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Weapon Rebalancing


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#26
Dark Shepherd

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Tigurius: damm, thought they could. They definitely need to change that, and not just so I can save face 😆
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#27
Triszin

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are all melta variants getting altered?


banana

#28
TiguriusX

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are all melta variants getting altered?


Nobody knows

This is speculation based on a leaked data sheet for the ATV showing multi melta with 2 shots and a new melta rule

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#29
Karhedron

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are all melta variants getting altered?


Unknown at this point but I suspect not. Melta guns got a points drop in the new Field Manual while MMs didn't. This makes me think they decided to discount the smaller melta weapons and buff the big brother. The new melta rifles on the Eradicators have the old style melta rule. Maybe they could change it in the new codex but why print one set of rules only to change them 3 months later? Just speculation on my part of course, we will have to wait until October to find out for sure.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#30
One Two Wolf

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If the melta rule does extend to all MM then LF become a broken unit. Rather than math it I rolled about 30 times last night as follows:

5xLF w MM
PL w MG
TDAPL w MG & CML

Reroll 1's native (on one target), 1 CP no hit mods, 1 CP reroll all wounds, in melta range.

Vs LR or repulsor, dead every time, often 30+ wounds. CML never used, MG's never used.

Vs 2x LR or repulsor (gave up after five or six rolls against 1) both dead 18 out of 22 times, didn't bother with explodes.

Vs leviathan, well, if 4 unsaved wounds go through that's a minimum 12 damage before rolling, in melta range, enough said.

A T8 chassis with 4++ with a 5+++ and lots of wounds will possibly survive the MM's, but likely not the rest as well. Just base unit cost w 5x MM is less than 200 points...

Its. Nuts. Can someone math hammer this properly (I did change dice, roll with left hand and got my fiancee to do some too, tried to keep it as random as I could).

Edited by One Two Wolf, 05 August 2020 - 08:13 PM.

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#31
Karhedron

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Lets assume 5 MMs in a drop and you spend 2CPs on T1 so Devastator doctrine is active.

That will average 37 wounds against T7 targets with no Invuln or 31 wounds against a T8 target. So 15-16 wounds on a Knight with a 4++. If you want to instagib 2 Repulsors or Russes (or that Knight) then you will need some extra firepower on the LFPL and WGPL but that is still an almost insane amount of firepower.

Chuck in a Priest with Bike or JP and Recitation of Focus for even more hitting power. The problem at this level becomes that it is quite simply overkill unless you are facing Knights or multiple tanks.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#32
Valerian

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Just think about what that would do to a 550 point Paladin blob, though; especially if you got first turn, and could alpha strike before they got all of their defensive buffs up and running.
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#33
Arentius

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Longfangs in drop pod + storm wolf carrying wulfen = 18 Multi melta shots at half range turn 1, wulfen can come out to play turn 2.

 

Everything is going to get slagged and I for one am happy I live in a vehicle heavy meta area....well for now



#34
Karhedron

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I have been running infantry heavy lists for much of 8th. Despite the buffs to vehicles, the buffs to AT firepower make me think that infantry-heavy is still the way to go.


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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#35
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Yeah I've had more success with infantry heavy lists so far this edition but I think it's easy to over speculate with GW. I could see the second shot for multi melta only applying to vehicles for example.

#36
Karhedron

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Well it applies to bikes too (which is what the ATV counts as. I can't really think of another weapon that changes stats depending on the unit carrying it.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#37
Jorin Helm-splitter

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That's a good point I have to admit that in my head I keep thinking the new ATV is a vehicle even though we've seen data sheets.

I just like the ideal of the increased cost of weapons for vehicles being tied to some sort of boost. In addition it just seems weird for them to hype vehicles so much then boost melta.

#38
Karhedron

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Well you know how consistent GW is... msn-wink.gif

I am starting to warm to the ATV. Price looks to be 60 points naked which is the price of 4 Tactical Marines but you get 8 T5 wounds rather than 4 T4 wounds, a much faster move and a unit that can move and fire its heavy weapon with no penalty. Those babies are priced to shift!

