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Non-Emperor's Children noise marines


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#1
Marshal Paul

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Has anybody had any joy using noise marines as an Elites choice in a non Emperor's Children Legion?

I have a rather mixed project in the works (miniature restaritis!) and have about 20 converted noise marines, however I am not entirely sold on Emperor's Children at the moment. I have tried finding them interesting, I just can't get there.

So before Fabius is hired to start chopping some marines for the next conversion, how are noise marines doing for you in any other legion?

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#2
Marshal Loss

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I've used Noise Marines at times in both my Word Bearers & Emperor's Children armies, finding them average in the former and great in the latter. They're a solid choice, but the reason why they're so brilliant in an EC force is 1) they're troops, which is a benefit worth stressing, and 2) you get access to Excruciating Frequencies. In non-EC armies I've found them to be worse in terms of bang for your buck than other popular shooting units (e.g. Terminators, Obliterators, Havocs) against which they are forced to compete when left in an elites slot.


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#3
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I've yet to use them, but I'm thinking they could have their use in certain armies.

 

Currently, my issue is trying to figure out how to put them into my Night Lords. Specifically, how to make their aesthetics "match" the Night Lords :lol:



#4
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I've yet to use them, but I'm thinking they could have their use in certain armies.

 

Currently, my issue is trying to figure out how to put them into my Night Lords. Specifically, how to make their aesthetics "match" the Night Lords laugh.png

Run them as terror troops/volkites.


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#5
Gederas

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I've yet to use them, but I'm thinking they could have their use in certain armies.

 

Currently, my issue is trying to figure out how to put them into my Night Lords. Specifically, how to make their aesthetics "match" the Night Lords laugh.png

Run them as terror troops/volkites.

Oh no, I know exactly how they'll be run (as Terror Squads that went well beyond what is "sane" for even Night Lords), I was being literal when I said aesthetics.

 

As in: I have no idea how to model them :lol: I'm thinking of possibly mixing the FW Kakophoni with the new Chaos Marines kit (or possibly Havocs).



#6
Are Verlo

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Mine are painted as EC, but I have tried them as AL.
It’s all about what stratagems the legions offer.
The EC’s frequencies is an A+ damage strat, but the AL offers ambush, forewards operatives, conceal and renacent infiltaton.

The AL does not match the damage potential of the EC, but offer some tactical options that might be worth it.
In my eyes the EC are 10/10 (strat, troops and remnant relic) and the AL a good second with 8/10

#7
Lucerne

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I've yet to use them, but I'm thinking they could have their use in certain armies.

 

Currently, my issue is trying to figure out how to put them into my Night Lords. Specifically, how to make their aesthetics "match" the Night Lords laugh.png

Run them as terror troops/volkites.

Oh no, I know exactly how they'll be run (as Terror Squads that went well beyond what is "sane" for even Night Lords), I was being literal when I said aesthetics.

 

As in: I have no idea how to model them laugh.png I'm thinking of possibly mixing the FW Kakophoni with the new Chaos Marines kit (or possibly Havocs).

 

Volkite models, terror-markings, flayed flesh as a shared aesthetic, leering daemonic loud-hailers...I'd skip the Kakiphoni entirely in favor of doing your own spin.


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#8
BrainFireBob

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I've used Noise Marines at times in both my Word Bearers & Emperor's Children armies, finding them average in the former and great in the latter. They're a solid choice, but the reason why they're so brilliant in an EC force is 1) they're troops, which is a benefit worth stressing, and 2) you get access to Excruciating Frequencies. In non-EC armies I've found them to be worse in terms of bang for your buck than other popular shooting units (e.g. Terminators, Obliterators, Havocs) against which they are forced to compete when left in an elites slot.


Footslogging in BL with the big A-man seems decent on paper.

#9
Brom MKIV

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Yes I used them for a little while in my XX legion army before conceal was a thing.. iirc. 10 with 2 blastmasters  and a chainaxe as a pseudo havoc unit camped, sometimes with support from psych and strats. Honestly I wanted to use my cacophony models but they actually performed really well. Lots of ablatives and cover ignoring missiles ended up with some good match ups. 

 

Anyway now days I have a hard time seeing the value in them outside of a large squad in EC. Note that I also tend to take an EC detachment for NM troops. I've tried various builds but found more than 1 unit isn't nearly as good. And also that msu is basically like running csm. 

