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All Firstborn (AND CHAOS) get additional wounds!


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#101
Hellex_The_Thanatar

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deathwing meta time?


Aren't they already pretty usable? They have some of the best melee + strats + invuls in the game? Those maces are... disgusting.

#102
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Two wounds for OG Marines would make a lot of sense with a thread I saw on Twitter, where A D-B was explaining that the whole 'Primaris' thing is transitional. It's not supposed to be some big cleave in the background, or between the different Marines in a Chapter. They're just Space Marines, and the differences between them are going to be mentioned/reflected less and less as we move away from their initial introduction.

idk man those black library guys are finnickey..


 

deathwing meta time?


Aren't they already pretty usable? They have some of the best melee + strats + invuls in the game? Those maces are... disgusting.

 

the knights are honestly not that good rn because they cost more then generic thudnernators and are no longer specific to our stratagems. so you normally field generic thundernators now because.. why would you use a unit with no upside. most have agrred now that u normally wanna run thudnernators with a cml maybe a chainfist or powerfist boy to carry the cyclones and plink at stuff with his storm bolter


Edited by aura_enchanted, 10 August 2020 - 08:18 PM.

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#103
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I don't want to crash the hype train, but it is possible that they just got their third wound in the simple datasheet to account for the missing invulnerability save. They could stay at 2W in the new codex.
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#104
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Two wounds for OG Marines would make a lot of sense with a thread I saw on Twitter, where A D-B was explaining that the whole 'Primaris' thing is transitional, a way to integrate the new scale and unit types into the setting. It's not supposed to be some big cleave in the background, or between the different Marines in a Chapter. They're just Space Marines, and the differences between them are going to be mentioned/reflected less and less as we move away from their initial introduction.


if you can dig that tweet it would be greatly appreciated. I tried and failed...
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#105
Lemondish

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Two wounds for OG Marines would make a lot of sense with a thread I saw on Twitter, where A D-B was explaining that the whole 'Primaris' thing is transitional, a way to integrate the new scale and unit types into the setting. It's not supposed to be some big cleave in the background, or between the different Marines in a Chapter. They're just Space Marines, and the differences between them are going to be mentioned/reflected less and less as we move away from their initial introduction.

 

That sounds like an absolute blast to read, do you have a link? 

 

I imagined the original goal for Primaris was to not only redefine what a Marine was, but also to redefine how the army plays. Units being as limited in wargear options as they currently are, and everybody using a bespoke weapon that only they had access to (no wider Imperium presence) gave them new design space that they otherwise wouldn't have had if they kept up with what the current Marine units were designed to do. 


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#106
Jings

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PLEASE OH GOD PLEASE LET MARINES GET +1 WOUNDS I'LL TSKE THEM NOT GETTING THE ATTACK JUST PLEASE GIVE THEM ALL THE WOUND
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#107
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It’ll be interesting to see what their points increase is (assuming they have one). They were already seeing play competitively and now at 3W they’re going to be very strong. Their saves make each wound count for more and being at an odd number of wounds reduces the effectiveness of 2D weapons who had profiles tailor made for taking them down such as overcharged plasma.

Comparing them to Bladeguard, their points are about right for 3W already. If we discount weapon costs, a Bladeguard comes to 25 points with a storm shield (kept to have a closer statline), compared to 23 for a Terminator. That 2 points gets you an extra attack and a better invuln, while losing the ability to teleport. Looking at Assault Terminators, it's 27 point for the body plus shield. Assuming the storm shield change carries over, that's 2 more points and 1 less attack to gain the ability to deep strike, which seems fairly reasonable, but about 1 ppm more than it should be. If the Terminators keep a 3++ shield, it's probably even or 1 point less than it should be, so I'd up the cost of Terminator shields if they stay a 3++.

If stormshields get changed across the board then your assault terminators will have have a 1+ save and access to thunder hammers. Competitively I don’t think you’d see Bladeguard considering their biggest weakness is needing to get into combat and deepstrike is a relatively safe way to do that. If SS stay at a 3++ that’s where they’d start getting a bit ridiculous at their price. They’ll start becoming nearly impossible to remove from objectives with additional buffs stacked on top like FNPs, minuses to hit etc. That combined with GW usually charging more points for the ability to take special weapons in units makes me think they’ll go up.

If terminators stay at the same price they’ll outclass quite a few units points to durability wise. Don’t get me wrong, I’m glad they’re going to 3. That feels more right for them. I also think they should be T5, but they would need a slight points adjustment for that too.

