42 replies to this topic

[RandyB]

Um, excuse me. I have a question.

Where is the God of Order?

Fantasy, in the section under 'fluff derived from Moorcock', circa 88 and 90.

Not at all a thing in any real sense in 40K.

In the sense of the OP, there must be a God of Order, which is a critical flaw in the 40K setting.

Alternately, the OP is wishlisting personal preferences for the setting and asserting them as unquestioned fact.

I leave the question open as to which is accurate.

[Scribe]

The Emperor has taken the role of God of Order, Stasis, and Stagnation.

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

Wow. That is the worst fanfiction I've ever read. Someone really likes Abaddon.

[Fajita Fan]

 

 

Drach'nyen can't be blocked or parried and can smash a Titan's foot with one-hit

 

 

 

The sword didnt exist when you think it did.

 

/giggle at the irony

Edited by Fajita Fan, 14 August 2020 - 07:53 PM.

[Scribe]

I mean time is not a thing, blah blah, the warp did it, but down that path is madness.

You can't give Abby a sword that at the time wasn't a thing.

[MetalMammoth]

This thread is so much nonsense.

 

Believing the chaos gods would benevolently nurture and advance a society is like expecting a flesh eating virus to do the same.

 

For one thing, only one of the four is interested in knowledge, while simultaneously famous for telling a lie for every truth, and all of the four are extremely jealous.

If Tzeentch would ever even bother to think about teaching technology to a bunch of primitives, he'd tell them it's safe to handle toxic materials without protective gear.

He'd make you build a nuclear reactor without a containment building. He'd help you design an angle grinder without a spark catcher, with cutting wheels ever-so-slightly-not-completely-round.

Even then, it wouldn't succeed, because - as others have pointed out - chaos naturally opposes the teamwork necessary to build these things.

 

It's much easier for him to get his kicks out of, say, inciting two tribes to war and watch them mangle each other, both believing only they are his chosen ones, with their victory assured.

The victor is commanded to sacrifice his surviving comrades, then "rewarded" by daemonic posession, forever becoming a prisoner in his own mind, helpless to watch as the daemon walks into his home, wearing his skin, then does things to his loved ones we literally couldn't imagine.

Because THAT is how a chaos god rolls.

 

For another, if OP's fantasy was correct, nobody would oppose chaos. The Emperor himself wouldn't even have been created; Shamans of old earth would see all the prosperity and free technology dumped on them, and never do their suicide ritual.

Edited by MetalMammoth, 14 August 2020 - 08:09 PM.

[PeteySödes]

Im not sure how everyone is arguing that Horus with a Delorean WOULDN'T instantly win the Heresy. I mean cmon guys.

[solarisqc]

I think the chaos god was just not strong enought before humanity conquer the star.

Even if every humain on earth follow the chaos god, we are talking 2-3 milion, in 30k chaos is not as strong as in the 40k and you have thousands of world with billion of chaos workshiper. In 40 chaos is alot stronger than in the 30k era because it have alot more follower.

 

I just think the small population on Earth before humanity start to conquer the star was not enought for the Chaos God to be able to manifest deamon and the like on a scale we see in 30 of 40k.

[Slave to Darkness]

40K needs less Warp, not more.

Needs more artillery and bayonet charges... 

[chapter master 454]

 

40K needs less Warp, not more.

Needs more artillery and bayonet charges... 

 

 

-Happy Shovel Noises-

 

As for the lore, 40k is filled to the brim with oddities and various Mary and Gary Sues, Deus Ex Machinas and "all according to plan" moments. Tzeentch is the literal god of it yet within the lore the Alpha Legion seem far and above a Chaos God ability to plot (after all, I could be Alpharius, this post could be Alpharius!) while in other places it becomes odd that somehow things keep going on.

 

That is part of 40k. Part of it is the immense scale of it. It is very possible that there is multiple systems within the Imperium, both sides of the Chaos Wound that aren't even aware of what is going on. Maybe they had minor upsets or the like but ultimately don't know that Gulliman has returned, Cadia has fallen (whats a "cadia"?) or that anything has happened really. That is the scale. A scale so vast, it often puts other sci-fi in the dirt when put into a "who wins" debate because for any other Sci-Fi, loss of a Billion lives is a cornerstone of an Epoch, a defining historic event spoken of in hushed tones and used in curses most foul that only the gutter-rats use it, a moment that has a name etched into the very fabric of their culture.

