunks. Back objective campers, one blob goes for the left objective(s) one for the right one(s).

[Alcyon]

I think we might be surprised at how many brigades we see in marines. People are going to want to run a lot of troops choices even though they aren't a big tax this edition, simply because they have ObSec and objectives are huge in 9th. Six is a lot and Troops are pretty expensive, so I'd expect to see some bolter scouts for example or zero Infiltrators since you probably have enough squads to zone out a DZ without their 12" bubbles. 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I realize that this thread is meant to cover more than just Space Marines,  but consider what you can do with Space Marines to cover your reroll auras and such:

 

1 Captain (of whatever flavor) is 1 HQ slot

2 Lts (of whatever flavor) is also 1 HQ slot

 

You can use a Dreadnought and pay 1 CP (of which, as you note, we now have many) to trigger Wisdom of the Ancients and get yourself rerolls of 1 (to hit OR to wound) for a phase TURN. I realize it's not quite the same as having a dedicated Captain, but he also shoots much better than a captain.

With this setup, you have the basics for 2 different groups of reroll auras using just a Patrol detachment.   If you're using a Battalion, you have that other HQ slot open for your support HQ: Libby, Tech, Chaplain, or whatever.

Edited by 9x19 Parabellum, 14 October 2020 - 01:24 AM.

[Alcyon]

For marines the pocket patrol works great for soup, especially if your super doctrine(s) aren’t great. For my Deathwatch it’s usually worth the 2CP to bring a unit of infiltrators an HQ or two and all of my dreadnoughts I can fit as IH so that they gain the FNP, operate at double wounds and some nice strats. I’m also thinking of playing around with stuff like a patrol of just Ragnar and a unit of assault intercessors. Might add some Bladeguard and a relic contemptor to go with him if he’s as good as I’m hoping he’ll be.

 

You know I hadn't even really considered souping, but now that the IF doctrine is junk on top of the RG one being subpar, I should reall consider a pocket patrol. Could let you do things like run all your Troops as IF for exploding 6s or IH for the FNP, Bladeguard/Outriders as White Scars for advance and charge (and Assault Hellblasters etc. for advance without -1 to hit).

[Mandragola]

I realize that this thread is meant to cover more than just Space Marines,  but consider what you can do with Space Marines to cover your reroll auras and such:

 

1 Captain (of whatever flavor) is 1 HQ slot

2 Lts (of whatever flavor) is also 1 HQ slot

 

You can use a Dreadnought and pay 1 CP (of which, as you note, we now have many) to trigger Wisdom of the Ancients and get yourself rerolls of 1 (to hit OR to wound) for a phase TURN. I realize it's not quite the same as having a dedicated Captain, but he also shoots much better than a captain.

With this setup, you have the basics for 2 different groups of reroll auras using just a Patrol detachment.   If you're using a Battalion, you have that other HQ slot open for your support HQ: Libby, Tech, Chaplain, or whatever.

The new Wisdom of the Ancients is certainly helpful, especially now that dreads seem so good. It does probably mean you only need a captain or lieutenant, rather than both. I think that the generic captains are far less automatic choices now than they were. They're probably only now essential if you're using a plasma.

 

 

For marines the pocket patrol works great for soup, especially if your super doctrine(s) aren’t great. For my Deathwatch it’s usually worth the 2CP to bring a unit of infiltrators an HQ or two and all of my dreadnoughts I can fit as IH so that they gain the FNP, operate at double wounds and some nice strats. I’m also thinking of playing around with stuff like a patrol of just Ragnar and a unit of assault intercessors. Might add some Bladeguard and a relic contemptor to go with him if he’s as good as I’m hoping he’ll be.

 

You know I hadn't even really considered souping, but now that the IF doctrine is junk on top of the RG one being subpar, I should reall consider a pocket patrol. Could let you do things like run all your Troops as IF for exploding 6s or IH for the FNP, Bladeguard/Outriders as White Scars for advance and charge (and Assault Hellblasters etc. for advance without -1 to hit).

 

Souping definitely brings advantages. Some of the chapters have pretty weak "super" doctrines but relatively strong chapter tactics. Space wolves, for example. It might work to combine SW combat stuff (hammernators, bladeguard etc.) with something like a ravenguard patrol that mostly hung back but maybe had a master of ambush or something - and deep-striking eradicators.