#108
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If all Firstborn marines (including bike squadrons) are set to gain +1 wound, perhaps it accounts for Outriders having 4 wounds as base...

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#109
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if you can dig that tweet it would be greatly appreciated. I tried and failed...

 

The thread starts here, but dig down into some of the conversations in the replies, and you get a little bit more of what I was talking about.

 

BTW, just so no one's taking this the wrong way, I don't mean to imply that A D-B has some secret foreknowledge that he's hinting at here. More that he regularly talks to the Studio folks, and has a pretty good idea of where they (and other BL authors and GW as a whole) are at when it comes to this particular topic. If they're trying to close that perceived gap, and put the whole "Primaris vs. Firstborn" idea behind them, bringing mini-Marines more in line with Primaris stats wouldn't be a bad way to start out.


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#110
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One of my main concerns is tactical marines not being as prevalent and worried about them being phased away like certain other armies.

"Maybe. Who knows for sure? But it's easy to imagine (and I can't help but love) the idea that in X years we'll have an Intercessor squad with the 'current' Tactical squad weapon choices, armour mark variants, and options for heavy weapon, etc.

It wouldn't shock me, either way."

From ADBs twitter

Edited by Dark Shepherd, 10 August 2020 - 08:58 PM.

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#111
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#112
Bryan Blaire

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BTW, just so no one's taking this the wrong way, I don't mean to imply that A D-B has some secret foreknowledge that he's hinting at here. More that he regularly talks to the Studio folks, and has a pretty good idea of where they (and other BL authors and GW as a whole) are at when it comes to this particular topic. If they're trying to close that perceived gap, and put the whole "Primaris vs. Firstborn" idea behind them, bringing mini-Marines more in line with Primaris stats wouldn't be a bad way to start out.

Again, according to Jes, the "Primaris" line started out as a way to simply rescale the Marines. I've also said before that I thought that they basically needed a reason to justify the "Movie Marines" stat-line, that people would be upset (other than Marine players) if Marines just instantly jumped up to multi-wound, multi-attack stat lines and nothing was done similarly for the non-Marine factions.

Part of my reasoning has always been that Marines haven't really been the elite army that they've been depicted as in the last probably three to four editions (maybe more) and people have complained and I think GW heard, but they need something story-wise to justify the change. I believe we talked about this pre-7th, and I had said that they might even justify a non-Marine power armored force line as normal humans possibly with some Marine implants as 1W versions, and the Primaris would represent Marines going forward with higher stats. Doesn't look like they are doing that though. :lol:

Terminators getting 3W, and possibly standard Astartes getting 2W, slowly merging into a single "Primaris" type stat line, would very much be something I could see GW doing, and eventually just dropping the Primaris from standard vernacular, reserved only for the IP protection type text, but the majority of the writing just being about Space Marines (which is what GW has said they were all along).
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#113
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It's about Terminators, not all the other armies and comparisons between them and such.

 

Let's keep it focused.


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#114
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I guess if tactical marines get an extra wound theyd go up in points to account for it.

Intercessors being 25% more makes sense currently but the extra attack is situational and the AP is good but the flexibility and wider array of transport options would definitely make tacticals be a flat out better choice - which could be the intention as others have suggested lol.

That being said, perhaps they'll drop the primaris keyword and just make them all marines again. That would be nice.

As far as terminators themselves go? That's excellent as it makes them into the super tanky beasts they're meant to be! Even if I do still hate the models

Edited by Blindhamster, 10 August 2020 - 09:44 PM.

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#115
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It's about Terminators, not all the other armies and comparisons between them and such.

 

Let's keep it focused.

 

If it is about Terminators only why all the talk of normal marines, bikes and Chaos are not being deleted or censored? 

 

I feel that my point was a valid question and slightly annoyed that you chose to single out Terminators only, yet have not gone about taking away any other comments that do not include Terminator only posts.   


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#116
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I think Terminators getting an extra wound means precisely nothing regards the rest of the hobbitmarine range, getting terminators appropriately tough has been an eternal struggle for GW since they dropped the 2d6 saves in 3rd, id wager this is just the latest iteration of that as certainly in 8th Terminators were not particularly tough (I know, ive got a Terminator Black legion army :D ) A third wound is a lot more valuable than a second given how common 2D weapons are compared to 3D

The entire range getting a free extra wound just seems insane.

I think ADB is talking in universe acceptance too, Marines are marines, Primaris or not, they dont have that granular breakdown we enjoy as wargamers to highlight the differences between them. 



