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CSM 9th Ed Troop Loadouts


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#26
RapatoR

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My bad for being unclear, I meant "bare bones" 5-man squads in addition to other, kitted-out squads. I am expecting there will be additional actions in our codex so I was thinking about fielding some unit(s) purely to be "action-doers". I have seen some of you suggested to add some equipment anyway, but wouldn't that be wasted when they have to run around and do actions?


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#27
PiƱaColada

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No, I understood what you mean the first time. But with most actions (especially the non-psyker ones) you don't actually have to keep doing every turn, so omitting a special weapon to keep the cost down mostly for that reason doesn't make any sense to me really. The big cost of a bare-bones 5man CSM squad are the bodies so after that an additional 10 points is such a small price to pay for extra offensive output that unless you really can't find those points anywhere else in the list to spare I find it difficult to argue against that investment. A bare-bones CSM squad will probably never do anything besides hold the board and some actions but a singular special/heavy weapon could actually make them threatening towards several different units and due to the extra bodies in those squads that special weapon is pretty annoying to get rid off. Even in a worst case scenario where that squad is killed immediately the extra points you've just lost are pretty much negligible. 

Looking at what actions you'd want to make your CSM do I'm guessing it's most likely "Raise the banners high" or "Deploy scramblers". The banner one you don't have to keep doing every turn as they keep scoring until you lose those objectives, the scramblers are just 3 different actions but the placement of them makes only the first two (your deployment and no-mans land) realistic to do with CSM squads..


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#28
Doom Herald

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I suppose it's possible that they could be "wasted," but it's not a big waste. Smaller board means that a squad like that will likely be in range to add fire power to the fight at large and heavy weapons are much cheaper now. A smaller board also means it's easier to charge and get charged and a Powerfist adds some weight to your unit should either happen. I don't have my book on me right now, but what does performing actions prevent you from doing? If it doesn't prevent shooting, a heavy weapon would still be useful.

Your opponent likely won't leave a 5-man squad scoring you victory points alone. Maybe the first couple times they see it, but they will catch on eventually and start trying to eliminate them. On the other hand, if they're forced to deal with other units killing their army, maybe they won't. 9th really is more about victory points than killing things though, so I would expect your point scorers to be targeted just like heavy hitters. A bare-bones squad is a less attractive target for your opponent to focus on, but a Powerfist is very cheap now and adds a detterent to chargers in addition to giving the unit more teeth if you find you need it.

Edited by Doom Herald, 18 August 2020 - 05:06 PM.


#29
Rune Priest Ridcully

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Depending how the points come out, but thinking 5 man melta gun and combi melta could be nice if the smaller melta weapons also get the damage boost, not sure on the cost of close combat weapons though, even with emperor's children :P.


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QUOTE (Kol_Saresk @ Oct 22 2012, 06:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I love how GW creates the Warp Talon to be some sort of super-powered Raptor, and instead it's become the king-of-all-kitbashes.

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#30
Doom Herald

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I think we will see a lot more terminators going forward. When you get hit with deepstriking Terminators trying to force you off of objectives, I think you will be glad you spent the pts. Even just for other power armor Marines (now 2 wounds), it will add a lot of bite.

Edited by Doom Herald, 18 August 2020 - 07:35 PM.


#31
Subtle Discord

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I suppose it's possible that they could be "wasted," but it's not a big waste. Smaller board means that a squad like that will likely be in range to add fire power to the fight at large and heavy weapons are much cheaper now. A smaller board also means it's easier to charge and get charged and a Powerfist adds some weight to your unit should either happen. I don't have my book on me right now, but what does performing actions prevent you from doing? If it doesn't prevent shooting, a heavy weapon would still be useful.

Your opponent likely won't leave a 5-man squad scoring you victory points alone. Maybe the first couple times they see it, but they will catch on eventually and start trying to eliminate them. On the other hand, if they're forced to deal with other units killing their army, maybe they won't. 9th really is more about victory points than killing things though, so I would expect your point scorers to be targeted just like heavy hitters. A bare-bones squad is a less attractive target for your opponent to focus on, but a Powerfist is very cheap now and adds a detterent to chargers in addition to giving the unit more teeth if you find you need it.

