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Crossing the Rubicon - Rip the Band Aid or Water Torture?

Primaris Special Characters First Born Space Marines Studio

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#26
Xenith

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I don't mind the gradual release. It's nice to add the fluff to them and makes it feel like more of an event when they release and adds to the growing narrative of the galaxy.

 

 

 

I don't play marines yet; 

 

I think you may have mis-read the first post!

 

 

Eh, I don't think there is too much variation in potential lore building for named characters passing the rubicon.

 

I agree, which Is why I posted this - it seems "Hero X died, then they didnt". Mephiston was a different case, but then he always was a different case. For Dante to fight and win for 1100 years, just to snuff it during indomitus to be reborn seems odd and would do the character no favours. 

 

 

Rip the bandaid and do what MegaVolt said above: GW should retire the named firstborn characters. Give them a glorious death or a mysterious disappearance and let them go into legends like champs. And then they should actually come out with NEW Lrimarisnsoecific characters and start afresh building up lore and background for this new breed of hero’s.

Porting over all the characters from the Firstborn is truly lazy writing and shows a clear lack of creativity in their narrative department.

So get rid of all the older characters completely?

 

 

I’m okay with the slow replacement. If you’ve been in 40K long enough, this is nothing too new. Look at some of the rogue trader/second edition stuff vs the 3rd edition tactical squad kit. Granted, this is unprecedented in a rules/wargear sense.

Very true - though those weren't named characters in the story.

 

I have been an advocate of ripping the band-aid off or at the minimum telling us straight.

tank ... tanks......tank

 

Part of me wonders if GW are genuine about giving firstborn stuff in the future because the lore would be a complete mess to the point of warranting major community back-lash due to a disregard for over 20 years of lore, loved stories and circumstances made by it. So is it possible...that GW are cooking stuff for firstborns or they just slow cooking firstborn? Who knows, 

 

... tanks...Tanks

 

Interesting thoughts there, on the slow cooking. And Tanks. 

 

I’m ok with the drip feed. And honestly it makes more sense from a business model perspective. Tooling and overhead and all that.

That being said, I would like a road map. Similar to what they did with ‘Munda.

Road map would be nice, I agree, though their business model seems to still be surprise. I think Necromunda got that due to fan fears that GW would stop supporting it - so it has the very opposite problem.

 

Well since i have gone back to playing 5th ed, or 30K for my 40K fix, it really isn't important to me, however like the problem with primaris lore. they should just release it all and say "boom" this is the updated marine stat line and new mini design. no lore excuse needed.

That's what I was wondering, no justtification needed. Just, here's bigger Dante. 


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#27
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I don't care either way, however if getting them all at once means having less Marine releases spaced out over the coming years so there's more room for chaos and xenos releases (okay AM would be nice to see too), then that's what I'd vote for. Though more likely is that they'd find ways to shove more Marine releases down our throats with or without converting old characters into Primaris.


Edited by Panzer, 05 August 2020 - 07:16 AM.

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#28
GreenScorpion

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They will always handle this kind of things gradually, there is a limit to the amount people will spend in one go and so it is better for them to release things every few months or weeks, with other releases in between.

That ensures that customers have enough money to spend and also adds to the feeling of buying something new (I have known people who are obsessed with always having the latest novelties in other stuff, so I guess that also happens with 40k).

It is not unexpected for them to convert all of the old characters to primaris, given that is their way of supposedly attracting customers attached to the old miniatures, but as already mentioned it feels like a cheap effort of doing something like a scale conversion with a weak fluff reason.

Still, given the amount of releases for the primaris line, I would say it is working for them financially.


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#29
Captain Idaho

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To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

Clumsy writing and the same old story. Change it as an upgrade with perhaps 10% chance of death, so it's more of a personal choice the characters grapple with.

Personally I say just create new and interesting characters. If you can't, well then that's a damning indictment of writing quality.

We all KNOW the Primaris range is a replacement of Classic Marines eventually, but I think it needs to be a gradual thing simply because of economics. However, it would be nice to get it over with as I'd like other armies to actually get new stuff.

Edited by Captain Idaho, 05 August 2020 - 10:16 AM.

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#30
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I’d prefer a mix of killing off a couple a of characters and Primarising others. I don’t want them all killed off because honestly, how many times would we have to read those character died heroically doing blah blah blah?

Neither do I want to read 20 variations of what happened to Ragnar.

Pick two or three to die heroically, 2 or so to cross over after injury then just move the rest over without fanfare.

I’d also rather they did it all quickly. Just get it done.

The alternative would be to try and please both camps. Give the old characters new and upscaled models, then give them a new keyword of ‘commander’ or something that lets them ride in any transport so they can travel with and support Primaris or firstborn. Make a free strat that lets you give any of them the Primaris keyword (But doesn’t change their stats) if you want them to have that for any reason.

