68 replies to this topic

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Yea, well we will see if this works or not, but as you say (and really it's the point of the thread) I am trying to experiment. The trick is pushing that theory but still retaining a functional list of units you trust. 

 

I think units getting 'picked off' is more just something that happens by T2-T3 if I'm not super careful. We'll see if doubling up on my Helbrute experiment is worth it.

How has 2w marines and 3w terminators changed your list scheming for 9th?  I've been messing around with battlescribe using 1750 points as a ballpark figure for about what 2k points of chaos marines will cost when chaos gets a codex.  

 

Few things about chaos marines I expect will change when the codex arrives.  

 

1. the DA will get better.  Currently he is a real cheap knockoff of the chaplain.  Not a single dark prayer is better than any astardes litany.  

 

2.  Legion traits that aren't stone cold garbage.  Black Legion being one of the worst I expect them to get much better.

 

3.  Blobs will likely go away.  I can't really see 20 man blobs of fairly elite units not being phased out.  How can you give them good stratagems if they can be hyper efficient with 20 man units and not break the game?  I would be very surprised in chaos marines could still blob zerkers, plague marines, noise marines and so on up to 20 in the new codex.

 

So what changes are you trying to gameplan for when list scheming?

[Relic]

I have not really considered the extra wound as it won't come until the new codex which could be months or next year so still a bit off and points will change.

The weapon changes are in October so something more immediate. I have a game today and have decided to give chosen with combi melta and chainswords riding in some rhinos a try.

[MegaVolt87]

Black Legion- 2k points

Abaddon 220

Termi sorc 108
combi bolter, force weapon
MoN
Miasma
Warptime
Trophies of Slaughter

10 cultists (MoN) 60
5 CSM bolters, x1 combi plasma champ, x1 plasma gun (MoS) 90
5 CSM bolters, x1 combi plasma champ, x1 ML (MoN) 95
5 CSM, x3 with BP + chainsword, meltagun, champ PF + plasma pistol (MoK) 95

5 beserkers, 4 chain axes + 4 chainswords, champ power fist+CS 99
8 terminators (MoN) 253
x4 chain axe and x4 combi plasma
x3 chain axe and x3 combi bolter
x1 champ chainfist and combi bolter
Hellbrute, multi melta, hellbrute fist, combi bolter 118

x3 oblitorators (MoS) 315
Havocs (MoS)
x2 lascannon, x1 autocannon, x1 ML 140

Rhino, combi bolter 78
Rhino, combi bolter 78

Helldrake with baleflamer 150
x4 CSM bikers, chainaxe champ, chainswords (MoS) 101

Army Total 2000

I would run this list instead with the hell turkey Prot. Your inital list I think lacked teeth IMO. Also I cut iut what I thought was dead weight, I think CSM in general need to be more focoused and selective with our buffs, less greedy etc. Anyways tell me what you BL mains think.

[Relic]

As way of short update I played that game tonight. Went MSU style vs Space Marines.

Ran a Lord, punchy exalted champion (remember this guy..still quite good!) and sorcerer for the warp time and prescience.

3x5 khorne berzerkers - fist in one squad.2x5 melta chosen.10 combi bolter/chainaxe terminators.

3x5 CSM squads. 2x5 chainhavoc squads.

Five Rhino's with havoc launchers for style points. SM was a nice mix of primaris units, he did not spam more then one squad of outriders, aggressors and eliminators so that was nice of him but SM is a tough game in general.

In a nutshell I won the game on points via the ability to stick boots on multiple objectives, enough close combat to push opponent objectives/midfield whilst my army traded my units for his in a manner of attrition that I would get near enough tabled but ultimately win the mission. No point in trying to out efficient a marine army I figure.

I like my obliterators but the chosen squads in rhinos was a kinda cool experiment on the more condensed tables as opponent has to come into the midfield. The chosen can jump out of a rhino, advance, warp time and still shoot (prescience them to remove the -1).

