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All Firstborn (AND CHAOS) get additional wounds!


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#701
Karhedron

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It’s a massively golly gee for Primaris Marines however. They were supposed to be extra specialized but getting better stat boosts. Intercessors being 2W made them great meatshields with solid damage over time if not dealt with.

Now tbh, I see very little reason to field Intercessors at all. Tac Squads with buffed heavies/specials are just far sexier. For 1 extra attack and 1 extra AP (if boltguns move to 30” from the command squad box), really no point.

 

I think there is still a role for both. Tacticals with heavy holding backfield objectives (and possibly befitting from the 30" range on boltguns if that range goes beyond the command squad). Now Intercessors are great for moving up to take midfield Objectives, particularly with Auto Boltguns and a tasty melee weapon on the Serg. That way they can leverage their better mobile firepower and improved melee stats.

 

On a similar note, I think Devastators have retaken their role as premiere fire-support unit. I see the best use for Eliminators as being with sniper rifles now rather than las-fusils. Leave dedicated tank-busting to the Firstborn.


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#702
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We can appreciate the state of xenos codices and commiserate, but that’s a topic for another thread. We’re mostly good in that regard, but it keeps popping up every few pages.

Edited by Juggernut, 14 August 2020 - 10:03 AM.

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#703
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Veteran Intercessors have a datasheet?

based on the contents of the new codex, yeah. It might just be that they simply cost points, are an elite slot but otherwise just intercessors with +1 A and +1 Ld, or it could be they have more options (able to mix and match options from the different intercessor squads perhaps?)


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Primaris Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2

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Heresy Blood Angels: Wins 4 Draws 0 Losses 2
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#704
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Since previously veteran intercessors had a strat and now they have a datasheet, and usually you don't have datasheets without models.

If you look to the shown codex cover you have an ultramarine with a tattered loincloth. If you look at the BT artwork in the rule book same tattered loincloth appears.

Coinincidence? I think not.

Or maybe im just way deep into the rabbit hole.


Edited by Sete, 14 August 2020 - 10:45 AM.

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#705
Captain_Krash

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Super glad this 100% confirms smol marines are not getting squatted. 

 

GW is repackaging them as well! 

 

Krash


Edited by Captain_Krash, 14 August 2020 - 10:48 AM.

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#706
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Fluff wise, the extra wound is great. Game wise, the same. But, I wonder what it signals for the first-born model line, and GWs intention going forward.
Real talk: we all know that first born models have an upcoming expiry date. It's a matter of when, not if. Primaris are the intended replacement. It's obvious, it's all but acknowledged, even if it is just whispered in the dark places of the souls of some of us.

What these new changes make me wonder, is this: Is this the last hurrah before they get phased out in 10th edition? I suspect so.

Personally, despite these rules changes, and with the exception of the new CSM line, I still wouldn't buy non-primaris if you're wanting an army to play with for beyond next 3 years. That's quite a while for some, and not many games (in the broader sense) have a longer guarantee of being supported that long, but call me greedy I guess.

But- this is a nice change for people with pre-existing collections.


I suspect this move is in order to give their datasheets rough parity with Primaris, so that all those people with full Firstborn armies will still have reasonably compatible set of rules to play with when they are inevitably packed off to Legends.
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#707
Bryan Blaire

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Yes, a scale change without changing much in the way of rules except to get better is something to fear, dread, and loathe.

It's not like it hasn't happened before in the history of 40K or anything.

Just proves some folk are happier unhappy and fearful. I guess that's a pretty good 40K method of thinking, but I don't think you're actually intended to take up the in-game mentality.

This is a good thing.
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#708
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Yes, a scale change without changing much in the way of rules except to get better is something to fear, dread, and loathe.

It's not like it hasn't happened before in the history of 40K or anything.

Just proves some folk are happier unhappy and fearful. I guess that's a pretty good 40K method of thinking, but I don't think you're actually intended to take up the in-game mentality.

This is a good thing.


Far too many people LARP the setting...

Put the toys on the table and throw the dice. Everything else is just noise.

 

...Unless you're just in this for the modeling. In which case, show your work. Yours likely looks better than mine, anyway.


#709
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If they do release upscaled versions of the old models, it’s just going to be “Primaris, but wearing parts of old armor mk’s”. They may even add special and heavy weapons to intercessor squads, but it still won’t be Old Marines. Because Old Marines isn’t about the fluff, Old Marines is about the molds. Always was.

