798 replies to this topic

[Azekai]

 

I don't really understand the constant need to speculate/border line fearmonger about what GW is going to do with legacy Marines.. Thank you to those who are adding some sensibility to the conversation!

Speaking for myself, I wanted to temper the enthusiasm that might, say, lead a new player to heavily invest in something that (I suspect) will go away in 3-5 years.

 

And then it still won't matter, since you can always proxy. I own and play with armorcast tyranids and stumpy 90s era plague marines. I have not had any issues with people gatekeeping the hobby and telling my toys are too old. It seems illogical to fret that someone might theoretically be churlish in 5 years and say 'your space men are too old, ew, buy an updated army.' Who cares. Don't play with them. 

I agree with ADB's theory of unifying the upscaled marines, but that doesn't mean people's old lovingly crafted models are going to be somehow outdated.

[Scribe]

 

 

I don't really understand the constant need to speculate/border line fearmonger about what GW is going to do with legacy Marines.. Thank you to those who are adding some sensibility to the conversation!

Speaking for myself, I wanted to temper the enthusiasm that might, say, lead a new player to heavily invest in something that (I suspect) will go away in 3-5 years.

 

And then it still won't matter, since you can always proxy. I own and play with armorcast tyranids and stumpy 90s era plague marines. I have not had any issues with people gatekeeping the hobby and telling my toys are too old. It seems illogical to fret that someone might theoretically be churlish in 5 years and say 'your space men are too old, ew, buy an updated army.' Who cares. Don't play with them. 

I agree with ADB's theory of unifying the upscaled marines, but that doesn't mean people's old lovingly crafted models are going to be somehow outdated.

 

 

And thats a fine opinion, but people (I for example) have all kinds of weird reasons they may wish to not buy in on old marines considering the potential path.

[wildweasel]

Plasma cannons look pretty interesting all of a sudden with theor blast and D2 profile

 

Wait what? Where have we seen the plasma cannon profile?

[Petitioner's City]

This is all just an excuse to really study Veteran Sergeant's true scale tutorial and put into practice

https://veteranserge...arine-tutorial/

All you need is honestly cutting the five central joins for some plasticard, rather than the many many cuts he suggests (whcuh make a better effect ofc)

[Bloody Legionnaire]

 

I don't really understand the constant need to speculate/border line fearmonger about what GW is going to do with legacy Marines.. Thank you to those who are adding some sensibility to the conversation!

Speaking for myself, I wanted to temper the enthusiasm that might, say, lead a new player to heavily invest in something that (I suspect) will go away in 3-5 years. EDIT: Of course, as I said above, 3-5 years is a decent stretch in game terms, for many people.

 

I don't see how GW updating legacy Marines to having 2W minimum across the board (sans scouts) can be anything other than a warm fuzzy for legacy Marines sticking around for a good while. 

Well, I'm not personally certain of that logic, I guess we get to discuss it, which is nice.

 

 

It's refreshing to have these kinds of posts and conversations on the forums/interwebnets. I appreciate you bud!

I've said it many times over the past couple of days, but GW of course wants to make money as a business. I believe they are more than happy to continue selling all options in the legacy SM line if it continues to be profitable to them. The reason I see the "warm fuzzy" is the increase will lead to more people playing SM competitively.. even if those competitive players have collections of legacy Marines and aren't buying more themselves.. inevitably meta chasing will lead to people buying more legacy Marines. Then there will be the crowd who are encouraged to buy/continue to buy legacy Marines because they are better/have new rules/have applicability/ have relevance on the table top. In my humble opinion (since we're all openly conjecting) Legacy Marines will be around for quite a few editions to come at minimum. I believe that is isolated to the infantry models though... with the HH/WH30k, I believe all the legacy vehicles will not be going away at all. 

I do not believe any of that is a stretch. Only leaving vets and terminators going up a wound and not regular Marines, as other had speculated would have been a different story. Now that we know all Marines are going to be 2W is a big signal for me. Now considering we have Chaos Marines in the game this was probably inevitable. From a gaming stand point their rules had to be updated in order to continue to be valid because they have no primaris equivalent. It would have been weird to upgrade CSM to 2W and not the loyalist Marines along with them. 

[jaxom]

This is all just an excuse to really study Veteran Sergeant's true scale tutorial and put into practice

https://veteranserge...arine-tutorial/

All you need is honestly cutting the five central joins for some plasticard, rather than the many many cuts he suggests (whcuh make a better effect ofc)

 

You don't even need that many. Two cuts (one in each thigh), a spacer between the torso and leg, GS to neaten things out and pouches to hide any weirdness at the waist,

 

[Arkhanist]

If we should be nervous about anything it's the fact that GW is finally listening to their community.. what kind of apocalypse scenario is this that could have led us to this point in time, lol 

The thing I like most about what we know so far is that most of the love is going towards units and weapons that haven't been relevent for years, absent some niche strat/ability combo buff.

