42 replies to this topic

[Moonreaper666]

Two things that irks me about the lore

1. With the appearance of Perpetuals and Daemons technology should have accelerated to an unfathomable level, like Dark Age of Technology civilizations during the Early Bronze Age or before that

-Sure you can Altantis and Bronze Age Collapse as viable explanations as well as other highly-advance nations decimated by the Emperor, Daemons and Perpetuals but it can't explain why every advanced nation disappears throughout history

-It would be interesting to have novels on Be'lakor the First Daemon Prince and how he connects with the Emperor/Perpetuals and the very advanced civilizations he built on Earth and in space. His journey from a Perpetual to a Power-hungry Daemon Prince and archenemy to the Emperor (Be'lakor should be able to hurt the Emperor and come very close to killing him. Causing the Emperor to be more paranoid and create the Primarchs and Custodes)

-Perhaps have some/most of these Bronze-Age-Advanced Civilizations leave Earth and the Milky Way Galaxy (Only to meet the Tyranids, Orks, Necrons, Chaos or another horrible fate. This is Warhammer after all)

2. All of Humanity should be worshipping Chaos (I know Khorne, Nurgle and Tzeentch 'awakened' during the Medieval Age but Chaos gives the middle-finger to time, space and logic all the damn time and get away with it)

-Entire civilizations, heck most of humanity, would jump at the gun to worship the Dark Gods as they are REAL AND PROVIDE MATERIAL BENEFITS!. In fact, Chaos should be the First-and-Only religion humans worship!

-Be'lakor's story should provide insight on how so many or all Ancient Humans worship Chaos. Make him the Vandal Savage of Warhammer

-Imagine the Ancient Sumerians using Possessed Soldiers, summoned Daemons and Warped Automatons to do their bidding. Germans using Warp Sorcery and Daemons during both World Wars. Aztecs summoning Skulltaker!

-People in desperate situations throughout Real Life history selling their souls to Chaos. Starving peasant boys becoming Possessed just to live longer. Ancient women becoming Sorcerers so they are no longer property in a male-dominated society

-I highly doubt the Emperor, especially back then, is capable or willing to wipe out humanity

These two things should be explored. I wished Josh Reynolds was still working for GW because stories like these would be interesting. He could do a Be'lakor Trilogy

ADB could do a Trilogy featuring similar grimnature like his Talos stories (Surprised he hasn't done any stories with Decimus post-Rift)

Edited by Moonreaper666, 14 August 2020 - 05:42 PM.
Removing some RL comparisons

[Noserenda]

Mostly because if mankind widely worshipped the Chaos gods we would never have climbed out of anarchy and colonised the stars, kind of making 40k a liiiiiittle bit different.

Chaos worship is not exactly even with the material benefits either, for every one champion who gets super strength or sorcery you have ten with a face in their chest, worms for teeth or eyes on the tops of their feet or something. There is a reason cults tend to form around powerful individuals.

I think trying to tie it into RL history is a bad idea, especially the nuclear takes on historical under dogs as chaos worshippers...

[Scribe]

Belakor is a perpetual? Abnett ruined him too?

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the down sides of chaos. Like accidentally exploding your brain and killing everyone around you, or having your soul torn out and eaten by a daemon, or being forcibly mutated into a jibbering pile of tentacles and mouths.

 

Some of the short fiction of the universe does specifically go into how many people worship the dark gods, and how much of that worship is unknowing. Like, you might be praying to Mars, god of war, and actually be feeding Khorne. That's how chaos functions. It doesn't matter so much what you Think you're worshipping, if it falls into that god's domain you're actually getting them.

 

As to why high tech societies keep vanishing? Off of the top of my head I think it's the AI problem. AI is what ruined Earth in 40K lore, and is what the T'au keep flirting with. It's one of the story elements that makes them seem like an upstart naive empire. Humans know that once AI reaches a certain level of intelligence it'll take over and ruin their day, but T'au depend on it too heavily to change, and feel that they'll do a better job managing it than the Humans did. 

[Scribe]

I'd actually like the OP to source these comments before I go full tilt..

[Moonreaper666]

Mostly because if mankind widely worshipped the Chaos gods we would never have climbed out of anarchy and colonised the stars, kind of making 40k a liiiiiittle bit different.

Chaos worship is not exactly even with the material benefits either, for every one champion who gets super strength or sorcery you have ten with a face in their chest, worms for teeth or eyes on the tops of their feet or something. There is a reason cults tend to form around powerful individuals.
I think trying to tie it into RL history is a bad idea, especially the nuclear takes on historical under dogs as chaos worshippers...

I argue the opposite. Mankind would have colonized the stars during the Early-Bronze Age so Chaos has Sextillions of humans to play with. It would be like a time-travel protagonist industrializing ancient civilizations but on steroids. One Chaos Champion can outright build an advanced nation from scratch

Chaos Future Feudalism is more like it. At least Chaos can grant rewards while other religions provide only false hope

It wouldn't surprise me that both or multiple sides in a war would worship Chaos to gain a military and scientific advantage. Napoleon and his Coalition enemies would be summoning Daemons to win wars!