 

You have this completely backwards. Old marines are only the fluff. People have been truescaling the OG boys since forever. If Primaris didn't have such dumb lore the community wouldn't have fractured as bad as it did. Give me new sculpts with modern scaling for my old boys and I won't have to buy Primaris to convert them into 2 wound firstborn myself.

 

The lore is only the first step. I, some of my hobby click also agree - and i'm sure there's others out there, who completely dislike or even loathe the primaris sculpts. The lore can be a piss-pot, but combined with some of the garbage they've shoveled out, it's a real doozy. 
 

 

Super glad this 100% confirms smol marines are not getting squatted. 

 

GW is repackaging them as well! 

 

Krash

Not getting squatted, yet they're getting an poor analog of eveyrthing the old range had... hmmm? Any second now we'll be getting a InstagrabmenowandbuymeNinaTor Drop pod, biggified and with a thousand cluttered details for the tacticool aspect.

 


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#710
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If they do release upscaled versions of the old models, it’s just going to be “Primaris, but wearing parts of old armor mk’s”. They may even add special and heavy weapons to intercessor squads, but it still won’t be Old Marines. Because Old Marines isn’t about the fluff, Old Marines is about the molds. Always was.

 

You have this completely backwards. Old marines are only the fluff. People have been truescaling the OG boys since forever. If Primaris didn't have such dumb lore the community wouldn't have fractured as bad as it did. Give me new sculpts with modern scaling for my old boys and I won't have to buy Primaris to convert them into 2 wound firstborn myself.

 

The lore is only the first step. I, some of my hobby click also agree - and i'm sure there's others out there, who completely dislike or even loathe the primaris sculpts. The lore can be a piss-pot, but combined with some of the garbage they've shoveled out, it's a real doozy. 
 

 

Super glad this 100% confirms smol marines are not getting squatted. 

 

GW is repackaging them as well! 

 

Krash

Not getting squatted, yet they're getting an poor analog of eveyrthing the old range had... hmmm? Any second now we'll be getting a InstagrabmenowandbuymeNinaTor Drop pod, biggified and with a thousand cluttered details for the tacticool aspect.

 

 

*in your opinion.

 

I know a lot of people that like them, and clearly they've sold well. And the only "tacticool" stuff is the phobos stuff - which makes sense as its analogous with the scouts, which shared a similar aesthetic.

 

Primaris are cool in my opinion, they have a nice mix of visual appearances that make them pretty easy to identify on the table, and they're pretty easy to chapter up to fit particular themes still. I look forward to see what comes next personally.

 

But firstborn getting 2 wounds base for anything that isn't scouts is excellent too as whilst i don't like first born as models, i respect the fact many people do! Oh and i doubt firstborn are going anywhere any time soon :)
 


Edited by Blindhamster, 14 August 2020 - 01:20 PM.

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#711
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It could also be a last hurrah for old marines to clear inventory.
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#712
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I maintain my theory that Kirby set Primaris in motion to reboot the setting AoS-style and got swerved last second when Rountree came in. They still had all the r&d and sculpts on deck, though, and had to release them to recoup costs. Making old marines have parity with them now that 9e is here, along with the graphic design shifting way more towards the neo-90s look seem like things an ascended fan would dictate.
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#713
Bryan Blaire

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Seriously guys, if you don't like the Primaris style/scale models and you really fear that standard Astartes are going to go away in model form at some point, why worry about the Primaris stuff in any fashion and just buy what you want? There's zero need to focus on something that makes you hobby unhappy, and the constant posting about it without something constructive to say (such as "Don't like these models, but can do X with them to make them better in my eyes," etc.) doesn't do anything for anyone - it's just a reminder to you of something you don't like, and it just serves to poke at those who disagree.

Plenty of people play with models that aren't the current scale - I've got an old metal Terminator Captain who has become a Terminator Sergeant and is elevated on a base to get him to approximate correct current height. In the past, I played against a guy that still used a few old Beakie Marines from the Rogue Trader/2nd Edition transition period. Use the models you love, and if you really are worried about them going away - buy some more now, stock up, and later on, buy other people's used stuff that they are getting rid of. You don't HAVE to use the new scale models.

