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How is the Cult doing on the tabletop in 9th?


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#51
Ulfast

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I totally agree that it seems the "orignal" creeds are way better, speciallt as you also get relics, warlordstrait and psychic power with them. I would not change them but I do hope when we get a new codex, that it will change. right now I also try out Twistd helix as I also meet a lot of marine players (in diffrent flavours)  



#52
Rogue

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I'm okay with the original six being the most effective of the creeds. It makes sense to me that those six are in the Codex because they've risen to greater power and prominence.

Yes, there are many other creeds, represented by the customisation options, but they should be trading off raw power for the chance to be interesting and different.

Otherwise, you get what seems to have happened with the marines, for example, where everyone and his battle brother is a stealthy master artisan, or whatever the flavour of the month is.

If people want to play Innate/Devout, or Workers/Enforcers, or whatever, good for them. But it should be a balanced choice for more interesting story-telling or gameplay, not a way to become super-powered.
  • crownedzoidberg likes this

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Painted this year: jackal alphus, kellermorph, hypermorph, three jackals, five acolytes, ten neophytes; gravis captain

I have a very small Cult/math-hammer blog here: https://redbrotherho...ixsite.com/cult


#53
crownedzoidberg

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Totally agreeing here - prominence should resemble strength in terms of creeds.

I have played my first game of Twisted Helix and it feels amazing. We played a 1250 pts game. Having a Squad of Neophytes to advance a potential 14" in your first turn is so helpful. I also tested the clearance incinerator on the Rockgrinder - I never rolled higher than 4 hits with it. Too bad the Truck can't have a Flamer. It also feels weird to put a Squad of Aberrants into the Rockgrinder, it's just way too big of a risk. Pick-Aberrants didn't really work for me against IG Scions - the only good target for them being bullgryns which my Patriarch was designated to. 
My 4 Sawcolyte Squad killed a Tank Commander on the dot with the Primus' buffs - that felt amazing.

Funny enough, I value the Ridgerunners Stubbers higher than their Lasers. 2 of them can kill a 5 man Squad of T3 models quite easily.

I am still trying to figure out, what models to get going forward (1500 pts). I might go up on Ridgerunners, maybe having 2 squads of 2. Pick Aberrants would need so much support to put a dent into T7 (helix psychic ability, Biophagus), that I would probably not run them at all. Hammerants feel so expensive when compared to Jackals with demolition charges. Is my math correct here? 5 Jackals with Demo charges does 11,6 avg dmg against t7? Even more if I can get Drive-by Demolitions by forming an extra (mixed) detachment to get the rusted claw creed. 3 CP total in combination with Lying in Wait, getting close enough to throw grenades, hitting on 3s, wounding mostly on 3s aswell and then moving as if it was the movment phase - does that mean the can advance back into safety aswell?

I love Flamer Acolytes and I will probably increase the # of models in a squad to wound MEQ reliably.
 


Edited by crownedzoidberg, 19 October 2020 - 08:15 AM.


#54
Rogue

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I'm a fan of moving acolytes up the board, advancing anywhere from 3-8", and then getting to charge one of them on top. it's a very useful first turn threat, and even more effective if you go second, as the enemy will have likely closed the gap for you.

 

And I get what you mean about the ridgerunner - it feels like the stubbers are the work-horse weapon, with the mining laser as a bonus on top. Although in a game earlier in the week, a single ridgerunner reduced Cawl from full health to one wound in one shooting phase - the mining laser landed a hit to cause five wounds, and the stubbers got lucky and picked up two more. I almost finished him with the primus' pistol, but the save was made second time round with a CP re-roll. So close.

 

I had a lot of fun in that game with Lying in Wait. In turn two, I popped up a shotgun squad of neophytes onto the gantry that the AdMech were holding - they were able to take out all five rangers, and two of a nearby vanguard squad with the flamer. The following turn, my flamer acolytes did the same thing but on the ground floor, within 3" of an objective - they were able to remove the remaining vanguard and take control. Lying in Wait was particularly useful here because it was an end-to-end deployment, and trying to land 9" away from things made deep striking very limited. So whilst I lost the option to both shoot and charge, I was able to land close, clear out the area with firepower, and not worry about having to charge afterwards.

 

My Russ saw a run-out for the first time in a while. The battle-cannon didn't do well, repeatedly bouncing off a skorpius disintegrator (it finished the game on 12 wounds), but the hull flamer and sponson heavy bolters were great against infantry (the damage 2 bolters being useful against the multi-wound AdMech infantry/cavalry). It does mean giving up the secondary anti-tank of plasma cannons (which is partly why the skorpius was so survivable), but it gave serious support to my advancing infantry, with the tank clearing out ruins and ambushes ahead of them. 