For us in 40k, that was the afternoon. For as much there are those within the Imperium that make things happen, ultimately they have had to compete with such obstacles that would eclipse and end any other universe of Sci-fi yet Gulliman calls it a campaign, then notes it down as a success by the end of the year with ONLY a million losses for the Imperium, hey that's a slow year.

 

The Chaos gods themselves are paradoxical in a lot of ways and I personally like the idea/concept that the "if the Emperor had a text to Speech device" series put on them, the chaos gods are manifestations of emotions but they aren't inherently evil; they just represent the universe's collection state of mind. Khorne is wrathful and filled with bloodlust but he also represents honesty and justice, while he will murder you he will never stoop to trickery to do so. Tzeentch is a force of change and scheming, progress and thought. He is the cunning of the universe made manifest. Nurgle represents resilience and nature, growth and nuturing. I will point out that despite his gimmick of illness, notice how he maintains the health and well-being of his followers and how part of their job is to document new life (plagues and the such granted) as it comes. Slannesh is the manifestation of joy and happiness, the pleasure of living and doing.

The "Chaos" gods are only chaotic because of the universes as a whole. Their lore is even about how they wish to win "the great game" and while the codex acts like there could be a winner there never will be, as their realms are reflections of reality. For one to win, they would need to remove the very idea, concept and reality of mortals having complex emotions. Just not possible, not for the chaos gods just as it was for the Emperor.

 

Speaking of the Big E, he himself is a victim of his own hubris and inability to accept or contemplate that his creations didn't see themselves as tools, but as sons. As Children. If the Emperor ever had a great weakness, it was his detachment from his humanity and ethical morals most of us would consider. He is himself a deeply complex character who is as rife with Deus Ex Machinas as he is with characterisation that is both telling and obscure all at once. The most venerated icon of the Imperium, the Lynchpin of the 40k universe existence is one of the least understood characters on the stage. As ineffable as he is fallible.

 

If anything the most ironic point of 40k that many may realise is that the only race "at peace" within it are the Orks. Ironic that the most war-hungry race seems to be the most at peace and content within the universe.

 

If you want lore questions, one could ask what the Eldar are doing. A race concerned with their demise but yet do not recede from war (which they are perfectly able to do) proactively and focus purely on building their population again. They however fail to see their own failures and move on beyond their past glories, a core sentiment that the universe of 40k explores.

 

Is 40k lore perfect? No. I mean for goodness sake, we had power armoured marines using musical instruments like guitars as ranged weapons. Orks can literally re-fill their trukks fuel tanks just believing it is full. Would I change any of it? Likely, but then it wouldn't be 40k now...would it?

[Reclusiarch Krieg]

-In Solar War, Abaddon teleports onto Kerberos one of the battle-moons of Pluto and begins to wreck havoc. He activates the self-destruct before teleporting away causing Kerberos to blow up, taking most of Sigismund's fleet with it. Aximand and Vol Bronn's fleet crushes the remnants of the IF fleet. Little Horus beheads Sigismund and Fafnir Rann. Phalanx is forced to self-destruct after Dorn leaves for Earth. Camba Diaz's fleet is overwhelmed and eviserated by the Traitors. Saduran still dies as his team boarded the Phalanx

-Abaddon, Khârn and Zardu Laylak work together to kill Dorn. The Traitors pour into the Imperial Palace, killing the Emperor, Malcador and Valdor. Horus kills Vulkan

This is just trolling. And them's fightin' words.

[Moonreaper666]

40K needs less Warp, not more.

Needs more artillery and bayonet charges...

-Happy Shovel Noises-

As for the lore, 40k is filled to the brim with oddities and various Mary and Gary Sues, Deus Ex Machinas and "all according to plan" moments. Tzeentch is the literal god of it yet within the lore the Alpha Legion seem far and above a Chaos God ability to plot (after all, I could be Alpharius, this post could be Alpharius!) while in other places it becomes odd that somehow things keep going on.