 

This could well be better combos than this, but the point is there are certainly options now available from souping. The obvious downside is that the cool strats you're unlocking all cost CPs, which you lose by souping.

[Karhedron]

I think the 2nd Patrol is going to be a feature of a lot of lists. Craftworld Eldar for example have a lot of their punch in the Heavy Support section of the list and I don't see 3 Heavy slots being enough once you get to ~2000 points.

[mooftak]

Don't you only get 12 CP in a 2000 point game? It lists 12 for 1001-2000 point games. Did that get errata'd and I didn't notice it? 18 CP is for 2001-3000 point games. Sorry for necro, was just browsing the tactica forum and didn't notice the last post date.

Edited by mooftak, 25 December 2020 - 08:48 PM.

[Karhedron]

Don't forget that you also get 1 CP at the start of your turn. That's where the number 17 comes from.

[Claws and Effect]

I think we might be surprised at how many brigades we see in marines. People are going to want to run a lot of troops choices even though they aren't a big tax this edition, simply because they have ObSec and objectives are huge in 9th. Six is a lot and Troops are pretty expensive, so I'd expect to see some bolter scouts for example or zero Infiltrators since you probably have enough squads to zone out a DZ without their 12" bubbles.

I haven't seen Scouts of any variety now that they're a 1 wound Elites choice.

GW basically made them so bad no one will ever use them again. They aren't saying you *can't* take them, but putting a unit that fragile in the Elites slot pretty much guarantees no one will. Especially in a faction that is as overloaded on Elites choices as Marine armies.

[Alcyon]

Absolutely, that post was back in October before the new codex dropped in Sept. and switched Scouts to an Elites choice. That plus Rites of War made my Brigade prediction completely wrong. There's no reason to have six squads at 90pts bare minimum (1/4 of your army in a brigade) when you can give BGV or some other incredibly tough unit ObSec instead. Plus, you can fit a lot of Attack Bikes and Vanguard Veterans into a small handful of slots. 

 

Looking at the latest meta updates we do see some pocket Patrols, but also plenty of Vanguards and Battalions in marines at least. Outside of marines, it looks like mostly Battalions except in soup lists where we see a lot of pocket Patrols, as you'd expect. I think this is a sign of good health in the meta/balance generally, Troops choices are worth taking 3-of and aren't just a tax, there's no units so dominant in a given faction that you're spamming the rule of 3 and warping whatever detachment you can to fit them in - though most of those units are Elites anyway and so 3 fit neatly into the 6 slots a Battalion provides.

 

Generally I think this edition is actually less reliant on HQs because of the importance of non-character infantry to perform actions and score objectives. That forces more mobility, along with more terrain which hurts the castle style of play that's really reliant on auras. Plus, armies like Ultras are suffering a little because of the aura disruption that's now available from some armies (Ad Mech, etc.) We aren't seeing a lot of herohammer which I think is great, and yet there are still some combat HQs that kick ass and have been brought out of the coward gun buff role and into the spotlight (i.e. Archons).

[Karhedron]

Plus characters with auras no longer buff themselves which can take the shine off them a bit.

Troops do not seem to be nearly as prevalent in 9th edition as I initially suspected. Having ObjSec units to hold Objectives doesn't seem to be as important as having units that can KILL ObjSec units that are holding Objectives. Units like Bladeguard Vets are great because they are durable and also because their weapons are perfect for killing other Marines. A few factions have Troop units that are tough enough to take Objectives and hold them in the face of serious opposition (Deathguard and Deathwing spring to mind and MAYBE Heavy Intercessors). But in the majority of case, Elites now do the heavy lifting in a lot of armies because they hit hard enough to sweep your opponents off Objectives.

[Alcyon]

For sure. I mostly see people playing troops as pawn units, particularly marine ones with Concealed Positions; they get on objectives early and  bait out the enemy's combat units, which can then be shot at and countercharged. Relatively powerful troops like Intercessors are really effective against enemy T3 troops in particular, but perhaps predictably are mediocre outside that. You'd much rather flip midboard objectives with brawler units like you said.