 

It left me wondering how effective a triple heavy flamer Russ would be. In this game, I threw it a full 10" up the board in turn one - at incursion scale, that means the flamers are covering almost the width of the board, and almost into the enemy deployment zone. At which point, three flamers looks like fun - 3d6 auto-hitting S5 attacks that are unaffected by any damage degradation. The Russ became something of a bunker after that, holding the centre ground, supporting the infantry, and still double-tapping the turret gun. Plus, it's difficult to charge - three heavy flamers canbe nasty in overwatch, and can continue to fire at full effectiveness in combat. I lose the turret gun, but my opponent probably loses a lot of whatever charges in.

 

Mathing it out, flamers score an average 3.5 hits, woundingT3/4 on 3s (roughly two wounds). Heavy bolters fire three shots, hit with half (at best) for 1.5 hits, also wound on threes for 1 wound. Half the wounds of the heavy flamer, but twice the damage output. So roughly parallel, until the tank takes damage and the bolters lose accuracy, which the flamers won't. So it's very tempting. 

 

I also found that a clamavus is incredibly useful as a backfield piece. I had one, originally chosen to boost charges, but with the mission (Raid) and the secondaries really favouring the AdMech getting into my deployment zone, I ended up with him tucked into the corner of and LoS-blockig ruin, holding an objecting, and screening out a 24" bubble of deployment zone (well, a bit less, because he was off to one side, but between him and the ridgerunner holding the objecting on the other side, the whole of my deployment zone was screened out by two models. And with the acolytes and Russ pushing forward, there was nowhere to drop in within 12" of the front of the zone either. having the clamavus hold up one entire corner of the board freed up other units to do their thing, and I'd definitely try it again another time.


  • crownedzoidberg likes this

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Painted this year: jackal alphus, kellermorph, hypermorph, three jackals, five acolytes, ten neophytes; gravis captain

I have a very small Cult/math-hammer blog here: https://redbrotherho...ixsite.com/cult


#55
Ulfast

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Sounds like a fun battle and very intersting tactical things. I´m also thinking about to put less things in ambush and instead have more on the table from start. Don´t know if it´s good but could be intersting to try. 



#56
crownedzoidberg

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That's what I'm doing currently. I only have important deepstriking units in Cult Ambush (Sawcolyte Squad, Kelermorph, Support Characters) and maybe 1-2 other units depending on my opponent. If he's squishy, I put one of my 5 man Flamer-Acolytes in Deepstrike to contest an objective - if he's got a single Model with high output, i put my Mind Control - Magus into Ambush.

 

It's quite fun to build your ambush before every game and have that swiss-army knife of utility available.

Twisted Helix is so good for that board presence heavy playstile. Your early game reach improves quite alot just because of those extra 2". I tend to build my armies' weapons around that too. I have a shotgun/Flamer Neophyte Squad for early Truck assault, no Mining Lasers but 2 Grenade Launchers in each of my other Neophyte Squads.


Edited by crownedzoidberg, 26 October 2020 - 12:19 PM.


#57
Ulfast

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That sounds very good and intersting. But what would you chose for secondaries objectives with a more table focus army?



#58
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I don't think there's a simple answer to that - too much depends on the opposition and the battlefield. That said, there are some that I gravitate towards.

Assassinate and Grind Them Down can work, and the Battlefield Supremacy options are pretty good - Engage on All Fronts, Linebreaker and Domination are all doable, although Linebreaker still benefits from units dropping in from reserve, and Dominate is easier on a five objective mission.

I like Deploy Scramblers and Raise the Banners, but I also find that I want my troops to be active and fighting, so location-based objectives have a downside too. Raise the Banners is an easier pick in a Search and Hold mission.

Broadly, board control and killing things, because we want to do that anyway. Likewise, the mission-specific secondary is often good, because you usually want to be doing whatever it is to gain a mission advantage.
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Painted this year: jackal alphus, kellermorph, hypermorph, three jackals, five acolytes, ten neophytes; gravis captain

I have a very small Cult/math-hammer blog here: https://redbrotherho...ixsite.com/cult


#59
Rogue

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Got another game in last night - 1000 points vs Necrons, playing the Centre Ground mission. I was trying out a couple of things: four five-acolyte broods, all equipped with two rock saws (plus a six-flamer brood and a shotgun neophyte squad); and two Russes with triple flamers and battle cannon. Plus a ridgerunner, primus, magus.

 

He had a Lord called the Traveller, a technomancer, two large squads of warriors, some elite warriors, five wraiths, and a big blob of scarabs.

 

It was an interesting game. Turn one was a disaster for the Cult - the wraiths jumped one of the tanks, and between them and the Lord's tachyon arrow, reduced it to two wounds. Worse, the scarabs wiped out two acolyte broods (pretty much clearing my left flank), and the warriors gunned down a third brood. At the start of turn two, I was reduced to two characters, five acolytes, two tanks (one almost destroyed) and a ridgeunner on the table, and just two units in reserve. In return, I'd taken out just four bases of scarabs. I almost suggested resetting and going again.

 

But in the end, we went all the way to the end, and finished 45 to 54. With some slightly luckier rolling, I might just have stolen it.

 

So, what did I learn?