That way you’ve got a character who is a new model and can be Primaris or old marine until the time comes when they properly squat all old marines.

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#31
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To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

Clumsy writing and the same old story. Change it as an upgrade with perhaps 10% chance of death, so it's more of a personal choice the characters grapple with.

Personally I say just create new and interesting characters. If you can't, well then that's a damning indictment of writing quality.

We all KNOW the Primaris range is a replacement of Classic Marines eventually, but I think it needs to be a gradual thing simply because of economics. However, it would be nice to get it over with as I'd like other armies to actually get new stuff.

To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.



#32
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There are many heroes - we don’t know them all, just the ones GW tells us about... so it’s feasible all the named ones we know could survive the crossing.


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#33
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To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

 

 

You have any evidence of this?



#34
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Personally I'd like to see some new characters, it doesn't really bother me that no named characters have died trying to cross the Rubicon (and I don't think they should if GW puts a character into legends they should have fitting end).

That said at some point I do expect them to rescale TDA, termies are just so iconic that it wouldn't make sense to get rid of them. When they do that I'd like to see a lot of the firstborn characters in the new scale.

Edited by Jorin Helm-splitter, 05 August 2020 - 06:05 PM.


#35
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To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

You have any evidence of this?

The Psychic Awakening books mention it iirc, as well as the new codex supplements.



#36
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The rubicon was added to try and create some tension which GW handled with as much care, attention and ability as a quadruple amputee in an earthquake simulator. Calgar went across, didn't die but then faced Abaddon in a hyped up match that peter molyneux would of been proud of that ended up like said persons projects everytime: a roaring disappointment as the fight gets barely a 6 line paragraph half column style of "Calgar ran away, Abaddon chased" followed by "Calgar tripped like a complete scrub and got wrecked but sike not really, despite having an ultra fatal wound even for a marine Cawls magic organ of plot armour did its thing and CAlgar operated without his hearts".

 

Then Shrike and Korsarro crossed it, Kayvaan just sneaked over without anyone expecting it and Korsarro crossed it to roaring shock as he yet again appears without a bike.

 

When it comes to lore, GW has a gulf so wide in quality you could likely fit every dead imperial guard in it and still have space for dead of the tyranids too. Some of it really resonates, works and hits the mark while others are so off key, blatant faction pandering or outright rubbish. Sadly, GW tends to prefer those that make the latter over the former because the former uses actual writing techniques and among them is giving your characters (both heroes and villains) qualities and flaws the reflect them. Is Calgar a good character? Despite his appearances, yes. He has had many victories but also many defeats that stung. Similar with the Ultramarines who a core part of their identity is having lost their 1st company to the tyranids on first encounter.

Those are the moments that characters (be them Chapters of marines or singular great heroes) need, they need their triumphs and their defeats. Abaddon is good because he got a MAJOR triumph that led to a form of defeat, after cadia fell, ironically so too did his forces and lost most of his momentum as the one thing that united his crusade was gone. He now struggles to gain ground and thus is cursed by his success.

 

Meanwhile however, Cawl does nothing wrong, made perfect new marines who were better than the Emperors (at the behest of not the Emperor but his son) and his son is the centre of the biggest Deus Ex Machina I would think possible with no penalty (and it literally was a God from a Machine really). Ultramarines paid no price for the return of Gulliman who has now been the most impactful imperial character since the Emperor to affect lore proper while two Daemon Primarchs barely got footnote mentions of their successes!

 

This does come around from GW being a model company, not a story company. Sadly they want to push new models and it is depressing that they think it is "models or lore" when it really is about both. Good lore informs about new models and new models can inform about lore and both can play off one another when handled well. Not like they don't have writers with the talent for it, just they need to improve their relations between their rule writers, model makers and lore writers beyond what they have now because they don't talk to one another enough and if they do they don't ether get enough time or the correct freedoms to make things good.

 

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#37
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To me, if you want to try and use background to justify why every new character becomes a Primaris, you'll need to change the background. High odds of death yet every one of them survives, it regrows your limbs and brings you back from near death meaning Dreadnoughts aren't a thing etc.

 

What is strange to me is how GW has left the door open to doubt.  Why even have that bit about likely to die if Calgar is going to lecture the reader on becoming Primaris in the SMC?  Why have Seth muse about how Primaris are a replacement for Blood Angels if they retcon the Black Rage into Primaris?  Why even focus on Dante being Lord Commander of Imperium Nihilus if he is one of the few non-Primaris characters?  So many strange decisions around the Primaris thing. 

 

I resent that by making them Primaris, those characters are effectively stolen from Firstborn players.  Everything else?  Garbage.  But, we're taking your named characters.

 

 

But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 


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#38
Robbienw

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To be fair, the EARLY Rubicon Primaris was the one fraught with danger. That was Calgar's.