 

Tldr; I would suggest EC or avoid them currently. I have hopes that each cult unit will get a "key" strat included in the next CSM dex. For example excruciating frequencies would be the noise marine key strat. This would enable them to be used as an elite choice and discourage souping even more. 


Edited by Brom MKIV, 16 August 2020 - 07:41 PM.

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#10
Marshal Loss

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Wouldn't mind cult units getting a dedicated stratagem (although there are already god-specific stratagems which is an easy avenue for expansion), but I'd be categorically against anything like EF being taken from EC and given to everybody else. At the moment EC run Noise Marines the best and that's the way it should be


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#11
Brom MKIV

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While I agree EC should have the best NM it also creates an issue for heretics in general.

Cult troops are not very appealing except from their specific legion so they're kinda dead entry's, at least currently. I don't feel EF would make EC less appealing. It would just be a taste of the full legion benefits and strats. Especially considering soup took a major hit.

 

OR maybe GW just makes them solid in another manner. Even giving cult troops obsec would do it. You don't get any of the bennies but they are always obsec. And if taken in their legion also take up troops slots. Hmm


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#12
Marshal Loss

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 I don't feel EF would make EC less appealing.

 

See, I do: when you cut things down to the core, EC actually get only a handful of ways to to differentiate their Noise Marines from those of other Legions:

 

  1. Selecting them as troops (which while a huge benefit is simply a reflection of the fact that they are far more common in EC armies for obvious reasons)
  2. Excruciating Frequencies
  3. The Dark Apostle relic (Remnant)

 

Give #2 to all CSM armies and suddenly the only benefits EC get over everybody else are having NM as troops and a relic that people may or may not choose to use. Excruciating Frequencies should be theirs and theirs alone, because if you take it away do they really have the best Noise Marines? No, they really don't! They just have the most.

 

I do think you're correct in noting that cult marines are far less appealing to normal armies these days than they used to be, but that is going to be an inevitable consequence of an era in which we are encouraged to think in terms of mono-Legion forces, and I'd rather units like Berzerkers and Plague Marines be miles better in their respective Legions than a scenario in which they are better in e.g. the Black Legion or the Alpha Legion. Gone are the days where you could have Ahriman leading your renegade warband (without resorting to detachment shenanigans). It's just the way things are now. Lose some, win some.

 

Obsec might be a good fix (although not super logical for e.g. Berzerkers), or even just expanding the range of god-specific stratagems in the vanilla CSM book. But I don't see the current scenario as a major issue.


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#13
Brom MKIV

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Yea 1 and 2 are huge when combined.

My point was as long as the current system of legion specific strats exists it will promote soup or discourage cult troops for the majority of legions to make their particular legion feel more unique. Which seems unnecessarily restrictive. NM for example are bad without troops status or their strat.

Fortunately I'm someone who views unit entries as rules more than their actual fluff. Or rather rules create a picture for me that may fit into my own fluff. This perspective I feel better enables different ways to represent my models.
So for example Noise marines to me are actually csm special forces not rock stars with :cussty paintjobs.
My NM are forgeworld mkIV recon squads with alpha legion should pads and helmets and silenced weapons. My blastmasters are aftermarket sniper rifles. So the name "noise marine" is ironic since mine are a kill team that make no sounds.

I'll bring another legion just to access their stuff and model it how I please. But some of my friends have a sort of.. loyalty to their legions RULES and fluff as written. They wanna use plagues or rubrics or noise marines but won't soup to make them good.

For them it's a drawback.
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#14
Marshal Loss

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I appreciate that, but do not believe your point is at all factual. The current system of Legion rules do not actually discourage cult troops for "the majority of the Legions", because they don't make cult troops worse in those Legions; they simply make them better in a select few by incentivizing their selection. And as for soup, the advent of 9th edition has brought concrete downsides for those who choose to maximize their lists in that fashion. If you want to get the best Noise Marines you need to pay CP to take an EC detachment now. That isn't encouraging soup at all. In fact, it's the opposite. As an EC player I have no issue with that whatsoever.

