Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

My Way in 9th with Grey Knights


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#26
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts
+ Elites +
Apothecary [5 PL, 80pts]: Blade of the Forsworn, Inner Fire . Nemesis Force Sword
"Inner Fire combo, and added punch with the Relic. No Points for a Hammer otehrwise he would have the 5+ FNP"

 

 

This choice looks strange to me. Apothecary is often suicidal. You are paying 1 precious CP to give him a relic which he could use only half the time. Cuirass of Sacrifice at least make sence, because he can negate MW from inner fire and under Tide of Shadows he becomes a pain to remove while being open. But I still wouldn't invest in him. His strongest point is that he is cheap. Investing in him, actually, makes him worse. 



#27
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

My thought with the apothecary is, that he adds some punch to my army with no additional point investment. The List is build around flexibillity and options to chose from. I have to declare the relic in the List design and I want him as beatstick option in my army.

So the only option i see is the Sword or the relic Helebard to give him some punch for 0 points. It costs me 1 Cp but I don't fuel double paldins, a 10 man terminator blob or a GMNDK. So I think when I'm carefull the CP should be enough.

 

My combo is to deep strike and then gate him to safety. So he can heal/punch in the later turns. The FNP Armour is super for an inner Fire caster, but I dont have the points nor the flexibility to give him some additional punch without a hammer. Most GK player swear on the Inner Fire combo, so I give it a try. I don't like it to sacrifice a GK character but with a good placed Gate I can negate it.

 

That's why the Landraider won vs. two Dreadnoughts or the double Paladins. He uses no CP and only one slot of Astral aim/Edict Imperator. So i have the other slot for the paldins/drop Strikes.

 

EDIT: Good point with the LR in the other thread. I try to stay behind obs. terain with and give a save spot from indirect fire to (important for the gameplan) units. Eradicators will kill everything and you can't protect yourself with an elite army from them. I guess i have to swallow that. T8 helps a bit, what is efective a -1 to wound when you compare dreads and the LR vs melta/rockets.

It's a pitty, that we don't have the double twin Las option for our Dreads....


Edited by Silver-Fox, 31 August 2020 - 10:37 PM.


#28
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts

My thought with the apothecary is, that he adds some punch to my army with no additional point investment. The List is build around flexibillity and options to chose from. I have to declare the relic in the List design and I want him as beatstick option in my army.

So the only option i see is the Sword or the relic Helebard to give him some punch for 0 points. It costs me 1 Cp but I don't fuel double paldins, a 10 man terminator blob or a GMNDK. So I think when I'm carefull the CP should be enough.

 

 

Why would you need another beatstick so badly? You already have two strong characters, 10 paladins, terminators. Every CP counts for GK army. You could use it to fight after death with Draigo/Voldus, give +1 to paladins/terminators, reroll critical cast or charge, etc. etc. In later game I often find myself in situation "If I only had 1 more CP". I gave up on taking relics and didn't regret it once. 

 

My combo is to deep strike and then gate him to safety. So he can heal/punch in the later turns. The FNP Armour is super for an inner Fire caster, but I dont have the points nor the flexibility to give him some additional punch without a hammer. Most GK player swear on the Inner Fire combo, so I give it a try. I don't like it to sacrifice a GK character but with a good placed Gate I can negate it.

 

 

To make a good placed gate you have to be in position. So you have to move Terminators/Voldus into your opponent's backline, which will happen only in turn 3 at best if you play aggressively. And, maybe, spend Powerful Adept on it too. The point of Apothecary is in sacrifice. Your opponent have to expect it from any side, because of Dynamic Insertion, which either forces him to give up position to protect flanks/rear of the important units or just live with the possibility of losing them. If you drop apothecary turn 2 and place him behind position, he won't be in combat till turn 4. Maybe 3, if you get lucky. Also, when you drop the apothecary, the opponent have to deal with him, which means, he will draw some fire from other units. Trying to save him may simply force you into bad position or eliminate the point of using him at all.

 

If you want to use him as a support character, I'd still won't recommend a relic. Halberd is good enough without any investments. 

 

 He uses no CP and only one slot of Astral aim/Edict Imperator. So i have the other slot for the paldins/drop Strikes.