And that's exactly what you want to force your opponent into doing, choosing between shooting that chaff unit that's only a minor threat but performing actions and scoring points or that hard-hitter that is a proper threat, chewing away at parts of their force, but not scoring points. Then, depending on what they choose, in theory, you have a general plan how you'll react depending on what they target. If you can make the chaff unit just enough of a threat that you make that choice even harder, that's good.


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#32
Dr_Ruminahui

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If Subtle Discord ever makes his rhino trim available again, I plan two get a few sets and build some rhinos and melee noise marines for my army. :P


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#33
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I want to do away with cultists entirely, but you do raise a compelling point. Sometimes i might just need a disposable squad for the purposes of doing actions/taking objectives. But can this be done by other power armoured units?

 

In short "Yes, but...". A small unit of basic CSM could do the same job but be tougher; a small unit of Raptors have the mobility to get to objectives fast.

 

However, these units miss out on a couple of advantages that Cultists have. Firstly, they are the cheapest option - assuming CSM get a similar bump that Loyalists will then we will have 17-18ppm (the latter if we get updated Legion traits & army bonuses etc) making 5 CSM 85/90 points, which is around 50% more expensive than 10 Cultists are clocking in at 60. Now, 5 CSM are undoubtedly tougher and going to do more damage but that is not the point of these units. Having 10 models with Objective Secured is useful for beating out those units of 5 Intercessors that Loyalists will be using (and doubtless other Firstborn units soon), here wounds are irrelevant it is about numbers to control, even just for a turn before being wiped out.

 

Secondly, Tide of Traitors is an excellent stratagem even on small units. If you have drawn the opponent out to the left of the battlefield by sending cheap Cultists to this outlying objective whilst your "real" units contest the central ones, you can then use the stratagem to suddenly redeploy to move on the right side objective and completely wrong-foot your opponent. If they counter by redirecting fast units then you have successfully drawn even more resources away from the main fight.

 

Certainly you can use other units, I just think that Cultists should not be completely written-off just yet.

 

 



Can you elaborate on what units you'll run alongside 10/30 strong cultists to take advantage of their respective strengths? Do their loadouts matter?

 

Not fully - I am still experimenting with what I want to run. I do plan on using 5-man CSM units with a fire-support weapon (Heavy Bolter/Reaper Chaincannon/Lascannon) and 10-man CSM units in Rhinos (dual-Specials). This way I should get a balance of numbers and toughness without breaking the bank. The real damage is going to come from Terminators, Chosen, Havocs, Daemon Engines, Hellbrutes, Characters etc. (I even have a half-formed idea of escorting 30 Cultists with 2 Vindicators for a relatively cheap block that packs a surprising punch).

 

The wargear of the Cultists doesn't really matter, especially with the newMEQ increase to 2W per model - a 10-strong squad of Autogunners in Rapid Fire range will struggle to kill even 1 Marine, so a CC-setup might be more viable. Equally, charging 30 Autogun Cultists in defensible terrain (especially if they bring 3 Flamers) could be a nasty Overwatch surprise for the opponent.

 

Assuming Flamers stay as relatively cheap weapons I see no reason not to take one, especially with the increase to 12" range.

 

 



I think we will see a lot more terminators going forward. When you get hit with deepstriking Terminators trying to force you off of objectives, I think you will be glad you spent the pts. Even just for other power armor Marines (now 2 wounds), it will add a lot of bite.

 

Equally, if my opponent drops a 200+ point Terminator unit to take an objective from a 60-point Cultist squad then I count that as a win since it removes a key asset from another area of the battlefield, potentially giving me local superiority over other objectives.

 

 



And that's exactly what you want to force your opponent into doing, choosing between shooting that chaff unit that's only a minor threat but performing actions and scoring points or that hard-hitter that is a proper threat, chewing away at parts of their force, but not scoring points. Then, depending on what they choose, in theory, you have a general plan how you'll react depending on what they target. If you can make the chaff unit just enough of a threat that you make that choice even harder, that's good.