 

All the power to your interpretation. But you're missing my point and shuffling in a different direction because your original post advocated taking something away from EC and giving it to all Legions, which is what I took issue with, not that you might wish for cult units to get a little stronger. I appreciate that was likely just an example, albeit one which would swing the pendulum too far n the other direction. Take your own Legion, the AL, which has been the most competitive choice for c. 3 years now. The AL have a large range of stratagems that impact a wide range of units. None are aimed at a particular themed unit. If you move something like Excruciating Frequencies from EC to all then the Alpha Legion, hands down, have the best Noise Marines in the game. That would be silly. But as currently written you can use your own perks to play Noise Marines in a way that other Legions cannot while, conversely, the EC have stratagems that impact a smaller range of units in a more narrow fashion. That is appropriate.

 

Should all Legions have access to the WB Revered Hosts stratagem? No. Should all Legions have access to the IW Rampant Technovirus stratagem? No. The answer here is clearly not to take something away from EC and give it to everybody else for the reasons I have outlined above. Don't forget we already have the big +1W shenanigans coming in the future; perhaps that alone combined with a not-unreasonable points increase will make cult units more viable in other Legions when combined with their already innate bonuses, or they may receive other changes to their stats or weapons or rules similar to what we are seeing with loyalist SM & Necrons.

 

As for your friends, uhhh....none of the cult units are actually bad though. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean. If they're so desperate to use cult units but refuse to do so just because another army might do it slightly better, then that's just too bad for them. I do not understand how being "loyal" to your Legion's lore stops you from using a unit just because somebody else does it better. If e.g. a Black Legion player refuses to do a themed Rubric force because the Thousand Sons are better at it, then they're not "loyal" to the lore.

 

There will categorically never be a world in which all units are equal in all Legions so they should probably just accept it and move on.


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#15
Putrid Choir

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Yeah I'm a fan of EC having the best noise marines. I'd be pretty upset if my DG didn't have the best plague marines. I can't even take vanilla chaos marines and use RCC's as DG. That's the trade off. Less options, more specialization.
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#16
Gederas

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Cult troops are not very appealing except from their specific legion so they're kinda dead entry's, at least currently. I don't feel EF would make EC less appealing. It would just be a taste of the full legion benefits and strats. Especially considering soup took a major hit.

 

OR maybe GW just makes them solid in another manner. Even giving cult troops obsec would do it. You don't get any of the bennies but they are always obsec. And if taken in their legion also take up troops slots. Hmm

I've run Plague Marines and Khorne Berzerkers in my Night Lords to great effect.

 

Realistically, I could see Noise Marines doing well in there as well, the only issue being how I could model them.
 

Yeah I'm a fan of EC having the best noise marines. I'd be pretty upset if my DG didn't have the best plague marines. I can't even take vanilla chaos marines and use RCC's as DG. That's the trade off. Less options, more specialization.

I'm in agreement, but they should at least be usable by non-Cult Legions.


Edited by Gederas, 17 August 2020 - 01:47 PM.


#17
Brom MKIV

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I appreciate that, but do not believe your point is at all factual. The current system of Legion rules do not actually discourage cult troops for "the majority of the Legions", because they don't make cult troops worse in those Legions; they simply make them better in a select few by incentivizing their selection. And as for soup, the advent of 9th edition has brought concrete downsides for those who choose to maximize their lists in that fashion. If you want to get the best Noise Marines you need to pay CP to take an EC detachment now. That isn't encouraging soup at all. In fact, it's the opposite. As an EC player I have no issue with that whatsoever.

 

All the power to your interpretation. But you're missing my point and shuffling in a different direction because your original post advocated taking something away from EC and giving it to all Legions, which is what I took issue with, not that you might wish for cult units to get a little stronger. I appreciate that was likely just an example, albeit one which would swing the pendulum too far n the other direction. Take your own Legion, the AL, which has been the most competitive choice for c. 3 years now. The AL have a large range of stratagems that impact a wide range of units. None are aimed at a particular themed unit. If you move something like Excruciating Frequencies from EC to all then the Alpha Legion, hands down, have the best Noise Marines in the game. That would be silly. But as currently written you can use your own perks to play Noise Marines in a way that other Legions cannot while, conversely, the EC have stratagems that impact a smaller range of units in a more narrow fashion. That is appropriate.