#117
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I think ADB is talking in universe acceptance too, Marines are marines, Primaris or not, they dont have that granular breakdown we enjoy as wargamers to highlight the differences between them. 

Yep. His approach (which you can see in Spear of the Emperor) is basically just to largely ignore the differences between the two, they're just all Space Marines. Occasionally the armour pattern or extra height is noted but there's no "and the Primaris marines fought 100x better than their brothers", which is the way it should be. Wouldn't read into his comments re: future releases. That being said, I certainly hope his guess pans out.

 

Anyway, as it stands: 3W Terminators are great either way. It's hard to imagine Terminators being bumped up to 3W and Firstborn being left at 1W though, and while I understand the mods want to clamp down on frantic speculation, it's an obvious and natural conclusion to reach. NGL I'm so excited at the idea of CSM having 2W.

 

I have to admit though, I'm curious as to what the state of 40k would be if all marines are bumped up to 2W. I can't imagine another change having an impact that large on the game (given that SM + CSM combined must be something ridiculous like 70% of the playerbase).


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#118
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Gaining a wound is a big deal for terminators because it means they are durable enough to deepstrike in, and either survive the opponents turn of shooting, or at least soak up a lot of their firepower.

 

I remember in 5th ed, hammer+shield terminators were common to see, especially coming out of land raiders. They worked well as a beatstick that couldn't be ignored. And it wasn't enough to just shoot them, because nothing was particularly efficient at killing them. If you ignored them, they broke you. If you shoot them, you're wasting a lot of firepower. The real solution was that you needed to be able to outmanuever them, tarpit them, or have invested in something like psychic powers (which would have reduced your overall firepower.)

 

In other words, they were a problem that couldn't be solved efficiently just through focus fire. And what problem have we had all through 8th ed? That the most efficient solution to everything was just more ranged firepower, with very little to break up this dynamic other than a few things that you'd screen against with hordes.

 

We've seen a lot of 9th's changes, from terrain to missions, be about giving people incentives to not just spam more of the most efficient ranged firepower. And making terminators this durable is another reason. You gotta have some more tricks up your sleeve to deal with this now. (Of course, if they get major points adjustments for this that might change.)

 

If we do see all old marines move to W2, that'll be good because they've had durability problems all through 8th. Lack of durability was also the main reason to not run any elite old marine units. Tacs could be okay because they were cheap, but it was never efficient to spend more points on an elite statline or more wargear because nothing increased durability enough to compensate. Cult Marines also had this problem. So I'd suspect that if this change does come, we'll see a lot more reason to field things like Vets, Chosen, and cult marines. And that's why I suspect that it WILL come.

 

GW has let basically the entire old marine range, for every marine faction, be worthless and unfieldable for an entire edition, with only a couple exceptions. They always needed a bit more firepower and a bunch more durability to compensate for 8th's system wide changes that indirectly gutted them. We're seeing more firepower come through doctrines, bolter discipline, and astartes chainswords now. And now this could be the durability fix. Some points tweaks need to happen too, but it looks like we may finally return to marines feeling like marines. (And then hopefully we'll start to see fixes for Xenos factions. But let's be real here, Xenos are balanced against marines. Its hard to fix them before fixing marines.)

 

I'm not sure that these changes were the best way to fix the classic MeQ statline, but they are A fix, and that's better than nothing. Most of the other ways you could have fixed things would have meant a lot more bookkeeping or dice rolling too.


Edited by Drudge Dreadnought, 10 August 2020 - 10:39 PM.

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#119
Black Blow Fly

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If firstborn remain as is I hope people here don’t go getting all salty again.
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#120
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Elites finally being Elites is good.

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Classic PA Astartes moving up to 2W would be icing on the cake and would make me play again.

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#121
Wulf Vengis

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Well this certainly interesting...
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#122
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If firstborn remain as is I hope people here don’t go getting all salty again.


If they do I bet that someone makes a post proclaiming the end of the hobby once again (or something similar)
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#123
MegaVolt87

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Cataphractii and tartaros have clearly been consolidated into the relic terminator entry in the new SM dex index page. So there is the potential those units are under the same restrictions as the FW relic rules for FW SM units.

Edited by MegaVolt87, 10 August 2020 - 11:19 PM.

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#124
chapter master 454

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So wait...that rumour I got hit with by a store guy may actually be true? No...I will not...Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment...but...yet I can't.

 

Mental conflict over being hopeful...


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#125
Lagrath

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I really hope this is for everyone. I've always felt that Blightlords and Deathshroud should be 3 wounds for how expensive and slow they are.




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