I like both types of model, and I'm doing my best to bring to fruition a blending of the larger scale with older styling and armor Marks as I can - personally I'd prefer if there was zero difference and the only change between the two scales was the scale, all the weaponry was simply options for Marines, and how you arranged weapon options was what determined squad type.

But using the upgrade to two Wounds for all Marine types to press some sort of "Woe is me, my Marines are going away" idea is just silly. Let's talk about that and what it does for the game. There's more to discuss than your favorite scale of Marines possibly going away at some unknownable/indeterminate time in the future.

I maintain my theory that Kirby set Primaris in motion to reboot the setting AoS-style and got swerved last second when Rountree came in. They still had all the r&d and sculpts on deck, though, and had to release them to recoup costs. Making old marines have parity with them now that 9e is here, along with the graphic design shifting way more towards the neo-90s look seem like things an ascended fan would dictate.

We know this theory is incorrect because Jes Goodwin has stated on camera that the Primaris line was started as a re-proportioning project for Marines - the Primaris concept came AFTER the idea of re-scaling/re-proportioning.

It's in either the first or second Voxcast Jes was in.
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#714
WarriorFish

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It looks like we don't have much new to add here, and are going in old circles. Please can we stick to the topic at hand or we'll have to close it until we hear something new. Thanks thumbsup.gif


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#715
War Angel

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If they do release upscaled versions of the old models, it’s just going to be “Primaris, but wearing parts of old armor mk’s”. They may even add special and heavy weapons to intercessor squads, but it still won’t be Old Marines. Because Old Marines isn’t about the fluff, Old Marines is about the molds. Always was.

 
You have this completely backwards. Old marines are only the fluff. People have been truescaling the OG boys since forever. If Primaris didn't have such dumb lore the community wouldn't have fractured as bad as it did. Give me new sculpts with modern scaling for my old boys and I won't have to buy Primaris to convert them into 2 wound firstborn myself.

Nope, they’re just Marines. And if the new models came out at Primaris size but with the different marks of armor you would buy it. The fluff of what a model is doesn’t matter on the table, just how it looks and how it performs.
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#716
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Bikes will presumably go up one but will attack bikes and scout bikes?

#717
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Seriously guys, if you don't like the Primaris style/scale models and you really fear that standard Astartes are going to go away in model form at some point, why worry about the Primaris stuff in any fashion and just buy what you want? There's zero need to focus on something that makes you hobby unhappy, and the constant posting about it without something constructive to say (such as "Don't like these models, but can do X with them to make them better in my eyes," etc.) doesn't do anything for anyone - it's just a reminder to you of something you don't like, and it just serves to poke at those who disagree.

Plenty of people play with models that aren't the current scale - I've got an old metal Terminator Captain who has become a Terminator Sergeant and is elevated on a base to get him to approximate correct current height. In the past, I played against a guy that still used a few old Beakie Marines from the Rogue Trader/2nd Edition transition period. Use the models you love, and if you really are worried about them going away - buy some more now, stock up, and later on, buy other people's used stuff that they are getting rid of. You don't HAVE to use the new scale models.

I like both types of model, and I'm doing my best to bring to fruition a blending of the larger scale with older styling and armor Marks as I can - personally I'd prefer if there was zero difference and the only change between the two scales was the scale, all the weaponry was simply options for Marines, and how you arranged weapon options was what determined squad type.

But using the upgrade to two Wounds for all Marine types to press some sort of "Woe is me, my Marines are going away" idea is just silly. Let's talk about that and what it does for the game. There's more to discuss than your favorite scale of Marines possibly going away at some unknownable/indeterminate time in the future.
 

I maintain my theory that Kirby set Primaris in motion to reboot the setting AoS-style and got swerved last second when Rountree came in. They still had all the r&d and sculpts on deck, though, and had to release them to recoup costs. Making old marines have parity with them now that 9e is here, along with the graphic design shifting way more towards the neo-90s look seem like things an ascended fan would dictate.

We know this theory is incorrect because Jes Goodwin has stated on camera that the Primaris line was started as a re-proportioning project for Marines - the Primaris concept came AFTER the idea of re-scaling/re-proportioning.

It's in either the first or second Voxcast Jes was in.

 

 

In a different Voxcast (pretty sure it was the one with him and Latham talking about the new Mechanicus units) Goodwin also noted that the Skitarii were designed with the idea that they would be the new human baseline for height and proportions.