 

Iirc, it's stated they've refined the process enough so that it's as you say. Has a chance of death instead of a high likelihood of it.

You have any evidence of this?

The Psychic Awakening books mention it iirc, as well as the new codex supplements.

 

 

Can you tell me where exactly?  I've only read Engine War and Ritual of the Damned (don't recall anything in them) from the Psychic Awakening.  Similarly with the supplements I've only properly read the White Scars and Ultramarines, and there was nothing new on the rubicon in them either as i recall, other than old characters who had undergone it.


Edited by Robbienw, 05 August 2020 - 03:03 PM.


#39
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Apparently the Khan is still waiting for his bike to cross over as well .

Also they can alway dig up Tycho and try to float his corpse across that river.

Edited by Black Blow Fly, 05 August 2020 - 04:04 PM.

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#40
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What will be really interesting to see if if so many of the Ultramarine 5th edition characters like Cronus and Tellion will make it to Primaris.

 

 

Also they can alway dig up Tycho and try to float his corpse across that river.

 

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#41
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Lexicanum cites Vigilus Defiant page 77, where Cawl says that "the data he had amassed suggested there would be a 61.6% failure rate until the process could be perfected". I'm not sure if any later books say outright that the process has been perfected, but it seems plausible that it's been refine since literally the first time it was ever tried.

 

Personally, at this point I think of the Rubicon Primaris as being "dangerous" in the same way that warp travel is: it's dangerous enough that it can be used as a plot point, but not so dangerous that we should be surprised when our favorite characters make it to their destination intact.


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#42
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I’d prefer they all get primaris’d because I dig the look/proportions of them by far compared to oldmarines. However, new sculpts up to modern standards would be almost as good.

I’m also a proponent of just releasing them all at once. It’s all kinda a gimmick at this point, just release the models.
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#43
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There's a split down the middle that could satisfy everyone but GW.  Provide pre and post Rubicon versions, even if pre Rubicon is in Legends.


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#44
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At the risk of repeating myself,

 

I'd have preferred if there's no such thing as primaris and they simply went, "These are your new edition Space Marine Models, and these are your new edition Space Marine rules."

 

It's a bit awkward when EVERY named hero who defended the Imperium for millenia suddenly gets into a near death experience right after each other and lo, the only way to save them is to get the Primaris upgrade.

 

If I was a named captain in 40K, I'd bee looking over my shoulder - more often than usual. At this point they might be pretty spooked. Well, as far as Astartes get spooked.

 

Maybe that arch-heretek Cawl is organising these events? Arrange for a hero to get into a deadly encounter, oh no, what tragedy! Quickly, implant him with the new stuff! What's this? The next chapter is heading into a warzone? It'd be such a shame if their target data altered ever so slightly and led the command squad into an enemy killzone with no reinforcements!


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#45
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All they really need to do is take a suitably famous marine character without a model and make him into a cool character dreadnaught kit. Have the lore say he tried to cross the rubicon and ultimately failed, but enough of him could be somewhat saved and interred into a sarcophagus. Destroys the rickety precedent of all named characters successfully crossing, and, if you did it to a character like Grimnar, you erase one of the worst model remiganings ever.
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#46
Captain Idaho

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I've been thinking the main thing we as fans need is resolution. Let's get this all over with.

I worry the bad will isn't just coming from jaded Marines fans but seeping into the player base of other factions, as players see their favourite factions marginalised whilst Primaris Marines take so much of the resources of GW regarding new releases and refreshes etc.

Aeldari players must be upset that their Aspect Warriors are now less effective at being specialised than Primaris, yet are easier to kill with older sculpts.
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#47
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I'm of the opinion that they will continue to drip feed it.

It makes natural sense with The Horus Heresy and The Old World for them to expand further into their historical gaming settings. Any historic setting will not share any existing characters, barring Chaos and some outliers like Bjorn. However, they will need time to set this up, and will continue the classic line in 40k proper until they have time to boot up a new system like that. They will not want to mothball production only to have to bring it back up later, like they may decide to do with any fantasy kits when going to The Old World.

Personally, I would like them to get some of it over with. I don't really like the slow drip, even if it is the natural or proper decision for GW to make.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 05 August 2020 - 08:19 PM.

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#48
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But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

 

 

Wasn't Tycho dead by the "present" of 40K anyway?


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#49
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#50
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But, they killed off Tycho, who was an iconic Blood Angels character for years.  So, i guess anything is possible. 

 

 

Wasn't Tycho dead by the "present" of 40K anyway?

 

 

Tycho died in his first appearance in a White Dwarf Battle Report, iirc. He was only made a special character available to the general playing public after that. Later on they wrote him falling to the Black Rage and then officially dying on Armageddon.


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