Are purifiers good now?

[Skywrath]

With the data-mined changes to the old space marines getting 2W, that would apply to the purifers, no doubt. However, I had a game yesterday against a Tyranid player, who (cheerfully I might add), informed me, that super-smites (according to the warhammer app) do not exist for GK's. So maximum damage we can do is 2W, unfortunately. 

 

Cue the purifiers! Their smite damage is D6, and with a brother captain and a VLR for delivery, those 6" smites might very well become useful. Not only that, but they now have 2W each. So the question is this, with the apparent "death" of paladins, and the super-smite death will we finally see the return of purifiers in competitive lists?

 

Discuss.

[Captain Coolpants]

Well, we have NEVER had super smites. The only buff we had was not getting progressively harder to cast by 1, with each smite attempt, which is whats gone.

 

So really purifiers at the moment, still have the exact same disadvantages they had before, because our other units, also got the plus 1 wound.

 

Also at the moment, cleansing flame is just an ability that effects the smite power for purifiers, its not currently its own power like it used to be. So unfortunately, even they get progressively harder to cast with each smite attempt, army wide.

Edited August 16, 2020 by Captain Coolpants

[Skywrath]

See, that's the thing that I don't understand. GK's are supposed to be the strongest psykers of the Imperium and with enough of a margin that we eat other astartes psykers for breakfast. Why would we suddenly NOT have super-smites? In fact, we very well should have them, and they should be going off at a 10+ to reflect our psychic affinity. I know we are one of the three armies that can actually smite spam, but c'mon? That fact doesn't do our lore justice. It makes us seem like we are psykers with our training wheels on. 

 

Onto the topic of purifiers - Contrary to before, they actually can survive a round of shooting now, especially with the land raider and the BC smite extension. Imagine those, with the smite tide, and we have a theoretical of 7 damage smites (max 6+1). Equip them with swords, or if points permitting demon hammers, and we might even give the Blood Angels a run for their melee aggression (Blood Angels players that read this, please don't kill me). Not only that, but with the Paladin Ancient/BC nearby, sanctuary, untainted and unbowed strategem, we have something that is almost as durable as paladins (yes, I know they have one less wound, but hey). What's even better is it is 1CP, compared to the 3CP of transhuman physiology that we would dump on our paladins. So points wise, CP wise, and damage wise, these guys now outshine (pun not intended) Paladins.

 

Give them vortex of doom, or even hammerhand, and these guys will be mean lean killing machines, while the VLR next to them will be incinerating everything in their path. Not to mention there are ways around the smite spam increase, such as the Sanctic Shard and Empyric Channeling if you REALLY want to get it off.

 

I see this is actually the next best thing, but as always, open to suggestions and counter-arguments. 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Skywrath

[Biscuittzz]

We've never had super smites so there's not much to go on about that unless we start wishlisting.

 

Paladins aren't exactly 'dead', we probably won't see the double paladin bomb any more but we'll still see at least one unit in most lists - possibly maxed out.

 

Purifiers still suffer from all the problems they've had before. Two wounds helps but I don't think it'll get them there. My counter argument would be that in trying to compare purifiers to paladins you also need to run a land raider, an ancient and a BC. Just too much to make one unit work - also, never look at max damage when doing theories, you're just setting yourself up for the disappointment. So I'd take D6 smites at the average of 3.5. Paladins are able to be buffed up and sent on there way.

[Skywrath]

Thanks for the response!

 

That's what I meant by the death of the paladins - that exact reasoning. The question with them is whether we take psilencers now, over psycannons but eh, story for another time.

 

With the other options to run purifiers, here is my counter-argument. Land Raiders are now good because they can fire while in combat. Having a Redeemer in melee just adds a cherry on top (don't forget they still auto-hit at potential 12 attacks (D6 each), S6, -2AP, D2 flat!). Running a BC, unfortunately for that list is also mandatory. Not the Ancient however, that was there for 2 attacks and +1 on the charge. That was for the extra spiciness. Realistically, there is only just the two units you have to take, and one of those can actually pull it's weight. Also with the smites, if we are in smite tide, that is 4.5 wounds (with the extra one). Which is useful for taking out things such as eradicators (1 and a half, assuming a squad of three), which you will be seeing a lot more of. However, the point still stands that to sustain purifiers is much more cheaper CP wise than Paladins, and they can be equipped the same way with warding staves and sanctuary (so an effective 3+ invuln). Which in turn frees up more CP for other shenanigans, and being cheaper CP wise. 