 

If I'd come on here a couple of months ago and said that the things I've seen people seriously thinking of dusting off and putting in their lists included a tactical squad in a drop pod to capture objectives, tank hunting sternguard with multimeltas and/or land speeders with same, a razorback BBQ squad with flamers and heavy flamers, heavy plasma incinerator hellblasters, more dreadnoughts, that terminators were a hot topic, and Death Guard armies with a lot of plague marines looked pretty scary, I would have been laughed out the forum.

 

By making a much wider range of units and weapons suddenly viable again, we might even see some of the complex strat and rules scaffolding used previously to buff marines up become simplified a bit.

 

I can only hope that other codexes will see similar work to bring up those long languishing weapons and units, so there's not only one or two good options in a codex, but many.

[Sweetcurse]

This is all just an excuse to really study Veteran Sergeant's true scale tutorial and put into practice

https://veteranserge...arine-tutorial/

All you need is honestly cutting the five central joins for some plasticard, rather than the many many cuts he suggests (whcuh make a better effect ofc)

I simply used terminator legs and added green stuff between the chest pieces to make the top bulkier and called or a day. Looks great.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

 

 

If they do release upscaled versions of the old models, it’s just going to be “Primaris, but wearing parts of old armor mk’s”. They may even add special and heavy weapons to intercessor squads, but it still won’t be Old Marines. Because Old Marines isn’t about the fluff, Old Marines is about the molds. Always was.

 
You have this completely backwards. Old marines are only the fluff. People have been truescaling the OG boys since forever. If Primaris didn't have such dumb lore the community wouldn't have fractured as bad as it did. Give me new sculpts with modern scaling for my old boys and I won't have to buy Primaris to convert them into 2 wound firstborn myself.

Nope, they’re just Marines. And if the new models came out at Primaris size but with the different marks of armor you would buy it. The fluff of what a model is doesn’t matter on the table, just how it looks and how it performs.

 

 

 

I don't understand this mentality. All of my marines are Black Templar because I love their fluff. Everything about the attitude and history of that chapter speaks to me, and so I paint them black and spend the extra time adding loincloths and tabards. Then, because they are Black Templars, I play them as such. I don't use White Scars rules because they're stronger, or Blood Angels, or Space Wolves, and just have them visually be Black Templars. 

 

This carries over to model types as well. I don't play Primaris marines because I dislike their fluff. I don't like how they entered the setting or how they are used by the devs, so I don't buy them, paint them, or add them to my Templars. Thus, their rules all through 8th were trumped by their lore, and I never touched them. 

 

Now that SM are all 2 wounds a piece, I might go buy some intercessor packs and painstakingly convert them into not being intercessors so that my Firstborn or truescale, and if a new kit was released that was Primaris marines in MK III armor I WOULD buy it in a heart beat, but I'd never use them as Primaris, and if they had Primaris identifiers on them I'd file those off and use them as Firstborn. It doesn't matter if using them as Primaris would give them +1 save and +2 attacks, if their fluff is dumb I won't use them as such. That's what I meant by the fluff being the only thing that matters. The portion of the player base that I belong to won't buy something, or build an army, just because the rules are strong. If something looks good on the table we will make it into something fluff wise we approve of, and if that can't be done I myself won't buy or use it. 

 

So nah. Old Marines is and always has been about the fluff. If Primaris were just upscaled marines with no bad story baggage I'd have bought a bunch already. It's their fluff that made them so poisonous. Even the people that hate their armor design likely could have found a suitable way to model them out to taste if it hadn't been for that.

 

All of this having been said, I'm glad that the old and new lines are being moved toward a similar stat line. If GW were to eventually phase out the Primaris part and start having them all function as Just Marines, then people like me could convert away and use whatever stats we wanted without feeling it was poisoned by that bad fluff, and that seems to be what is happening now. This process would be a lot easier if all the new models didn't have such goofy names though. Nobody is ever going to believe an old marine was part of an Intercessor squad.

[Scribe]

Fluff wise, it won't be the Primaris that go away, but your free of course to see it any way you like.

[Blindhamster]

Realistically the primaris units aren't likely to go anywhere, no. But realistically, the firstborn stuff isn't going anywhere for a fair whilst still. I'm not convinced we'll see reboots of the classic stuff either, but could be wrong there. Based on art on the codex cover though, i do think we'll see some kind of primaris unit come out soon that has more elements of the firstborn in their armour design.

[Scribe]

I think fluff wise, GW has cast the die. It's Primaris going forward, with them becoming more like OG marines until the distinction is irrelevant.

Crunch wise, probably the same, but with OG marines moving closer to Primaris, until the Molds break, and then it's all one and the same for all but the neckiest of beards.

If they put out a 3rd line of loyalist generic marines, many will be annoyed.

[Wispy]

"neckiest of beards" is a great turn of phrase.

