Canonically, Who Knows that the Lion is Hidden in the Rock?

[Spy_Smasher]

Hopefully, this is the right section to ask this type of question!

 

According to the Lexicanum website, only the Watchers in the Dark and the Emperor know of the Lion's current condition but I could swear that I read somewhere else that Azrael and perhaps even other current or former super-high ranking members of the Inner Circle know as well. Any fluff experts out there care to educate me?

 

Thanks.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Not fluff expert but to the best of my knowledge your information is correct. Only the Watchers in the Dark know the Lion is there.an always be retconned but do far has been holding all these editions. Edited July 31, 2020 by Chaplain Lucifer

[Brother Quinn]

Yep, as far as we know, canonically it's only the Watchers in the Dark know where the Lion is.  We can presume the Emperor may know due to his powers; however, if he did, why wouldn't he let Guilliman know that? The next biggest secret is only held by the Supreme Grand Master, currently Azrael, (and probably watchers) being that Luther was previously contained and subsequently freed from the Rock (so now someone else must have known/found out to orchestrate this).  The rest of the command structure know every secret below that.  It's like a secret hierarchy thing.

Edited July 31, 2020 by Brother Quinn

[m_r_parker]

There have been indicators in the past codices that perhaps Luther may know the Lion was somewhere in the Rock. I can't remember which codex (I think 4th) that states this, but during one of Azrael's interrogations Luther commented that only the Lion can absolve him of his sins, and that 'he (i.e. the Lion) is close'. 

As for the Emperor knowing - I'm not 100% sure if that's correct, I always read it as more of a piece of flowery prose that seeing as most of the Imperium considers the Emperor to be a god then he must be omniscient. I've always taken that with a piece of salt.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

There have been indicators in the past codices that perhaps Luther may know the Lion was somewhere in the Rock. I can't remember which codex (I think 4th) that states this, but during one of Azrael's interrogations Luther commented that only the Lion can absolve him of his sins, and that 'he (i.e. the Lion) is close'. 

As for the Emperor knowing - I'm not 100% sure if that's correct, I always read it as more of a piece of flowery prose that seeing as most of the Imperium considers the Emperor to be a god then he must be omniscient. I've always taken that with a piece of salt.

 

I am in the same boat. The Emperor might now, but only He knows whether He actually does. As to Luther I felt that him telling the Lion is close was more insane ravings, not really actual knowledge that the Lion is actually somewhat close to his current position. IIRC the quote in the codex was more that the Lion would come to absolve him of his sins and that the Lion's return is very close and getting closer, so closer in the timing sense.

[bigtrouble]

Luther was touched by the warp, it is very possible he felt the Lion in the vicinity, but the Watchers remain the only ones who know. My personal belief is there are plenty of places in the Rock that Watchers have access that even Azrael may not be aware of.

[Spy_Smasher]

I asked in the right place! :) Thank you, guys.

[Brother-Captain Gilead]

Luther was touched by the warp, it is very possible he felt the Lion in the vicinity, but the Watchers remain the only ones who know. My personal belief is there are plenty of places in the Rock that Watchers have access that even Azrael may not be aware of.

 

It is a stated fact, no need to give it that disclaimer that it is your belief. The Tuchulcha engine was one of these secrets that the Rock held, and the chamber Azrael entered as part of his elevation to the rank of Supreme Grand Master was also said to be a room that he had never seen before and never saw afterwards (although that could have just been a vision rather than a physical place).

[JJD]

Why are dark angels so accepting of Watchers in the dark.

 

What makes them different to other Xenos.

 

Has this ever been explained. I know Lion El’Jonson met them on his hunt for the Caliban Lion but is there a reason why they are trusted to know more of the rocks secrets than the supreme grand master.

[UtariOnzo]

No one in the Legion taught the Watchers anything they knew, rather the opposite. It’s the Watchers that often know more and choose to reveal some of the secrets to various members of the 1st at different times, such as Azrael being shown the Tuchulcha. They’ve historically also shown no ill will to the legion, and have at times helped members (various horus heresy books showing the watchers helping Lion and Zahariel)

 

They’re also hinted at some way to be connected to, or sympathetic of, the Cabal of xenos that are trying to destroy Chaos but may well have had some kind of ideological split.

Edited August 3, 2020 by UtariOnzo

[JJD]

I understand what you are saying but the imperium doesn’t generally say ‘oh hey these Xenos know more about our space ship then we do let patiently wait for them to show us more over the next 10,000 years. I hope they don’t keep any thing from us or have any ulterior motive with shady cables we don’t know about’.

 

The imperial standard practice is more ‘arrghgh a Xenos on my space ship pew pew lasers dead Xenos’

 

What is different about the watchers.

 

I’m haven’t read the story of Azrael being shown the tuchulacha does that explain the relationship.