 

 

I can certainly see the logic here, both approaches certainly would work to the same end result, but I think you can fall into the trap of making other units cost just a bit too much. Sacrificing a mere 60-65 points is a lot better than 120. Keeping these units as cheap as possible adds an alternate dimension to making them just threatening enough - that is that by virtue of claiming objectives/performing actions etc they are already a valuable target for the opponent, but at the same time are so cheap and not really doing anything else that the opponent doesn't want to commit to taking them down. They either risk gambling incidental fire (those Bolters that aren't going at newMEQ) and therefore odds are some will survive and keep giving you victory points, or they send a unit specifically to kill them that will almost certainly cost more points and therefore give you a greater advantage elsewhere on the battlefield.


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Nah, no one takes a ship like the XIIth. Imagine being stuck in a space-bound tin can with only short hallways to set up firing points. It'd be like releasing a pack of PCP'ed up wolverines (the animals, not multiple Hugh Jackmans) into a locker room and blocking all the exits.

 

They aren't stuck inside a ship with you, you're trapped on a ship with them. 

 

However, the First Son and his Templar Brethren are who I'd bet on to defend that ship happy.png

 


#34
Doom Herald

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My point was in favor of arming small CSM squads not really against cultists, still I think a 10 man cultists squad would faire worse. The problem with terminators dropping on your min squad cultists babysitting an objective is that they will barely be able to scratch the terminators and probably die to a man. Then, you're left with all those terminators on the objective probably where they can set up camp and shoot now that boards are smaller. 5 CSM will stand at least enough of a chance that a heavy/special weapons marine and/or Champion will survive long enough to put a decent dent in that squad before they go and thus make it easier for the next unit to reclaim. Also, since you score objectives in the command phase, a single CSM that survived your opponent's turn will score you that objective with ObSec and, if he avoids melee on your turn, even deny your opponent's Terminators from claiming it.

Edited by Doom Herald, 19 August 2020 - 01:04 AM.


#35
MegaVolt87

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My point was in favor of arming small CSM squads not really against cultists, still I think a 10 man cultists squad would faire worse. The problem with terminators dropping on your min squad cultists babysitting an objective is that they will barely be able to scratch the terminators and probably die to a man. Then, you're left with all those terminators on the objective probably where they can set up camp and shoot now that boards are smaller. 5 CSM will stand at least enough of a chance that a heavy/special weapons marine and/or Champion will survive long enough to put a decent dent in that squad before they go and thus make it easier for the next unit to reclaim. Also, since you score objectives in the command phase, a single CSM that survived your opponent's turn will score you that objective with ObSec and, if he avoids melee on your turn, even deny your opponent's Terminators from claiming it.


Just another thought, if you lost your cultists to enemy termi's, they will be out of your way for mabye a turn or more. Then you make a counter push with your other three troop units, but you need to push another objective hard to make up for it. I think 4 units of troops in 2k pts CSM lists will be the way for us to play for objectives.
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#36
Doom Herald

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I don't think there's a substantial enough reason in theory to not try Cultists if you really want. 60pts versus 90-100pts, the former filling the roll of a throw away distraction, the latter being the same but with an extra turn of scoring and denying the objective (and maybe taking a couple models out). The theoretical question to ask is whether in your army and with your playstyle those 30-40 points are worth that. If they really are throw away distractions, cultists might be the way to go. If you want a more solid dedicated objective taker, I still think the durability and smaller footprint makes 5CSMs better. Personally, if I wanted a throw away distraction unit taking objectives I would use Chaos Spawn. They are faster and cheaper and have a much smaller footprint than either if you use a single model (maybe even two) per unit.

I would be more likely to use multiple small cultists squads with a flamer or a full size squad with 3 flamers as an ambush from reserves unit(s). I feel like they could shine in that role. Realistically though, I hate making/painting Cultists so unless they prove to be astonisngly effective I doubt I would take them anyway. Then again, I did buy a couple boxes of Cultists of the Abyss, so maybe.