 

Side-note: I don't expect Purifers will become as expensive as paladins, even with the 20% point increase with 2W (assuming that's going to happen), but those are extra points you could put on things such as multi-meltas on the VLR, or a hammer on a character! 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Skywrath

[L30n1d4s]

Paladins may not be dead yet... if they follow the trend of other Terminators (which gain +1W to have 3W), then they may go up to 4W....if that is the case, then suddenly they are back in business again, I think!

[Icosiel]

Onto the topic of purifiers - Contrary to before, they actually can survive a round of shooting now, especially with the land raider and the BC smite extension. Imagine those, with the smite tide, and we have a theoretical of 7 damage smites (max 6+1).

 

One thing that's important to note here: Purifiers don't get +1 damage to smite in Tide of Escalation. ToE specifies that a unit has to have the Rites of Banishment ability to receive the boost in damage, and Purifiers don't. Their special Smite is called Purifying Flame. So they can't benefit from ToE.

 

I think theorycrafting about 2-wound Purifiers might be a little premature at the moment. At the very earliest, we're not going to see an increase in our wounds until October. Even then we might not get the update until our 9th ed Codex is released, and it will surely be accompanied by a points increase. For all we know, PAGK will become more expensive than they are worth.

 

Also, what do you mean by "the apparent 'death' of Paladins?" I've used them in all of my 9th edition games so far and they have remained unwavering colossi of destruction.

[Skywrath]

 

Onto the topic of purifiers - Contrary to before, they actually can survive a round of shooting now, especially with the land raider and the BC smite extension. Imagine those, with the smite tide, and we have a theoretical of 7 damage smites (max 6+1).

 

One thing that's important to note here: Purifiers don't get +1 damage to smite in Tide of Escalation. ToE specifies that a unit has to have the Rites of Banishment ability to receive the boost in damage, and Purifiers don't. Their special Smite is called Purifying Flame. So they can't benefit from ToE.

 

I think theorycrafting about 2-wound Purifiers might be a little premature at the moment. At the very earliest, we're not going to see an increase in our wounds until October. Even then we might not get the update until our 9th ed Codex is released, and it will surely be accompanied by a points increase. For all we know, PAGK will become more expensive than they are worth.

 

Also, what do you mean by "the apparent 'death' of Paladins?" I've used them in all of my 9th edition games so far and they have remained unwavering colossi of destruction.

 

Derp, missed that detail, thanks for pointing that out. 

 

See my earlier response to Biscuttz about the "death" of paladins. Just the current flavour of 9th is about objectives > steamrolling opponents from the board. So now instead of dumping about 300 points on a paladin blob, we might have to take units to reinforce that mentality.

[Icosiel]

True. But also Paladins are exceptional at removing chaff from the table. Pop 2 CP and you've got 40 heavy bolter shots that'll take out most any Troop option.

[Corvus Fortis]

 apparent "death" of paladins

 

 

Excuse me? Paladins are anything but dead. They are the only unit, that can survive on objective in the open and that's essential in 9th. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

As an aside, Skywrath mentioned "death" of paladins and "super smite". These are common terms and use a literary device called "hyperbole", which is the spirit I believe he was using them.

 

I believe we can now move on from this somewhat off topic portion of the conversation and go back to Purifiers.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[Skywrath]

As an aside, Skywrath mentioned "death" of paladins and "super smite". These are common terms and use a literary device called "hyperbole", which is the spirit I believe he was using them.

 

I believe we can now move on from this somewhat off topic portion of the conversation and go back to Purifiers.

 

That. 

[Brother Lunkhead]

The original question still stands. Are Purifiers good? Not are the great, or essential, or optimal, but are they good Can they be made effective....

• in competitive play?
• in casual play?
• in anything in between?
• against specific armies?