[Shadowseer]

I understand what you are saying but the imperium doesn’t generally say ‘oh hey these Xenos know more about our space ship then we do let patiently wait for them to show us more over the next 10,000 years. I hope they don’t keep any thing from us or have any ulterior motive with shady cables we don’t know about’.

 

The imperial standard practice is more ‘arrghgh a Xenos on my space ship pew pew lasers dead Xenos’

 

What is different about the watchers.

 

I’m haven’t read the story of Azrael being shown the tuchulacha does that explain the relationship.

The watchers pre-date the ascension of the Order to become the First legion.

 

They were native to Caliban before it's rediscovery by the Imperium.

 

Also no one who tried to interfere with them lived to tell of the experience.

[UtariOnzo]

Also to a certain extent the wider legion/chapter doesn’t seem to know they’re xenos. They seem impervious to harm so trying to cull them doesn’t work, can't forcefully extract secrets from them and they appear to play a passive, almost subservient role at other times. The Imperium isn’t out to genocide every xenos species, even during the great crusade, and there has been lore detailing xenos species being allowed to continue to exist, even if as a servile class.

 

If you (the wider legion) don’t know what Watchers actually know, how do you know they know more than you? It’s hard to say you need to trust something when you’re not even aware they’re privy to information you need to trust them to keep.

[WrathOfTheLion]

The watchers are incorporeal most of the time, they don't cause trouble and they are effective defending against Chaos. For the purposes of the chapter, they are essentially just little fairy helpers that offer good luck and some protection. Any greater agenda of the Watchers is unknown to them.

 

As said above, especially in the Great Crusade, the imperium was out to liberate humanity from hostile xenos, not necessarily destroy all of them. See how Horus was open to negotiations with the Interex, who had Xenos allies.

[Zustiur]

If the heresy books are to be treated as canon, most of the time the watchers are invisible and undetected by even psykers. They aren't killed because they aren't even noticed most of the time. When they are, it's because they choose to be noticed and want to help.

[Karhedron]

Yep, as far as we know, canonically it's only the Watchers in the Dark know where the Lion is.  We can presume the Emperor may know due to his powers; however, if he did, why wouldn't he let Guilliman know that?

That is a very good question. How much help could a Primarch have been over the last 9000 years? How much easier would Roboute's life be if he had even one brother to talk to? Admittedly he and the Lion weren't on the best of terms but they seemed to have [pretty much settled their differences by the end of Ruinstorm.

 

Out of Universe we know that GW only decided to bring back a Loyalist Primarch at the end of 7th and felt that any returns should be suitably seismic events for the Imperium. In-Universe, perhaps the Emperor is keeping the few remaining loyalist Primarchs in reserve for when nothing else can save the day. All the surviving Loyalist Primarchs at the end of the Heresy disappeared in sufficiently mysterious circumstances that they could theoretically return at almost any time. Roboute is the only Primarch whose location was known to the Imperium at large which is part of the reason GW chose him for their first returnee. The Lion is known out of Universe so would be another easy candidate. Having Russ, Corax or The Khan return would involve backstory explaining where they have been, although in Corax's case, "Shadow of the Past" has started on this path.

[Master Sheol]

 

Yep, as far as we know, canonically it's only the Watchers in the Dark know where the Lion is.  We can presume the Emperor may know due to his powers; however, if he did, why wouldn't he let Guilliman know that?

That is a very good question. How much help could a Primarch have been over the last 9000 years? How much easier would Roboute's life be if he had even one brother to talk to? Admittedly he and the Lion weren't on the best of terms but they seemed to have [pretty much settled their differences by the end of Ruinstorm.

 

Out of Universe we know that GW only decided to bring back a Loyalist Primarch at the end of 7th and felt that any returns should be suitably seismic events for the Imperium. In-Universe, perhaps the Emperor is keeping the few remaining loyalist Primarchs in reserve for when nothing else can save the day. All the surviving Loyalist Primarchs at the end of the Heresy disappeared in sufficiently mysterious circumstances that they could theoretically return at almost any time. Roboute is the only Primarch whose location was known to the Imperium at large which is part of the reason GW chose him for their first returnee. The Lion is known out of Universe so would be another easy candidate. Having Russ, Corax or The Khan return would involve backstory explaining where they have been, although in Corax's case, "Shadow of the Past" has started on this path.