 

The five-man acolyte units have teeth, but not enough - against durable opposition like the necrons, I was killing some stuff, but leaving survivors who then cut the acolytes down (the necrons were the dynasty that specialises in close combat, which helped them out a fair bit here). When it clicks, they can be great - the one unit that survived turn one did serious damage to the wraiths, killing two and wounding a third - but I just couldn't keep them alive long enough to do what i wanted with them.

 

I think triple flamer Russes are worth trying again. One died early on, but the other survived the whole game, ending on the middle bracket. Even after being assaulted by the last two wraiths, it was able to absorb the damage, and then with some assistance from a smiting Magus, finish off the last one with flamers. Over the last two turns, it repeatedly engaged a warriors squad, slowly flaming them down and making them choose between fighting a losing battle or falling back. 

 

The flamer acolytes were useful, and combined with the neophytes to score line-breaker for three turns. They also benefited from the stratagem that allows us to restore d6 models, keeping them at full strength for two turns-worth of attacks. Next time, I plan to drop the neophytes (they're good against T3, less so against T4/5) and go with another flamer unit.

 

Giving the Magus The Cult's Psyche was helpful. That second manifest just gives options, letting me Might up one unit, and still Smite another, for example. Likewise, the Primus with Elixir and then Might (for six attacks, hitting and wounding on 2s) is handy against support characters or for finishing off damaged units.

 

Ironically, given my previous post, my secondaries were awful. I managed 30 points on the primary (15 of them in turn five), but just 15 in total across the secondaries - 12 for line-breaker, 3 for grind them down, and 0 for assassinate (although in my defence, I did cut down the warlord only for him to reanimate using a stratagem). In retrospect, While we Stand would have been a better option (and would have potentially netted me 10 for the Russ and the Magus), and then maybe Scramblers - it would have cost me troop utility, but it would have been another 10 VPs and a win.       

 

Next time out, I plan to drop the neophytes for more flamer acolytes, and combine two of the five-man saw units into a single 10-man brood - I can find enough points for  an icon too. And I'm toying with dropping the ridgerunner, possibly to bring back a Clamavus to close out the backfield, or for a Nexos in an attempt to generate a few more CPs.


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Painted this year: jackal alphus, kellermorph, hypermorph, three jackals, five acolytes, ten neophytes; gravis captain

I have a very small Cult/math-hammer blog here: https://redbrotherho...ixsite.com/cult


#60
crownedzoidberg

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An absolutely essential objective which I take every game is Deploy Scramblers. It's super easy to get if you aren't playing on the smallest board size. It's an easy 10 pts.
Engage On All Fronts - I usually get 6 pts out of it, which is okay. I put this in the same category as Linebreaker and use either/or depending on board size and my opponents' armies footprint and mobility. Domination goes here, too. 

While We Stand We Fight - hit or miss. I will never choose this vs. Marines. Nothing survives unless my opponents wants it to. You can meatshield your Patriarch (if you run him, he'll be the most expensive model) with lots of troops which are morale immune and put 1-2 expensive models in Cult Ambush, that is a big plus.

I am planning my next game: 1000 pts against a super fast and elite Night Lords list.
Normally I'd choose board control secondaries, but against mobility I have to give it a bit more thought than usual. 
If he has 2+ Psykers Abhor the Witch might arguably be better than Assassinate...

 

How did it go:

We played a new Chapter Approved 2020 Mission Pack - Mission.

The map was sectioned in quarters, leaving a 9" circle in the center. 1 objective was placed in each quarter.

 

My Secondaries: Cut off the Head, Engage on all Fronts, Deploy Scramblers

Opponent: Assassinate (duh), Engage on all Fronts, I forgot his third

 

Due to the small board size there was no easy take and hold objective that I could farm the whole game undisturbed. His screening was very good, leaving me no place to shock in his backline. I did the grave mistake of not shooting his chaos cultists with my Achilles Stubbers and wasted the shots on 2+ save Chaos Marines in Ruins...

I was very lucky killing off his warlord in Turn 2 with a calculated perfect ambush with 10 barebone acolytes and an Aura-Primus, that didn't make into combat.
I couldn't finish scramblers because my last eligible unit in his deployment zone was in melee engagement T5 - well played on his side.
Overall I played very scared because of his warp talons and Obliterators in Deep Strike. I kept my Patrarich in the backfield for the countercharge and Neophyte-Synapse, but didn't have him in 3" range for Unquestioned Loyalty - he just shot my Warlord off with his Obliterators. rolleyesclean.gif 

Due to the board state I didn't have a good place for my magus and kelermorph to come down, ending up feeding my magus the turn after it came down.
Using 1 of my Ridgerunners (which killed both obliterators with help of a smite - nice rolls!) to keep his rhino in melee combat helped me denying him Engage pts but also hindered me killing his screen. 
In the end we had a perfectly even score of 53:53

Primaries in turns: 5-5-10-15
Secondaries: 10 Cut Off The Head, 8 Engage On All Fronts, 0 Deploy Scramblers

Good game, I am still very scared of high mobility armies.


Edited by crownedzoidberg, 30 November 2020 - 10:52 AM.





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