That is part of 40k. Part of it is the immense scale of it. It is very possible that there is multiple systems within the Imperium, both sides of the Chaos Wound that aren't even aware of what is going on. Maybe they had minor upsets or the like but ultimately don't know that Gulliman has returned, Cadia has fallen (whats a "cadia"?) or that anything has happened really. That is the scale. A scale so vast, it often puts other sci-fi in the dirt when put into a "who wins" debate because for any other Sci-Fi, loss of a Billion lives is a cornerstone of an Epoch, a defining historic event spoken of in hushed tones and used in curses most foul that only the gutter-rats use it, a moment that has a name etched into the very fabric of their culture.
For us in 40k, that was the afternoon. For as much there are those within the Imperium that make things happen, ultimately they have had to compete with such obstacles that would eclipse and end any other universe of Sci-fi yet Gulliman calls it a campaign, then notes it down as a success by the end of the year with ONLY a million losses for the Imperium, hey that's a slow year.

The Chaos gods themselves are paradoxical in a lot of ways and I personally like the idea/concept that the "if the Emperor had a text to Speech device" series put on them, the chaos gods are manifestations of emotions but they aren't inherently evil; they just represent the universe's collection state of mind. Khorne is wrathful and filled with bloodlust but he also represents honesty and justice, while he will murder you he will never stoop to trickery to do so. Tzeentch is a force of change and scheming, progress and thought. He is the cunning of the universe made manifest. Nurgle represents resilience and nature, growth and nuturing. I will point out that despite his gimmick of illness, notice how he maintains the health and well-being of his followers and how part of their job is to document new life (plagues and the such granted) as it comes. Slannesh is the manifestation of joy and happiness, the pleasure of living and doing.
The "Chaos" gods are only chaotic because of the universes as a whole. Their lore is even about how they wish to win "the great game" and while the codex acts like there could be a winner there never will be, as their realms are reflections of reality. For one to win, they would need to remove the very idea, concept and reality of mortals having complex emotions. Just not possible, not for the chaos gods just as it was for the Emperor.

Speaking of the Big E, he himself is a victim of his own hubris and inability to accept or contemplate that his creations didn't see themselves as tools, but as sons. As Children. If the Emperor ever had a great weakness, it was his detachment from his humanity and ethical morals most of us would consider. He is himself a deeply complex character who is as rife with Deus Ex Machinas as he is with characterisation that is both telling and obscure all at once. The most venerated icon of the Imperium, the Lynchpin of the 40k universe existence is one of the least understood characters on the stage. As ineffable as he is fallible.

If anything the most ironic point of 40k that many may realise is that the only race "at peace" within it are the Orks. Ironic that the most war-hungry race seems to be the most at peace and content within the universe.

If you want lore questions, one could ask what the Eldar are doing. A race concerned with their demise but yet do not recede from war (which they are perfectly able to do) proactively and focus purely on building their population again. They however fail to see their own failures and move on beyond their past glories, a core sentiment that the universe of 40k explores.

Is 40k lore perfect? No. I mean for goodness sake, we had power armoured marines using musical instruments like guitars as ranged weapons. Orks can literally re-fill their trukks fuel tanks just believing it is full. Would I change any of it? Likely, but then it wouldn't be 40k now...would it?

Um, the Eldar are actively hunted by the other factions so they tend to strike first to surprise the enemy. Ulthwe is stuck right next to the Eye of Terror. They are trying to move beyond their past, at least those of the Ynnari, but it results in more bloodshed. Despite their precog they are in a very tight spot

Actually, Orks cannot just think fuel out of thin air. Their machines still need fuel, ammo and wires but it doesn't have to be connected properly. Ork powers allow then to bypass many (but not all) complications in building stuff. Orks are the anti-OSHA faction. However, their magic-fix-it has many, many limits

The Emperor could have spent a few hours to sort out Angron and Nuceria in a more positive way but he didn't

Khorne can unleash blood-tides in any planet affected by the Warp. He did it once in the lore killing every human and banishing every Nurgle Daemon on the planet but sparing his own Daemons and the Loyalist Space Marines

Xyn'goran is an Ancient Daemon Prince of Tzeentch who makes the Hrud species look like children when he uses his time-bending powers. Abaddon had to use wits to beat him and force him to give Abby some of his powers

All Lords of Change, including powerful ones like Kairos, can only be beaten if Tzeentch allows it. The Changer of Ways allowed Lion to banish Kairos instead of having the latter kill the former and the entire Dark Angels Legion. No Dark Angels means that Horus wins

Let me put it this way.