 

 

He uses no CP, but it doesn't suddenly make him a good unit. Compared to single vendread he has 4 shots which hit on 3+ compared to 3 shots which hits on 2+ (on of those is a bit worse, but still) for twice the cost. Armies in meta have the capability to kill 4 knights in 5 turns. His durability doesn't matter - as soon as it will leave cover, it will die. Maybe in single turn, maybe in two turns. And if you want to use it as a gun platform... well, you are paying 300 pts for the firepower of single devastator squad. You are not saturating your opponent with targets - LR will get all the AV shooting. We don't bring much vehicles, so they have to be either cheap or superdurable. We don't have the latter at all. That's why I can believe in dreads or razorbacks, but not in the bricks with giants aim painted on their foreheads.  

 

I also cannot see why double paladin bomb should eat more CP. You are using one stratagem of each type once per phase anyway. You just spread them between to squads now. Buff one with spells and other one with statagems. 


  • Silver-Fox likes this

#29
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

A good point with the agressive Apothecary.

So if i take him out of the list, I have 80 pts but don't know what to do with them.

I can't take another unit and can't upgrade one in a good manner. Any Ideas?

 

When I play around in Battlescribe I land on two Lists. The Landraider list above. and the other one:

 

Spoiler

 

I have to play the Landraider List 2/4 times in the Pod. Then I can switch my List for GK. What I like is the +3" move when I get out of the transport to reach a middlefield objective with a terminator unit. So I can gate something else.

 

I like the Idea of splitting the big 10 Man Paladin unit in a punch squad wit the hammer, 2x stave, 2x helebard and the rest with the 4x psycannosn for the stratagem. I would like to play another 5 man beatstick paladin unit to go and punch things. But Can't find the points or finished list for that. It would fit in the obove list but then I have 3x5 strikes as troops.... not so good.



#30
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts
So if i take him out of the list, I have 80 pts but don't know what to do with them.

 

 

Take the apothecary, just throw him with paladins and let him support them. Take different psychic power. Apothecary is a very versatile hero.

 

I like the Idea of splitting the big 10 Man Paladin unit in a punch squad wit the hammer, 2x stave, 2x helebard and the rest with the 4x psycannosn for the stratagem

 

 

If you split the paladins, you have to split buffs too. Killing 2x5 man paladin units is way easier than 10x one. 


  • Silver-Fox likes this

#31
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

Let's see how the List performs with the 15 Paladins.

Here is my List

Spoiler

 

His List is:

Spoiler

 

The Mission is 33 - Priority target

Here is a Picture of the Deployment.

Deplayment.jpg

His Secondary: Mission Specific, Engage on all Fronts, Abhor the Witch

My Secondary: While we stand, Bring it down, Scrambler

He deploys all his forced and I have all troops, 4 servitors(teleportarium) and the 4x psycannon paladins in reserve.

I start in the Tide of Shadows.

He did win the roll for the the First Turn, So:

 

Drukari Turn 1

End-Drukari-Turn1.jpg

Wracks advanced in the south. (pink squad). Venom did the same.

He went in the middle with 3x Talos and a Raider. Drazar runs to them in the middle.

The middle Raider uses Aether Sails and auto advances 8"

Both lances did not hit with -1 to hit from Tide or adv.

The Raider made his charge in my LR. He could draw a excatly 1" line to fight.

he gets 3Pts for Engage

 

GK Turn 1

GK-Turn-1.jpg

Pink Paldins geting buffed with -1 to wound, astrail aim, Hammerhand

The LR gets Sanctuary and the LR gets Gated back a bit to get out of combat.

In the shooting phase, the LR kills the red Raider and 2 witches died while they tried to get out.

The pink Paladins shot the blue Raider with pysbolt ammunition and took 4 life of it.

the red paladins did scramble.

The Pink Palads did charge the raider and kill it and 2 wrecks died while they got out.

End of turn 1

End-GK-Turn1.jpg

 

Drukari Turn 2

He gets 15 for Primary.

Drukari-Turn-2-End.jpg

The Chronos advances, the withces and incubi in the south did the same, aswell as drazar.