Edit: I think it is worth pointing out that taking both 5-man CSMs and 10-man Cultists together may be a perfectly viable option as well. As was pointed out to me, if they attack your cultists, other units have a chance to score with less enemy attention. That throwaway Cultists squad could buy the CSM squad another turn to score on a different objective and if they attack the CSM instead, then hopefully they will survive and with your Cultists you will take two.

Edited by Doom Herald, 19 August 2020 - 02:23 AM.


#37
Gothical

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My point was in favor of arming small CSM squads not really against cultists, still I think a 10 man cultists squad would faire worse. The problem with terminators dropping on your min squad cultists babysitting an objective is that they will barely be able to scratch the terminators and probably die to a man. Then, you're left with all those terminators on the objective probably where they can set up camp and shoot now that boards are smaller. 5 CSM will stand at least enough of a chance that a heavy/special weapons marine and/or Champion will survive long enough to put a decent dent in that squad before they go and thus make it easier for the next unit to reclaim. Also, since you score objectives in the command phase, a single CSM that survived your opponent's turn will score you that objective with ObSec and, if he avoids melee on your turn, even deny your opponent's Terminators from claiming it.

 

Oh the Cultists are absolutely going to fare worse, though I doubt even 5 newCSM would stand up to a barrage and potential charge from Terminators. My view is that Cultists are there as a distraction and to die. They should not be your only units for claiming objectives, but that whilst the main bulk of your army is fighting over a key objective or two, you send out a couple of "distraction Cultist" units. Either you gain some victory points as the opponent ignores them or you draw units away from the rest of the army and you gain local superiority to claim the other objectives, cancelling out the one the Terminators (or whatever) are now sat on. If you do this with 2 Cultist units at 120 points and then force the opponent to send a Terminator unit after each objective (as they are the only rapid-response units available to them) then you have drawn over 400 points (and points invested in powerful units) away from the main fight allowing your own Chaos Terminators/Chosen etc to clear away the opponent's scoring units relatively uncontested. It's a bonus if you have a single surviving Cultist and pull them out to a third objective with the Endless Tide stratagem.

 

Now, I am not saying CSM cannot work in this role. As tougher units they might, as you say, survive the attention of the opponent's counter-attack and keep scoring longer. It is a different approach to a similar idea; you are looking at gaining and holding points against the enemy to give you the advantage on that objective, I am looking at forcing them to respond when they don't want to to give me an advantage elsewhere.

 

 

I don't think there's a substantial enough reason in theory to not try Cultists if you really want. 60pts versus 90-100pts, the former filling the roll of a throw away distraction, the latter being the same but with an extra turn of scoring and denying the objective (and maybe taking a couple models out). The theoretical question to ask is whether in your army and with your playstyle those 30-40 points are worth that. If they really are throw away distractions, cultists might be the way to go. If you want a more solid dedicated objective taker, I still think the durability and smaller footprint makes 5CSMs better. Personally, if I wanted a throw away distraction unit taking objectives I would use Chaos Spawn. They are faster and cheaper and have a much smaller footprint than either if you use a single model (maybe even two) per unit.

I would be more likely to use multiple small cultists squads with a flamer or a full size squad with 3 flamers as an ambush from reserves unit(s). I feel like they could shine in that role. Realistically though, I hate making/painting Cultists so unless they prove to be astonisngly effective I doubt I would take them anyway. Then again, I did buy a couple boxes of Cultists of the Abyss, so maybe.

Edit: I think it is worth pointing out that taking both 5-man CSMs and 10-man Cultists together may be a perfectly viable option as well. As was pointed out to me, if they attack your cultists, other units have a chance to score with less enemy attention. That throwaway Cultists squad could buy the CSM squad another turn to score on a different objective and if they attack the CSM instead, then hopefully they will survive and with your Cultists you will take two.