 

Should all Legions have access to the WB Revered Hosts stratagem? No. Should all Legions have access to the IW Rampant Technovirus stratagem? No. The answer here is clearly not to take something away from EC and give it to everybody else for the reasons I have outlined above. Don't forget we already have the big +1W shenanigans coming in the future; perhaps that alone combined with a not-unreasonable points increase will make cult units more viable in other Legions when combined with their already innate bonuses, or they may receive other changes to their stats or weapons or rules similar to what we are seeing with loyalist SM & Necrons.

 

As for your friends, uhhh....none of the cult units are actually bad though. Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean. If they're so desperate to use cult units but refuse to do so just because another army might do it slightly better, then that's just too bad for them. I do not understand how being "loyal" to your Legion's lore stops you from using a unit just because somebody else does it better. If e.g. a Black Legion player refuses to do a themed Rubric force because the Thousand Sons are better at it, then they're not "loyal" to the lore.

 

There will categorically never be a world in which all units are equal in all Legions so they should probably just accept it and move on.

 

Ok yea this is getting too serious over something that to me really isn't.

 

Regarding missing your point you totally missed mine. It wasn't about taking away your NM strat. It was just an example, as I stated.

The point is simply that GW could give something to cult troops.. whether inherent buff, non cult specific strat , obsec or whatever. Again that was just a random example. 

 

Also I never said those guys were "desperate" to use cult units or shuffled or anything like that so please reread my posts.

It seems your taking offense when none was given (well unless maybe you have rock stars with :cussty paintjobs lol in which case whoops).

Note that I even advocated FOR taking EC since they ARE the best noise marines and really the only way currently that they aren't worse than a regular csm squad let alone something like a contemptor or terminators. 

 

 

@thread

I have no sentimental attachment to this unit. I gave my input based on playing them as EC troops and as elites. As troops they're excellent as a larger unit popping EF every turn and then additional units suffer diminishing return. As elites they were solid for me in the past before the game and rules evolved. Now I cannot recommend them outside of EC.  


Edited by Brom MKIV, 17 August 2020 - 03:09 PM.

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#18
Marshal Loss

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Ok yea this is getting too serious over something that to me really isn't.

It's just a civil discussion, there's nothing to fear and no need to get agitated.

 

Regarding missing your point you totally missed mine. It wasn't about taking away your NM strat. It was just an example, as I stated.

The point is simply that GW could give something to cult troops.. whether inherent buff, non cult specific strat , obsec or whatever. Again that was just a random example.

I didn't miss the point at all - you did. Go back to my original post and read a little more carefully. And I quote:

 

Spoiler

 

 

Your example suggestion was to take something away from EC. It was a poor example that then spawned an interesting discussion, your nonsensical points aside. That's all. I'm glad we can now move on. smile.png

 

edit: grammar


Edited by Marshal Loss, 17 August 2020 - 06:17 PM.

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#19
Brom MKIV

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Your example suggestion was to take something away from EC. It was a poor example that then spawned an interesting discussion. That's all. I'm glad we can now move on. smile.png

 

Poor example equally poor reaction. I'm glad we are moving on too. See ya wub.gif


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The only reason that Bjorn is in a dreadnought is that he fought Chuck Norris and won but the backlash of that much awesome mortally wounded him.....
-Emptyedens
 

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#20
Putrid Choir

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Yeah I'm a fan of EC having the best noise marines. I'd be pretty upset if my DG didn't have the best plague marines. I can't even take vanilla chaos marines and use RCC's as DG. That's the trade off. Less options, more specialization.


I'm in agreement, but they should at least be usable by non-Cult Legions.

Noise marines are usable with other Legions. They can still use the slaanesh strat to shoot twice and can still use Votlw. And now with them going to 2W, that benefits every legion as well. I see them used in non EC about as often as I see chosen being used.

I got a feeling with the new Marine and necron codexes having a mono bonus that every new codex in 9th will have one (SoB at the end of 8th did too), so if that's true one would be penalized in the form of missing out on the bonus for bringing a second Detatchment just to use the noise marines as EC (on top of the CP for the second Detachment).

#21
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I’m planning on adding a good sized unit of them to my Black Legion at some point. Maybe with a rhino as 9th is all about grabbing those table sections!
I’m not overly fussed about them having to be EC. They can use the Slaanesh trait after all. :)

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