Vilitch the Curseling comes to mind as an underdog. It would be very interesting stories to read about how desperate people willing worship Chaos to survive. Many would worship Nurgle to survive the Black Death

It would be better if the history of Warhammer M1, M2 and the Bronze Age diverges from ours a lot. Instead of a guy named Shakespear its multiple women under the alias of Shakespire

[Scribe]

Change the name of this thread to 'Speculation and Alternative Facts of Warhammer history' please.

[librisrouge]

You're assuming that all of the things you mentioned didn't happen. You assume ancient Sumerians did not utilize possessed soldiers. You assume that Atlantis didn't utilize warp tech. You assume that the Emperor didn't create super being, like maybe some kind of near magical bodyguards, because of encountering beings like Belakor who scared him.

 

Still, Chaos is fickle and has no loyalty. Perhaps those possessed would have conquered the world so Tzeentch decided to turn off the power in the middle of battle because 1- he doesn't want a unified world because it'd be BORING and 2- for the lulz. Perhaps Atlantis attempted to turn their island into some kind of giant space ship and take to the stars, only for the warp charged engines to explode, taking the island with it. Perhaps the Emperor created a force of golden bodyguards who are awesome so that he doesn't have to worry as much about the next Belakor ruining his plans.

 

So much of 40k is left blank. This is either because they haven't gotten to it yet or so that we can use it as our own sandbox. Either way, just because it doesn't mention these things, doesn't mean it didn't happen in 40k.

[Moonreaper666]

Someone hasn't been paying attention to the down sides of chaos. Like accidentally exploding your brain and killing everyone around you, or having your soul torn out and eaten by a daemon, or being forcibly mutated into a jibbering pile of tentacles and mouths.

Some of the short fiction of the universe does specifically go into how many people worship the dark gods, and how much of that worship is unknowing. Like, you might be praying to Mars, god of war, and actually be feeding Khorne. That's how chaos functions. It doesn't matter so much what you Think you're worshipping, if it falls into that god's domain you're actually getting them.

As to why high tech societies keep vanishing? Off of the top of my head I think it's the AI problem. AI is what ruined Earth in 40K lore, and is what the T'au keep flirting with. It's one of the story elements that makes them seem like an upstart naive empire. Humans know that once AI reaches a certain level of intelligence it'll take over and ruin their day, but T'au depend on it too heavily to change, and feel that they'll do a better job managing it than the Humans did.

The Dark Mechanicum has been using AIs since the Heresy and they are fine. In fact, they are growing while the Mechanicus is losing planets. Sometimes its because the DM is taking said planets the Loyalists are losing

Then why not merge humans with AI? The Dark Mechanicum does that and merge Cyborgs with the Warp to boot. Combine Flesh, Steel and Warp to make a new species or subspecies

In the Heresy there were plenty of Chaos-human and Chaos-xeno civilizations that were doing fine until the Imperium invades

In Legion, a Chaos civilization has access to Psyker magic that can slice Titans with ease.

[Noserenda]

How... How does any of that make any sense? 

Chaos worship has never sped up scientific advancement, quite the opposite  in fact as its quite vehemently anti teamwork which is quite important, some of the greatest minds of 30k and pootling around the EoT achieving very little precisely because they ended up turning to chaos.

Let alone bronze age societies who lack... Everything youd need to make a spacefaring civilisation.

[Lexington]

40K needs less Warp, not more.

[RandyB]

Um, excuse me. I have a question.

Where is the God of Order?

[Scribe]

Um, excuse me. I have a question.

Where is the God of Order?

 

Fantasy, in the section under 'fluff derived from Moorcock', circa 88 and 90.

 

Not at all a thing in any real sense in 40K.

[Splog]

The God of Order is incarnated as Roboute Guilliman

[Scribe]

Depending on author, and timing, its the Emperor really, but again that depends on which readings you believe to be valid.

[Splog]

OP: “ With the appearance of Perpetuals and Daemons technology should have accelerated to an unfathomable level, like Dark Age of Technology civilizations during the Early Bronze Age or before that”

Why?

All those chaos worshippers in the eye of chaos don’t seem to be accelerating to some super technology levels

And I take it that the OP isn’t one of those people who are deeply unhappy about how much Cawl has been able to achieve in his 10k lifespan

[Fajita Fan]

I have no idea what's going on in this thread.  This looks like the Cliffs Notes to a book I didn't read.