You'd want backup anti tank like close combat units but I see some value in trading units like berzerkers and melta chosen who ultimately die but hopefully do something beforehand or present a threat sitting in a rhino mid board.

Listened to a podcast earlier where they briefly discussed black legion and the power of the world killer strat in 9th as you can use it to steal objectives for a turn.

[Snazzy]

You've basically described my experience in all of 9th so far.  It works, as far as winning.  Taking 1st in a tournament is going to be harder, because focusing on CSMs reduces your overall aggressive capacity.  I usually win on Primaries, with a few Secondaries based on the composition of the enemy's army.  I don't bother with table quarters or deployment zones.  It's a fight in the middle, bring knives.

 

 

 

Listened to a podcast earlier where they briefly discussed black legion and the power of the world killer strat in 9th as you can use it to steal objectives for a turn.

 

Not just steal them, change the entire bent of the game.  With World Killers active and an ObSec unit by the objective you will also strip Banners off the objective at the start of the Command Phase, denying the points, as well as deny putting it back on during the opponent's Movement Phase.  It is especially powerful on the opponent's last turn because it also denies them the post game points for Banners.

[Prot]

Just to continue the thread with an actual Batrep: http://www.bolterand...pics/?p=5589052

[Relic]

Looks like your random list worked! 🙂

On the DA, I get the odd notion of including him as the 5++ aura is appealing, I think for the likes of rhino's that really makes them durable for their cost. But eh he has to walk+advance and will still slow you down for the aura.

[Prot]

Looks like your random list worked!

On the DA, I get the odd notion of including him as the 5++ aura is appealing, I think for the likes of rhino's that really makes them durable for their cost. But eh he has to walk+advance and will still slow you down for the aura.

 

Thanks, it was just one game, but a tough match up with such a vehicle heavy list. So far the bare bones of the list have been working 'okay' for me (I don't know if I'd call it very competitive).

 

As far as the walk+advance, that's pretty much bang on. I do think though in my case since it is worded as 'models within 6"' that I have to be realistic about how many things I can slot next to him.

 

Since we don't know in 9th who goes first, I usually start him within range of a few cultists, a few marines, and in this case, a few Helbrutes. This is why I think a sprinkle of Daemon Engines (5++) is so important. Basically if I don't go first, it means my opponent is looking at a bunch of 5+ invuln vehicles. Good call on the rhino. I may have to at least try to get it in the starting aura. In this case I hid it behind obscurring ruins but he did have 2 basilisks that could have ruined it had he won first turn.

 

The list might just stay the same. It seems hard to tweak without completely changing the mechanics of the list. 

 

I do think about getting my Venomcrawlers back in the game, but they are just seemingly miles away from a Defiler right now. Same goes for Maulerfiends (and no shooting yet, with -2 wounds).

 

I am considering going into a Forgefiend with Hades in the backline, in exchange for Havocs sharing a Rhino with Zerkers. That is an uncomfortable pairing, and I can't fit a second Rhino in. Perhaps one day I'll try the Forgefiend... it does seem reasonable for the points, but that BS of 4...

 

Anyway, very minor tweaks:

- Havocs out.

- Venomcrawler in (Just love the model and I painted 2). MIght be a nice carnifex to go with the Defiler... has a bit of mediocre shooting.

- The 5 missile toting CSM troops turn into: 2 Melta's, and 3 CC marines to act as a discount Chosen squad sharing the Zerker Rhino.

[Relic]

I can understand those switches although I don't really use daemon engine's. A lot of people seem to be high on them right now.

Personally I like to keep the troops bare bones because they end up advancing to get on objectives or doing actions like raising banners. My troops don't do much else but score and die. I guess that is an important part of list design now, you want to be thinking which secondaries your army plays to and what it gives away in return. For example in the list where I am using 5 rhino's I am essentially giving my opponent an easy 10pts for bring it down, and also attrition, but in return it makes the likes of linebreaker and raise the banners fairly achievable on my end.