.... and if so, how? If not, why not?  As I've only been a casual player of Grey Knights and have only a small allied contingent (currently building a full army) I'm very interested to see everyone's input on this

Edited August 18, 2020 by Brother Lunkhead

[SpiritFox22]

Honestly I think Purifiers are about the same as before.  With the 2W buff then they're a lot more viable than before if you compare them to Paladins.  It's 10W for 100pts vs 9W for 150pts min and 20W for 200pts vs 30W for 500pts max.  Though Purifiers main issue is Purifiying Flame being only 3in or if they're within Aura Range of BC 6in.  They're definitely not a competitive option for the elite slot, as Paladins, Apothecaries, and Dreads all sit in the Elite slot too and they're all MUCH harder to shift for their points sink or fill holes which the Purifiers don't.

 

The only real way I can see them being viable in a competitive sense is as a suicide unit / distraction carnifex, which for a GK army is a terrible idea.  Otherwise they're just Strike squads with a harder to use smite.

Edited August 19, 2020 by SpiritFox22

[Corvus Fortis]

 It's 10W for 100pts vs 9W for 150pts min and 20W for 200pts vs 30W for 500pts max.

 

 

You are comparing paladins to purifiers as if nothing changed, but purifiers gained a second wounds. They will definitely get a price hike (2-4 additional points) while paladins may get additional wound too. Besides, our rules may be reworked completely and purifying flame may change. So I see no point in discussing viability of 2w purifiers now. We simply don't have the full picture.

 

As for now - purifiers suffer from all the problems they did before. New edition gave them nothing. They simply cannot get in range to be dangerous. And if you set up them to actually get there, it is simply not worth it. 3d6 MW could sound cool, but you will reach something important by turn 3 at best, unless opponent is completely unaware of what they can do.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Corvus Fortis

[WAR]

As for now - purifiers suffer from all the problems they did before. New edition gave them nothing. They simply cannot get in range to be dangerous. And if you set up them to actually get there, it is simply not worth it. 3d6 MW could sound cool, but you will reach something important by turn 3 at best, unless opponent is completely unaware of what they can do.

/\ This

 

A lot has to change for purifiers to be viable imho and that means more than 1 wd increase. Like others have said they are in a slot that is heavily congested and better options.

 

With that said I’m still going to build a 8 man squad of them and a Mk IIb land raider for them to ride in but until they get their codex they are on the back burner.

[SpiritFox22]

 

It's 10W for 100pts vs 9W for 150pts min and 20W for 200pts vs 30W for 500pts max.

 

You are comparing paladins to purifiers as if nothing changed, but purifiers gained a second wounds. They will definitely get a price hike (2-4 additional points) while paladins may get additional wound too. Besides, our rules may be reworked completely and purifying flame may change. So I see no point in discussing viability of 2w purifiers now. We simply don't have the full picture.

True Paladins MAY be getting another wound to differentiate from normal Terminators, but we do know Purifiers are getting the buff. Even if it's a 2-5pts increase that's still a much cheaper unit wound wise. They're still the "worst" option for the Elite slot, but less so with said tweak. And paladins are really the closest thing to compare them to hence why I did so.

 

As for now - purifiers suffer from all the problems they did before. New edition gave them nothing. They simply cannot get in range to be dangerous. And if you set up them to actually get there, it is simply not worth it. 3d6 MW could sound cool, but you will reach something important by turn 3 at best, unless opponent is completely unaware of what they can do.

I'm definitely not disagreeing purifying flame is garbage as it is now and requires too much to be useful.

[RandyB]

 

 

It's 10W for 100pts vs 9W for 150pts min and 20W for 200pts vs 30W for 500pts max.

 

You are comparing paladins to purifiers as if nothing changed, but purifiers gained a second wounds. They will definitely get a price hike (2-4 additional points) while paladins may get additional wound too. Besides, our rules may be reworked completely and purifying flame may change. So I see no point in discussing viability of 2w purifiers now. We simply don't have the full picture.

True Paladins MAY be getting another wound to differentiate from normal Terminators, but we do know Purifiers are getting the buff. Even if it's a 2-5pts increase that's still a much cheaper unit wound wise. They're still the "worst" option for the Elite slot, but less so with said tweak. And paladins are really the closest thing to compare them to hence why I did so.

 

As for now - purifiers suffer from all the problems they did before. New edition gave them nothing. They simply cannot get in range to be dangerous. And if you set up them to actually get there, it is simply not worth it. 3d6 MW could sound cool, but you will reach something important by turn 3 at best, unless opponent is completely unaware of what they can do.