Mind you, the humble attack bike is only 30 points and gets access to the MM too. I can see some fierce competition for our FA slots.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#39
Dark Shepherd

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A lot of competition

Would say though Our ATVs have better BS than blood claw bikes/attack bikes and dont have Headstrong

Wolf Scout Bikes are strong rules wise, only 25 points too I think
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#40
Karhedron

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Yes, our ABs are hampered by BS4+ making ATVs a more obvious choice for us I think.
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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#41
Valerian

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Yes, our ABs are hampered by BS4+ making ATVs a more obvious choice for us I think.


By a mile.

#42
Rune Priest Jbickb

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I just like the ideal of the increased cost of weapons for vehicles being tied to some sort of boost.


I mean they do move and shoot without penalty which is why the increased cost...
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#43
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Yeah but moving and shooting without penalty and being able to fire at units they're engaged with were supposed to be the big buffs for vehicles. If your paying extra for that ability it's pretty lackluster.

#44
Rune Priest Jbickb

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Yeah but moving and shooting without penalty and being able to fire at units they're engaged with were supposed to be the big buffs for vehicles. If your paying extra for that ability it's pretty lackluster.


Well a large portion of gear and unit went up in 9th across the board so I really see it as paying extra just the new cost of units. I'm trying to say it's the difference in price between infantry heavies and vehicle heavies. I think its reasonable to expect a cost difference when one system is more accurate than another. Another example would be Astra Militarim heavy weapons being cheaper than marine ones across the board.
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#45
Gherrick

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There are better ways to balance points than trying to have the same weapons have different points based on the unit. I think GW made the right call keeping weapon points completely independent, and just adjusting unit pricing to arrive at the total. Lowers the overall maintenance cost.



#46
Karhedron

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Well a large portion of gear and unit went up in 9th across the board so I really see it as paying extra just the new cost of units. I'm trying to say it's the difference in price between infantry heavies and vehicle heavies. I think its reasonable to expect a cost difference when one system is more accurate than another. Another example would be Astra Militarim heavy weapons being cheaper than marine ones across the board.


True but if vehicles went up in points by above the average 15%-ish then you could argue they are being double-charged for the buff. Not sure if that is actually the case, Dreadnoughts for example seem to have got away lightly with only minor price increases.
Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#47
Rune Priest Jbickb

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Well a large portion of gear and unit went up in 9th across the board so I really see it as paying extra just the new cost of units. I'm trying to say it's the difference in price between infantry heavies and vehicle heavies. I think its reasonable to expect a cost difference when one system is more accurate than another. Another example would be Astra Militarim heavy weapons being cheaper than marine ones across the board.

True but if vehicles went up in points by above the average 15%-ish then you could argue they are being double-charged for the buff. Not sure if that is actually the case, Dreadnoughts for example seem to have got away lightly with only minor price increases.

Its actually because vehicles didnt get a universal percentage hike that I dont believe we are getting "charged" for the buff. I think GW actually looked at each vehicle's effectiveness individually and raised/adjusted accordingly.
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#48
Gherrick

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IMO, vehicles are still a bit too easily destroyed for my liking. With the melta buff, it will be even harder to keep most vehicles on the table (or not mostly-wrecked) for more than a turn or two. I had a unit of eradicators take a land raider from full health down to 4, and being round 2, it didn't even get a save.


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#49
Wolfpriest Arik Bloodmaw

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Fellow wolves, thoughts on Frost Weapons, as Power Weapons have been upgraded. Maybe gain the Helfrost ability scoring Mortals wounds on rolls of 6?

#50
Fang_Guard23

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Fellow wolves, thoughts on Frost Weapons, as Power Weapons have been upgraded. Maybe gain the Helfrost ability scoring Mortals wounds on rolls of 6?

I think the rules for frost would be that on an unmodified wound roll of a 6 scores a mortal wound along with  regular damage, in addition the effected unit can only move D6"






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