 

Here's what I think the new 2W marines mean for the eventual durability rankings:

  1. Human, Eldar, T'au: T3 1W for almost all infantry (Ogryns, Wraithguard, etc are not included here).
  2. Orks: T4 1W for Boyz so hordes of them are still doable and interact appropriately with dedicated anti-infantry weapons (multilasers, burst cannons, etc); however, a variety of T4 2W units with smaller unit sizes (like Skarboyz) will be options as well. The true elites will be T4 3W or T5 2/3W.
  3. Adeptus/Hereticus Astartes: As we've seen, T4 2W for infantry across the board. More consistent across the board but with specific units being able to match the peaks of Ork durability (Gravis, Obliterators).
  4. "Trick" Astartes: Deathguard, Thousand Sons, certain Chapter rules; any Astartes army with either T5 or a special rule that helps them survive above and beyond what the majority of Astartes can.
  5. Adeptus Custodes: 'nuff said.
  6. Imperial/Heretic Knights: 'nuff said.

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#718
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I don't really understand the constant need to speculate/border line fearmonger about what GW is going to do with legacy Marines.. Thank you to those who are adding some sensibility to the conversation!

I don't see how GW updating legacy Marines to having 2W minimum across the board (sans scouts) can be anything other than a warm fuzzy for legacy Marines sticking around for a good while. 

If we should be nervous about anything it's the fact that GW is finally listening to their community.. what kind of apocalypse scenario is this that could have led us to this point in time, lol teehee.gif


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#719
nanosquid

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We know this theory is incorrect because Jes Goodwin has stated on camera that the Primaris line was started as a re-proportioning project for Marines - the Primaris concept came AFTER the idea of re-scaling/re-proportioning.
It's in either the first or second Voxcast Jes was in.


Oh I've seen that, and yeah I was aware. The Primaris concept in lore is what I'm referring to.

#720
nanosquid

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Orks: T4 1W for Boyz so hordes of them are still doable and interact appropriately with dedicated anti-infantry weapons (multilasers, burst cannons, etc); however, a variety of T4 2W units with smaller unit sizes (like Skarboyz) will be options as well. The true elites will be T4 3W or T5 2/3W.

This is actually already what orks are like. Nobz are 2w and meganobz are 3w. "More wounds" seems to be the Orks' design niche for the source of their durability.

Edit: apologies for double post, meant to edit previous.

Edited by nanosquid, 14 August 2020 - 02:27 PM.


#721
Blindhamster

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Orks: T4 1W for Boyz so hordes of them are still doable and interact appropriately with dedicated anti-infantry weapons (multilasers, burst cannons, etc); however, a variety of T4 2W units with smaller unit sizes (like Skarboyz) will be options as well. The true elites will be T4 3W or T5 2/3W.

This is actually already what orks are like. Nobz are 2w and meganobz are 3w. "More wounds" seems to be the Orks' design niche for the source of their durability.

Edit: apologies for double post, meant to edit previous.

 

if you go back to 2nd ed, it was basically the same for all armies, have a feeling it will be for 9th too tbh


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#722
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I haven't run a Tactical Squad or Vanguard Vets since 5th edition. Im very happy to dust them off.
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#723
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Plasma cannons look pretty interesting all of a sudden with theor blast and D2 profile
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#724
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I have Shadowspear and the Chaos Battleforce ready to be built. This update has motivated me to actually put paint on some models. Hard to be motivated to build them when all you hear is how bad CSM are as troops. Now just need to decide between Black Legion and Iron Warriors.
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#725
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I don't really understand the constant need to speculate/border line fearmonger about what GW is going to do with legacy Marines.. Thank you to those who are adding some sensibility to the conversation!

Speaking for myself, I wanted to temper the enthusiasm that might, say, lead a new player to heavily invest in something that (I suspect) will go away in 3-5 years. EDIT: Of course, as I said above, 3-5 years is a decent stretch in game terms, for many people.

 

I don't see how GW updating legacy Marines to having 2W minimum across the board (sans scouts) can be anything other than a warm fuzzy for legacy Marines sticking around for a good while. 

Well, I'm not personally certain of that logic, I guess we get to discuss it, which is nice.


Edited by atropos_priest, 14 August 2020 - 03:24 PM.

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