 

GW decided to return RG just because the UM are the posterboys

Other primarchs like Russ, Corax, Dorn and Vulkan are much more beloved by the 40K players than BobbyG that is one of the least interesting

If GW decided to return Russ or Dorn the sellings of one of these alone would make the profit of GW for like 6 months

 

Canonically only the Watchers knows where the Lion is currently sleeping and the Emperor maybe according to the fluff

The Emperor could tell this to BobbyG or not but the fact is that BobbyG even if he knew where the Lion is has no power to wake up the Lion, probably only the Emperor can and if the prophecy is right only when the Lion Sword will be reforged and if that is the sword that Cypher is carrying BobbyG just denied him to see the Emperor

 

But it's good this way IMHO

Only the worst loyalist primarch alive and kicking but all the demon primarchs in action makes the things ugly for the Imperium and makes the situation more interesting

If GW made return the Lion or Russ or Dorn it would be too easy for them to kick Chaos asses cause they are far better than BobbyG the man who destroyed the legions and now is killing firstborn marines too :P

Edited August 10, 2020 by Master Sheol

[WrathOfTheLion]

Guilliman I think was the right primarch to bring back, as his location was known and there weren't really any lore obstacles to cover. The Lion would basically require the Fallen plotline to be resolved or advanced in some manner to make any sense. Guilliman just needed his injury healed. As well, since he was the Lord Commander of the Imperium when he was fatally injured, him coming back and resuming the title makes sense.

 

They've now started moving forward with the Fallen plotline, but it could be a slow move. However, I can't see them advancing the timeline any further without running into it with how they set it up. Would Azrael just let the Fallen go build their empire for hundreds of years while he knows about it? That would make no sense at all. That conflict has to begin sooner rather than later.

Edited August 10, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Master Sheol]

Guilliman I think was the right primarch to bring back, as his location was known and there weren't really any lore obstacles to cover. The Lion would basically require the Fallen plotline to be resolved or advanced in some manner to make any sense. Guilliman just needed his injury healed. As well, since he was the Lord Commander of the Imperium when he was fatally injured, him coming back and resuming the title makes sense.

 

They've now started moving forward with the Fallen plotline, but it could be a slow move. However, I can't see them advancing the timeline any further without running into it with how they set it up. Would Azrael just let the Fallen go build their empire for hundreds of years while he knows about it? That would make no sense at all. That conflict has to begin sooner rather than later.

Yes BobbyG position was known but he is still the less interesting primarch, there are many more beloved than him and he just is the primarch of the poster boys of 40K (the less interesting chapter of all, less interesting even of some chapter we just know the name and the hoto of one miniature)

So i think the main reason is because he is the primarch of the UM

I am sure that if he could Goodwyn would like to sculpt Russ, Dorn, Jonson or Vulkan first, BobbyG is such a boring character (he is the most boring loyalist one in 30k too)

 

We all know the only reason he returned first was that (the poster boy primarch) and not for his qualities or charisma

 

It's like the scene from Justice League (the movie) when Flash asks Batman what was his superpower and he replied "i am rich" ;)

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think him being Primarch of the UM was a large factor, but as well that if they need a Primarch to get bogged down ruling and not doing, RG is the right one for the job. Regardless, any further there is completely off topic.

Only the watchers, and perhaps Luther, know where the Lion is, and there are some prerequisites to be filled for him to awaken.

 

Edit: We can start another thread somewhere on why you think RG is boring, doesn't make sense, etc., just don't think it makes sense in one about who knows about the Lion on the rock.

Edited August 10, 2020 by WrathOfTheLion

[Spinsanity]

We all know the only reason he returned first was that (the poster boy primarch) and not for his qualities or charisma

 

I'm pretty sure him being the XIII Legion Primarch is just a side benefit. If anything, the reason they brought him back first was to be able to push the Primaris line - not so they could sell a Primarch - and the story they came up with (him setting things in motion while he was the Emperor's stand-in) can plausibly be argued as the most acceptable one they could have come up with...

[Aeri]

I think it's kinda funny with all the mess happening around the galaxy, cadia falling and so forth, that the lion still just sits in his chamber waiting for the right moment to have the most dramatic entrance...

 

Imho it's a lost plot opportunity to not have the lion wake up and openly question what Rudderboat Girlyman has been doing the past years.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

This thread is about the Lion so let's keep this one nice and tidy, shall we?

[solarisqc]

I don't think the Lion can wake up by himself, the Wathcer bring him there, heal him, they are the only one that can wake up.

 

Even Luther was in a room that need the sword of secret to open. The only way Luther can have escape the Rock is if the Watcher let him leave.

 

The watcher have a plan for Luther and the Lion, they are part of the Kabal with the goal of destroying Chaos. I will not be surprise if Marbas plan to release Luther backlash. It will be great if Luther come back with the Fallen Legion at the Rock only to give alegeance to the Lion. It will be so great If the Lion wake up just in time to take command of the DA just before Azreal and the unforgiven attack the fallen in a desperate last stand.  The Fallen Legion may become masive reinforcement for the Lion, fullfilling luther premonition of the Lion pardon.

[Spinsanity]

It will be so great If the Lion wake up just in time to take command of the DA just before Azreal and the unforgiven attack the fallen in a desperate last stand. The Fallen Legion may become masive reinforcement for the Lion, fullfilling luther premonition of the Lion pardon.

While a nice story, it’s pretty much guaranteed it won’t happen that way. It would antagonize way too many DA players to see the Lion come back only to be told they can’t field him in a non-Fallen army...