Would you Moonreaper, consider it a worthwhile activity to raise up a colony of ants? Teach some single cell organism's what it means to build a car?

If those ants were the source of my nourishment and amusement, then yeah dude!

By spreading and multiplying the 'ants' that is humanity much, much earlier the Chaos Gods actually become much stronger much faster. Humanity feeds Chaos like no other, even the Eldar can't feed Slaanesh as much especially those that renounce pleasure.

Instead of just having 10k years of intergalactic unending war, backstabbing, disease and decadence why not 43k years of Multiversal unending war, backstabbing, disease and decadence. It's not just humanity but other species as well. The ants analogy actually fits the various factions of Wh40k. The more they spread the more they breed, fight and kill each other much to the Dark Gods' delight

The most successful diseases are not those that kill the host very quickly but those that rarely do. The latter like the common flu adapt like crazy but are hard to vaccinate against

The Chaos Gods (and maybe certain gods worship in Real Life) are like farmers. Humans and Xenos are like cattle

In Saturnine

Spoiler

The Emperor wanted to accelerate humanity both physically and technologically. He could have easily sent Ancient Sumerians onto space.

Perpetuals are living data-banks of memory and can perform experiments forever. They are going to learn how to make everything much, much faster. And the Emperor is much, much better at being a scientist than all the other Perpetuals combined

[smileyjim]

It would explain a lot of their behaviour. It would explain why beings that can wipe out everyone on a planet on a whim do the bare minimum to plan and enact the Heresy
It's not just me. Josh Reynolds compares the gods to children on their fickle attention
Just giving Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy would have allowed Horus an easy win:
-Abaddon shortens Isstvan III from 6 months to several weeks. He kills Loken and Morturg derailing the Knights-Errants/Grey Knights storyline. Drach'nyen can't be blocked or parried and can smash a Titan's foot with one-hit. Traitors suffer fewer casualties and harvest geneseed from the dead
-Abaddon decimates the Raven Guard at Drop Site Massacre. A few thousand RG dead at his hand including Sharrowkyn, Soukhonou, Nev brothers and Gherith Arendi. Shattered Legions much weaker and much less effective in the Heresy. Fabius Bile's Ehanced Warriors butcher Corax and the Raven Guard resulting in the RG sitting out the war. Another Loyalist group has to take care of Bile and his Terrata, taking heavy casualties in the process
(More dead Loyalist = Less dead Traitors + More Loyalist geneseed to harvest)
-Abaddon wipes out the Knight-Errants on the Veneful Spirit before going on a rampage against the Space Wolves. Because there were too many Sons of Horus, Russ is wounded before he fights Horus. Horus kills Russ and the SoH exterminates the Wolves at Trisolian
-Abaddon is present at Beta-Garmon. Horus fights on foot early on. Warmaster destroys over a hundree Loyalist Titans as well as tens of thousands of Super-Heavy Tanks. Abaddon kills Endryr Haar and countless Loyalist Knights.
-Logar and most of the Word Bearers work alongside Madai to decimate the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines. Zardu Laylak and 25k Word Bearers assist Horus in the Siege of Terra
-In Solar War, Abaddon teleports onto Kerberos one of the battle-moons of Pluto and begins to wreck havoc. He activates the self-destruct before teleporting away causing Kerberos to blow up, taking most of Sigismund's fleet with it. Aximand and Vol Bronn's fleet crushes the remnants of the IF fleet. Little Horus beheads Sigismund and Fafnir Rann. Phalanx is forced to self-destruct after Dorn leaves for Earth. Camba Diaz's fleet is overwhelmed and eviserated by the Traitors. Saduran still dies as his team boarded the Phalanx
-The appearance of Horus in Lost and the Damned causes Addus Abbaba Hive to defect to the Traitors. The LatD quickly overwhelm the defenders and the Aegis as well as the Lionel Space Port before the Death Guard deploy. Abaddon kills Shiban Khan
-Abaddon, Khârn and Zardu Laylak work together to kill Dorn. The Traitors pour into the Imperial Palace, killing the Emperor, Malcador and Valdor. Horus kills Vulkan
Traitors divide up the Imperium

They where never meant to win the heresy. Chaos has far more purchase post heresy than pre. For all we know chaos wants the emperor to become a full god so they can kill him permanently.