 

Spawn are great for their mobility and cheapness true, but they will lack Objective Secured-type rules and cost you Fast Attack slots instead of ubiquitous Troops slots. It is certainly a great option I hadn't considered to play a similar role if I deploy my Cultists as a single mass rather than individual distractions. 30 ambushing Cultists is certainly another strategy I am exploring.

 

Unlike previous editions I think CSM should make up the bulk of the Troops choices of the army - and I think armies will want more Troops choices than before anyway. I wouldn't use more than 30 Cultists total in an army list, either as 2 units of 10 or 1 unit of 30. The rest should be CSM and you could combine 5 CSM and 10 Cultists as an objective force (though that costs a little much to my liking), or you could take the CSM in larger units to act as frontline troops.


 

Nah, no one takes a ship like the XIIth. Imagine being stuck in a space-bound tin can with only short hallways to set up firing points. It'd be like releasing a pack of PCP'ed up wolverines (the animals, not multiple Hugh Jackmans) into a locker room and blocking all the exits.

 

They aren't stuck inside a ship with you, you're trapped on a ship with them. 

 

However, the First Son and his Templar Brethren are who I'd bet on to defend that ship happy.png

 


#38
Wraith776

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I'll be running at least one each of the following in my more casual games:

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with sword and plasma pistol

7x Marines with chainswords

Icon of Excess

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with plasma gun

7x marines with bolter

Icon of Excess

 

The marines in combat can put out quite a few attacks with 3 each on the charge and extras 1/3 of the time.

Ap -1 and some strat support like VoTLW can make then put out some serious damage.

 

With bolters, jumping out of a rhino and blasting someone, then charging if need be.


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#39
Varizel

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I'll be running at least one each of the following in my more casual games:

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with sword and plasma pistol

7x Marines with chainswords

Icon of Excess

 

 

If our next codex CSM loadout is the same as the current one, you can't take 2 marines with plasma pistol..... really stupid i think. Only 1 model out of the 10 (if you take 10) can take plasma pistol, the other has to take Special/Heavy Weapon.


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#40
MegaVolt87

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I'll be running at least one each of the following in my more casual games:

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with sword and plasma pistol

7x Marines with chainswords

Icon of Excess

 

 

If our next codex CSM loadout is the same as the current one, you can't take 2 marines with plasma pistol..... really stupid i think. Only 1 model out of the 10 (if you take 10) can take plasma pistol, the other has to take Special/Heavy Weapon.

 

 

If you switched up that unit to chosen, added 2 power swords, I think that comp would be fine when we get the new dex. Good chance of 18pt CSM, 19pt chosen in the new dex. 


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#41
Wraith776

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I'll be running at least one each of the following in my more casual games:

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with sword and plasma pistol

7x Marines with chainswords

Icon of Excess

 

 

If our next codex CSM loadout is the same as the current one, you can't take 2 marines with plasma pistol..... really stupid i think. Only 1 model out of the 10 (if you take 10) can take plasma pistol, the other has to take Special/Heavy Weapon.

 

I might be missing something in the codex as I've been away for a while but what has changed that limits the pistol amount? Is it because the seargeant also has one?

 

++EDIT++ I've just gone through and read the datasheet again and you are correct, RAW only one marine can take a plasma pistol as the 2nd point specifies only special or heavy. What a silly rule...


Edited by Wraith776, 01 September 2020 - 03:54 AM.

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#42
Wraith776

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I'll be running at least one each of the following in my more casual games:

 

Champion with Plasma Pistol & fist

2x marines with sword and plasma pistol

7x Marines with chainswords

Icon of Excess

 

 

If our next codex CSM loadout is the same as the current one, you can't take 2 marines with plasma pistol..... really stupid i think. Only 1 model out of the 10 (if you take 10) can take plasma pistol, the other has to take Special/Heavy Weapon.

 

 

If you switched up that unit to chosen, added 2 power swords, I think that comp would be fine when we get the new dex. Good chance of 18pt CSM, 19pt chosen in the new dex. 

 

 

I'll definitely be considering a unit of chosen instead of a troop unit depending on cost. If they are within a point or two of CSM then I'll definitely use a decent sized squad with a few power weapons and some special weapons.


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