[Vermintide]

I'm guessing we'll see a sort of merger at some point down the line. Intercessors et al being grouped under "tactical", hellblasters and friends being described as "devastators", and so on and so forth. Basically, somebody hypothetically joining the hobby in 12th edition or whenever, basically won't notice much of a difference, unless they decide to dig deep on Lexicanum, or find the 8 year old flame wars over it on forums like this

 

We're just at a transition point where GW wanted to update the rules for their biggest faction, but didn't want to invalidate a ton of everyone's models when they did it and force people to go snipping off special weapons etc. The game in general is probably going to move in the Primaris-ish direction, with units having specific loadouts based on the kit they're sold as; rather than based on the archaic early 90s GW business model of selling individual pewter figures with different guns.

[Noserenda]

Exactly, GW is always model lead and i still dont think we will ever see more Hobbit marines, Chaos will continue being embiggened as they get revamped and Loyalists will all be Primaris. We know the Hobbits arent getting legend-ed at least for the life cycle of this codex because we have seen the contents page, but yeah as moulds crack they are going to look at numbers and decide whether to reinvest in them again. 

The weapons definitely needed revamping tanks to all the power creeps since... 1st edition for some of them(!) with all kinds of change in that time. The wounds im ambivalent on, though its keep to see some competitive players dig out models that give them joy, whatever they are. I seriously doubt they will sell enough to resurrect the hobbit marine line and i equally doubt a command came down from on high to make them seller more, the rules guys wanted to make the change for their own reasons, presumably to make marines more fluffy rather than any other goal.

Ultimately we are all speculating though  

[wildweasel]

People need to look at the copyright dates on some Falcon and Vyper sprues.

[Scribe]

People need to look at the copyright dates on some Falcon and Vyper sprues.

 

Zerkers are 99 I think. Simply unacceptable that we have had 415 Loyalist Marine releases, and Zerkers just sit there, looking at their overgrown paws.

[Master Sheol]

People need to look at the copyright dates on some Falcon and Vyper sprues.

Zerkers are 99 I think. Simply unacceptable that we have had 415 Loyalist Marine releases, and Zerkers just sit there, looking at their overgrown paws.

At least Zerkers are plastic
Noise Marines are a resin conversion kit designed for old OOP dwarf CSM

Edited by Master Sheol, 14 August 2020 - 06:21 PM.

[dicebod]

I don't want to throw a huge spanner in the works here, but I wonder if this is a precursor to 30K's rule set changing, since everything over there is mini marines.  I feel like 1 wound everywhere would have been a weird sell with 2 wound primaris in 40K, but wound parity might make such a rules shift a bit more interesting.

[Master Sheol]

I don't want to throw a huge spanner in the works here, but I wonder if this is a precursor to 30K's rule set changing, since everything over there is mini marines. I feel like 1 wound everywhere would have been a weird sell with 2 wound primaris in 40K, but wound parity might make such a rules shift a bit more interesting.

HH will remain as it is now forever IMHO
FW doesn't seem to have any will to change the 30k rules

They also stopped writing indexes and Imperial Armour books and now new indexes will be handled by the 40k team

Edited by Master Sheol, 14 August 2020 - 06:28 PM.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There are CSM in 40k

I highly doubt 30k will change ruleset. GW seems to have plans for 'historical' games, like the new Fantasy coming out as well, to maintain the older style rulesets for those that like them.

 

They also can barely maintain pace writing their black books, imagine them trying to redo the system to 9e... I certainly can't imagine them doing so.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 14 August 2020 - 06:32 PM.

[Toxichobbit]

 

People need to look at the copyright dates on some Falcon and Vyper sprues.

 

Zerkers are 99 I think. Simply unacceptable that we have had 415 Loyalist Marine releases, and Zerkers just sit there, looking at their overgrown paws.

 

Yeah, Bezerkers are 1999. But the Falcon is 1997 and the Vyper is 1996, which is the point being made. The Vyper crew are also old Guardians, so out of date that they look old next to the current Guardians, who themselves are less than 6 months younger than the Bezerkers. On top of that, 5/6 Phoenix Lords, Warp Spiders and the Avatar are from 1994.

 

Don't get me wrong, Bezerkers are ancient, look like crap and need to be re-sculpted. But at least Chaos is doing well compared to the Eldar range. I don't think we need to be arguing over who has it worse. It's unacceptable that any army is using decades old kits while Marines have had almost their entire range re-done multiple times.

Edited by Toxichobbit, 14 August 2020 - 06:49 PM.

[wildweasel]

My point is molds for plastic things don't break.

[Scribe]

Yes I'm not saying Berzerkers needs greater than others.

Eldar have a near timeless range but could use the release windows on any given metal unit.

The point is, less for Loyalist marines, is more for everything else.

[Joe]

My point is molds for plastic things don't break.

 

This is false. They can break, it's just exceedingly uncommon.