The 6' DA aura for a 5++ is not as bad for vehicles as I think you only need a part of the model within the aura so big models are an easier fit? I can see a DA running up the middle on more condensed 9th tables giving out an aura of 5++ as something that could be a thing. Everytime I consider it though I think to myself, I have 3 HQ slots. A Lord is in for re-roll bubble, so other two choices are open.

I like the exalted champion currently as close combat seems to be more of a thing in 9th as the fighting happens mid-board and he is cheap enough. Sorcerer for warp time is clutch.

DA is an easy switch for either one and maybe something I should just try out to see if the extra durability pays off. The sorcerer I find the best utility unit in the army, but with the smaller boards and change to command re-rolls I am finding it hard to get powers off consistently. On the other hand...what is CSM without warp time?! The ability to double move a unit is great. Prescience is cool as well, but man warptime is to the one I want going off every time and the reason I take a sorcerer.

Edited by Relic, 21 August 2020 - 07:19 PM.

[Snazzy]

I down the DA, but i'm increasingly seeing the value.  In any other Legion (besides Word Bearers) i would skip it.  For us, things are complicated by Council of Traitors and our Legion specific Warlord traits.  Veteran Raider syncs well with the DA's need to stay close to enemy units, but you could just as easily use something like Trusted War-Leader, or First Among Traitors if you aren't taking Abaddon.

 

Its the Exalted Champ that has a hard time making the cut.

[BrainFireBob]

Yes.

Take Abby, a DA, a Sorc, Council of Traitors and one Relic of the Legion, and from a certain POV have 3 Warlords for "free".

Edit: It's why I'm thinking a Terrax. Put the DA in it, take the Black Mace, and if he makes turn 3 actually use the "Combat Beast" prayer. Never really thought 8t worthwhile to stab at before

Edited by BrainFireBob, 22 August 2020 - 05:00 AM.

[Relic]

Council of traitors indeed adds some appeal to having a trio of Lord, sorcerer and DA! Funny that marines get that as a one CP job where CSM have to jump through so many hoops to get extra warlord traits!

I think I'd stick to the DA as a straight up buff character as he doesn't combo well with sitting in a transport and is too slow to make CC on foot. Any one of +1 to hit, -1 to hit or 5++ are good buffs. The cost is the issue and taking a slot. A rules question off top of my head, can his disciples perform mission actions like raise the banners? If they can, that might be interesting as a secondary use as they can't usually be targeted.

On the exalted champion - yeah I think prevailing wisdom is probably that he does not make the cut in non World Eater lists but I personally like his re-rolls wounds aura for close combat as it turns the likes of close combat units like berzerkers into blenders and adds some punch to more duel purpose units like terminators and chosen. He is fairly cheap and cheerful, I'd argue he is on par with the DA for that reason and a notch below the sorcerer who I think is one of the few top tier units CSM have.

[Prot]

Really good points guys. 

 

Since 9th started it might be the most contentious spot to fill in our armies. We go from being a very HQ heavy faction to cherry picking our favourites.

 

So far this particular list is seeing the benefit of the 5++ DA aura. However I definitely would be inclined to remove it for the Exalted Champ (I wish he was an Elite) for my Possessed list, or even the multi Zerker style of list.

 

*IF* we get reasonable costs on marines with chainswords, we may find the old school Rhino rush of 3rd edition could see a return with the Exalted. For now though this list is doing okay. I don't think I'll mess with the HQ's yet until I get a few more games in. 

[Relic]

Another interesting point is that with only one sorcerer in most lists - how do you pick your two psychic powers?

Warp time is an auto pick for me as double move is so powerful.

Then it comes down to one of prescience or delightful agonies. The latter is a bit easier to cast but in an ideal world I think you want both right? Hard choice between increasing durability of a key unit or their damage potential.