[Moonreaper666]

It would explain a lot of their behaviour. It would explain why beings that can wipe out everyone on a planet on a whim do the bare minimum to plan and enact the Heresy

It's not just me. Josh Reynolds compares the gods to children on their fickle attention

Just giving Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy would have allowed Horus an easy win:

-Abaddon shortens Isstvan III from 6 months to several weeks. He kills Loken and Morturg derailing the Knights-Errants/Grey Knights storyline. Drach'nyen can't be blocked or parried and can smash a Titan's foot with one-hit. Traitors suffer fewer casualties and harvest geneseed from the dead

-Abaddon decimates the Raven Guard at Drop Site Massacre. A few thousand RG dead at his hand including Sharrowkyn, Soukhonou, Nev brothers and Gherith Arendi. Shattered Legions much weaker and much less effective in the Heresy. Fabius Bile's Ehanced Warriors butcher Corax and the Raven Guard resulting in the RG sitting out the war. Another Loyalist group has to take care of Bile and his Terrata, taking heavy casualties in the process

(More dead Loyalist = Less dead Traitors + More Loyalist geneseed to harvest)

-Abaddon wipes out the Knight-Errants on the Veneful Spirit before going on a rampage against the Space Wolves. Because there were too many Sons of Horus, Russ is wounded before he fights Horus. Horus kills Russ and the SoH exterminates the Wolves at Trisolian

-Abaddon is present at Beta-Garmon. Horus fights on foot early on. Warmaster destroys over a hundree Loyalist Titans as well as tens of thousands of Super-Heavy Tanks. Abaddon kills Endryr Haar and countless Loyalist Knights.

-Logar and most of the Word Bearers work alongside Madai to decimate the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines. Zardu Laylak and 25k Word Bearers assist Horus in the Siege of Terra

-In Solar War, Abaddon teleports onto Kerberos one of the battle-moons of Pluto and begins to wreck havoc. He activates the self-destruct before teleporting away causing Kerberos to blow up, taking most of Sigismund's fleet with it. Aximand and Vol Bronn's fleet crushes the remnants of the IF fleet. Little Horus beheads Sigismund and Fafnir Rann. Phalanx is forced to self-destruct after Dorn leaves for Earth. Camba Diaz's fleet is overwhelmed and eviserated by the Traitors. Saduran still dies as his team boarded the Phalanx

-The appearance of Horus in Lost and the Damned causes Addus Abbaba Hive to defect to the Traitors. The LatD quickly overwhelm the defenders and the Aegis as well as the Lionel Space Port before the Death Guard deploy. Abaddon kills Shiban Khan

-Abaddon, Khârn and Zardu Laylak work together to kill Dorn. The Traitors pour into the Imperial Palace, killing the Emperor, Malcador and Valdor. Horus kills Vulkan

Traitors divide up the Imperium

[Moonreaper666]

OP: “ With the appearance of Perpetuals and Daemons technology should have accelerated to an unfathomable level, like Dark Age of Technology civilizations during the Early Bronze Age or before that”

Why?

All those chaos worshippers in the eye of chaos don’t seem to be accelerating to some super technology levels

And I take it that the OP isn’t one of those people who are deeply unhappy about how much Cawl has been able to achieve in his 10k lifespan

How... How does any of that make any sense?

Chaos worship has never sped up scientific advancement, quite the opposite in fact as its quite vehemently anti teamwork which is quite important, some of the greatest minds of 30k and pootling around the EoT achieving very little precisely because they ended up turning to chaos.

Let alone bronze age societies who lack... Everything youd need to make a spacefaring civilisation.

Knowledge. Chaos can offer the knowledge to litterally build technological wonders beyond our current understanding. Imagine if Guns and Jets were invented back in the Bronze Age

I have read plenty of time-travel novels so that is where the idea is coming from

GW/BL is lazy when it comes to many aspects of the lore. One of the reasons why Reynolds quit

[m_r_parker]

The fundamental flaw with this is that Drach'nyen isn't akin to it's 40k self during the Heresy. Reading A-D-B's 'Master of Mankind' will fill you in, I'm not going into spoiler territory in the Amicus Aedes section of the forum - if people want to spoil themselves there's threads in the The Black Library subforum, and probably written more eloquently than I could. 

[Scribe]

If I go back to ancient France, and tell people about my cell phone, its not going to be particularly relevant.

 

Your talking about raising up all of humanity, thats not how the setting works on the wider scale. At all, ever.

 

AI was a thing, it didnt go well.

Humanity was exposed to Chaos across the galaxy, it didnt go well.

 

There is historical precedent for what you are talking about, and its been written about.

 

Unity happened on Terra why? Because the world was overrun with genetic experimentation, and Chaos.

 

You are looking at some kind of happy path which is not remotely in line with the foundational aspects of the setting. 

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

You clearly don't know anything about ADHD or OCD, and clearly don't know anyone with either condition - none of this even vaguely aligns with the behaviours of those of us who *are* neurodivergent, and comparing what you consider to be 'laziness' with learning disabilities is just ableism.

[Scribe]

The sword didnt exist when you think it did.

 

The Gods are not remotely the type of entities you seem to think they are either.

[Scribe]

Let me put it this way.

 

Would you Moonreaper, consider it a worthwhile activity to raise up a colony of ants? Teach some single cell organism's what it means to build a car?

[WrathOfTheLion]

These nonsensical threads appear about once every month like a clock...

It only started showing up here on amicus after getting told to stop in the AoD subforum when the periodic one showed up the other day.