I'm definitely not disagreeing purifying flame is garbage as it is now and requires too much to be useful.

How much effect would there be if purifiers got the full veteran statline?

 

Note that "purifiers get the veteran statline" is pure speculation, and probably crosses the line into wishlisting. I'm just curious about what difference it would make.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

How much effect would there be if purifiers got the full veteran statline?

 

Note that "purifiers get the veteran statline" is pure speculation, and probably crosses the line into wishlisting. I'm just curious about what difference it would make.

 

 

Speculation is fine and so is wish listing so long as it stays within the realms of the realistic and possible. Given these boundaries, how would you make Purifiers worthy of being an elite choice in your GK armies?

[RandyB]

 

 

How much effect would there be if purifiers got the full veteran statline?

 

Note that "purifiers get the veteran statline" is pure speculation, and probably crosses the line into wishlisting. I'm just curious about what difference it would make.

 

Speculation is fine and so is wish listing so long as it stays within the realms of the realistic and possible. Given these boundaries, how would you make Purifiers worthy of being an elite choice in your GK armies?

That is the heart of my question. Would the veteran statline make enough difference for purifiers? I don't know. I'm new to the faction.

[Brother Lunkhead]

 

 

How much effect would there be if purifiers got the full veteran statline?

 

Note that "purifiers get the veteran statline" is pure speculation, and probably crosses the line into wishlisting. I'm just curious about what difference it would make.

Speculation is fine and so is wish listing so long as it stays within the realms of the realistic and possible. Given these boundaries, how would you make Purifiers worthy of being an elite choice in your GK armies?

That is the heart of my question. Would the veteran statline make enough difference for purifiers? I don't know. I'm new to the faction.

 

 

Don't let being new to the GK's stop you..... speculate away Brother

[SpiritFox22]

Honestly it wouldn't do much. Company Vets in the SM Codex only boasts 1 more attack base.

 

Personally I think Purifiers Smite needs to get buffed to 6" range base and either give them the same base attacks as Paladins or a base 6+ invulnerable save.

 

Both would benefit them as a unit, though one pushes them more towards a suicide unit that the opponent cant ignore while the invuln makes them marginally harder to shift. If it wasn't heavily stepping on a Librarians toes I'd say give them 2 powers/casts if the unit is maxed. You'd see them played I purely for support spam.

[WAR]

+1 Attack and +1 Leadership stat wise

 

I honestly feel their power range should be increased or have it increased by Brotherhood Champion and not the Brotherhood Captain. This will allow them to be transported in a razorback or rhino to get into range, instead of Land Raider or Storm Raven,  this will also makes Castellan Crowe and his craptasic sword worth fielding, imho.

[Skywrath]

Honestly it wouldn't do much. Company Vets in the SM Codex only boasts 1 more attack base.

 

Personally I think Purifiers Smite needs to get buffed to 6" range base and either give them the same base attacks as Paladins or a base 6+ invulnerable save.

 

Both would benefit them as a unit, though one pushes them more towards a suicide unit that the opponent cant ignore while the invuln makes them marginally harder to shift. If it wasn't heavily stepping on a Librarians toes I'd say give them 2 powers/casts if the unit is maxed. You'd see them played I purely for support spam.

 

I'd hold off on giving them the same number of attacks as paladins, but 6" range, and that one extra attack to keep them in line with veterans, definitely! The Paladins were always the martial might of our chapter, while the Purifiers were the paragons of spiritual might. Giving them a 6+ invuln save is a bit.. lacklustre I suppose? We have Sanctuary, which is a better version, and also the Untainted and Unbowed Stratagem, which gives them an effective 3+ (with Sanctuary on top). That should be reflected in-game, with the suggestions you posted. Upvoted! 

 

+1 Attack and +1 Leadership stat wise

 

I honestly feel their power range should be increased or have it increased by Brotherhood Champion and not the Brotherhood Captain. This will allow them to be transported in a razorback or rhino to get into range, instead of Land Raider or Storm Raven,  this will also makes Castellan Crowe and his craptasic sword worth fielding, imho.

 

Why not give purifiers psychic locus then, that would be an interesting idea, again to reflect their spiritual might. Still baffled on why the Brotherhood Champion is a HQ choice now..

[WAR]

He has been a hq all of 7th edition to current edition