[Snazzy]

I think I'd stick to the DA as a straight up buff character as he doesn't combo well with sitting in a transport and is too slow to make CC on foot. Any one of +1 to hit, -1 to hit or 5++ are good buffs. The cost is the issue and taking a slot. A rules question off top of my head, can his disciples perform mission actions like raise the banners? If they can, that might be interesting as a secondary use as they can't usually be targeted.

 

Yes.  They are infantry, and not characters.

 

 

So far this particular list is seeing the benefit of the 5++ DA aura. However I definitely would be inclined to remove it for the Exalted Champ (I wish he was an Elite) for my Possessed list, or even the multi Zerker style of list.

 

If you want to get weird, a Noctolith Crown in your deployment zone provides a 5++ without the need for a DA.

 

Another interesting point is that with only one sorcerer in most lists - how do you pick your two psychic powers?

Warp time is an auto pick for me as double move is so powerful.

Then it comes down to one of prescience or delightful agonies. The latter is a bit easier to cast but in an ideal world I think you want both right? Hard choice between increasing durability of a key unit or their damage potential.

 

Warptime and Death Hex.  Personally, i think we have enough redundant rerolls to not be dependent on Prescience, as amazing as that happens to be.  I don't opt for Delightful Agonies because I depend on my Sorc being Tzeentch to get that 3rd power each turn via The Great Sorcerer.

[Relic]

Played a few more games with the 5 rhino, MSU list of melta chosen, berzerkers, CSM and havocs with a side of 10 chainaxe terminators. Having a lot of fun with it to be honest and winning more then it is losing which is a plus. It has handled a few Marine armies which is cool. Going against a competitive SM army next week so the luck could run out soon.

The melta chosen experiment is ongoing. The smaller boards and their mobility is not bad. Essentially they jump out of a transport, if opponent is -1 to hit for any reason you may as well advance them as no additional penalty. The issue with melta of course is outside of 6' range it tends to be swingy as you need to hit, wound and then roll the damage. Still their direct comparison units would be lascannon havocs or expensive obliterators who also suffer the same issues.

Chain havocs are doing what they do. Not much to say on them outside of more condensed boards is fine for them like a lot of CSM units.

The regular CSM are meh. Objective takers/actions and not much else. You have to take some sort of troop and they fit in a rhino.They do a job.

Berzerkers are a trading squad. They jump out and something dies, then they get shot off the board if the opponent wants to have a midfield. The one champion with powerfist always puts in a lot of work.

A rhino with combi bolter and havoc launcher does what it says on the tin.

Chainaxe terminators are a solid 7/10 unit most games. Won't set the world on fire, but solid unit for their points. They do a bit of shooting and combat, don't die to a stiff breeze.

The chaos Lord is a re-roll aura mechanic for me, I tend to use my characters as support rather then blenders. The exalted champion I am always tempted to drop, but every game he does the dark gods work for me as he turns the berzerkers up to nine and makes the "okay" close combat units like terminators and the chosen with their melta/chainswords punchy. True to the fluff I guess he is earning his spot.

The sorcerer is..well everyone knows they are great for CSM. That said as a small experiment to satisfy my curiosity and also because I like the model, I am going to try out the Dark Apostle and disciples as a straight swap. 5++ aura prayer to make the rhinos stick around longer. Might help when going bottom of the turn as that is the games where I have lost.

Also he can do the prayer of re-rolls in combat aura if someone does want a fight in the middle. It sounds very world eater'ish to have the exalted champion and DA.

Edited by Relic, 27 August 2020 - 06:47 PM.

[Snazzy]

The BRB change to limit Smite to one cast per character has rendered Eye of Tzeentch all but useless.  Back to the drawing board on Mortal Wound generation.

[Brom MKIV]

Long night at work so maybe I'm misremembering but last I checked smite can be spammed by the same caster now..? Was there a recent FAQ I missed?

[Snazzy]

Yeah, BRB update:

 

Page 215 – Manifesting Psychic Powers, first paragraph Add the following sentence: ‘The same Psyker unit cannot attempt to manifest Smite more than once during the same battle round.