[Moonreaper666]

It would explain a lot of their behaviour. It would explain why beings that can wipe out everyone on a planet on a whim do the bare minimum to plan and enact the Heresy
It's not just me. Josh Reynolds compares the gods to children on their fickle attention
Just giving Drach'nyen to Abaddon at the start of the Heresy would have allowed Horus an easy win:
-Abaddon shortens Isstvan III from 6 months to several weeks. He kills Loken and Morturg derailing the Knights-Errants/Grey Knights storyline. Drach'nyen can't be blocked or parried and can smash a Titan's foot with one-hit. Traitors suffer fewer casualties and harvest geneseed from the dead
-Abaddon decimates the Raven Guard at Drop Site Massacre. A few thousand RG dead at his hand including Sharrowkyn, Soukhonou, Nev brothers and Gherith Arendi. Shattered Legions much weaker and much less effective in the Heresy. Fabius Bile's Ehanced Warriors butcher Corax and the Raven Guard resulting in the RG sitting out the war. Another Loyalist group has to take care of Bile and his Terrata, taking heavy casualties in the process
(More dead Loyalist = Less dead Traitors + More Loyalist geneseed to harvest)
-Abaddon wipes out the Knight-Errants on the Veneful Spirit before going on a rampage against the Space Wolves. Because there were too many Sons of Horus, Russ is wounded before he fights Horus. Horus kills Russ and the SoH exterminates the Wolves at Trisolian
-Abaddon is present at Beta-Garmon. Horus fights on foot early on. Warmaster destroys over a hundree Loyalist Titans as well as tens of thousands of Super-Heavy Tanks. Abaddon kills Endryr Haar and countless Loyalist Knights.
-Logar and most of the Word Bearers work alongside Madai to decimate the Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Ultramarines. Zardu Laylak and 25k Word Bearers assist Horus in the Siege of Terra
-In Solar War, Abaddon teleports onto Kerberos one of the battle-moons of Pluto and begins to wreck havoc. He activates the self-destruct before teleporting away causing Kerberos to blow up, taking most of Sigismund's fleet with it. Aximand and Vol Bronn's fleet crushes the remnants of the IF fleet. Little Horus beheads Sigismund and Fafnir Rann. Phalanx is forced to self-destruct after Dorn leaves for Earth. Camba Diaz's fleet is overwhelmed and eviserated by the Traitors. Saduran still dies as his team boarded the Phalanx
-The appearance of Horus in Lost and the Damned causes Addus Abbaba Hive to defect to the Traitors. The LatD quickly overwhelm the defenders and the Aegis as well as the Lionel Space Port before the Death Guard deploy. Abaddon kills Shiban Khan
-Abaddon, Khârn and Zardu Laylak work together to kill Dorn. The Traitors pour into the Imperial Palace, killing the Emperor, Malcador and Valdor. Horus kills Vulkan
Traitors divide up the Imperium

They where never meant to win the heresy. Chaos has far more purchase post heresy than pre. For all we know chaos wants the emperor to become a full god so they can kill him permanently.

Um, the Emperor can die the same way Vulkan did through Fulgurite. Perpetuals die during the Heresy or lose their immortality

Malcador and Oll Perrson are both Perpetuals yet they died. Had Drach'nyen been given Fulgurite he would have killed the Emperor in the novel Master of Mankind!

The Traitors would have fought each other had they won the Heresy. Especially if Horus were to die right after perma-killing the Emperor. Chaos Gods have the kill-switch on anyone that follows them

[RandyB]

This thread should be on the Fan Fiction board.

[Raktra]

... Vulkan isn’t dead. And Pious was basically *punched in the soul by four gods*, of course he bloody died.

[Uberlord Gendo]

Vulkan Lives!

[Moonreaper666]

Vulkan Lives!

But is he still immortal or will his next death be his last?

It would be interesting to see Guilliman's reaction when he knows about the Beast Orks and Vulkan