The Reaver jetbikes moved in the middle.The green Raider used aether sail and goes in the midfield. bevore the witches get our and take my north objective and the incubi stay in the cover in the north.

Talos shoot at the pink paladins and they drop the -1 dmg strat. They kill 1 paladin and take 1 wound of one more with the heat lances. Reaver  follow up and take another wound of a paladin.

I lose in close combat 1 paladin and 1 goes to 1 wound from the taloi. Draigo loses 2 wounds from the Acothyst weapon. Draigo kills 3 wracks and the paaladis are out of combat range.

He hets 3 for engage and 5 for priority target.

 

GK Turn 2

I get no points for primary.

GK-Turn-2-move.jpg

Dynamic insertion gets "supervected" and i lose the cp

Lirarian kills the wracks with 11 cast inner fire and takes 3 wounds. Draigo buffes the red paladins with armoured resiliance and switch in the shooty tide. Astral aim on the Landraider, Hammerhand and sanctuary on the red paladins. Some smites took some hp of the Taloi and killed 1 witch of each squad.

In the shooting phase the LR and the psycannons kill 1 Talos and the heavy bolter kils with the 5 man terminator unit 3 incubi. The red paladins used psybolt ammunition and killed 8/9 jetbikes. He had really bad rolls.

 

Voldus and both paladin units charged in the taloi. The strike made the 9" charge and the LR + libby charged the witches. The taloi interuppted and killed 2 paladins and left the lone Paragon alive. After fighting and doulbe fight the red paladins, the talos were all dead. In the south the witches got killed and in the north the same happend.

The problem for me is, that he keeps me off the Objectives so i still have 0 points for primary. I need to score next time.

End of Turn:

Turn-2-GK-end-turn-2.jpg

 

Drukari Turn 3

The Aeldari get 15 for primary.

Turn-3-Drukari.jpg

 he moves the 2 Incubi in the venom. The middle blob goes near my red paladins and the north Incubi are ready to charge the strike squad. He can hold my south objective because draigo stands not dead center on it so he has a small gap to take it from me. I should have moved the LR a bit more up the field to prevent that.....

 Some more pictures after the movement:

Spoiler

The cronos killed 2 servitors. And rakat shot at the lone paragon and killed him because i didn't relize he has -2 rend. The Venom kills the last servitor and the Raider shot the red Paladins and the wound got saved.

The Incubi charge the north Strike squad and killed it and give him 3 points on engage on all fronts. Mission specific for 5.

 

Some Midgame thoughts:

It is incedible hard to counter the first turn vs a fast army. He can screen me out of 90% of the board and I can't go agressive because he has the taloi/Incubi counterpunch. Maybe next time I let the paladins a big squad and use the psycannons from turn one on.

He will get now some Abhore the witch points because he can kill the solo Paragon and the 5 man strike squad. So thats 6 points there. I have to save voldus and draigo while they are doing some work. Drazar is here the biggest thread. I hope he wont charge him suicide into voldus. That will kill him or use all my Cp to keep him alive, if possible. It feels like I have to get 15 for while we stand. My last drop servitors have to dynamic insert in my round to get scramblers. I hope I don't forget it. The Strike squad will counter the north Incubi and hopefully shoot them to death.

I don't think I can deny him in this state the 45 for primary because it seems impossible to shift his 20 wracks from his backfield.

 

 

GK turn 3

20200904200703-1.jpg

He holds all obj on the board. So no primary.

In the movement phase i inserted the servitors for my last scrambler and did shock the strike squad

In psychoc phase switch to NK phase.

Sucubus interupts and kills 1 paladin and wounds 1 paladin. We both used our command reroll there.

Draigo killed the chronos. Voldus killed Drazar and the Paladins killed the Succubus and wounded Urien for 3 Wounds. Then Urien punched back and killed a paladin with 2 mortal wounds. The strike squad took 6 hp from the Raider and left it on 2 wounds.

End of turn:

GK-Turn3-End.jpg

 

 

Drukari Turn 4

He gets 10 primary.

Drukari-Turn-4.jpg

The venom shot at the libby and did nothing and the wracks charged the Landraider with a 12" charge move.

The venom charged the Libby and did nothing. The Wracks took 1 hp from the LR

end of turn

End-Drukari-turn-4.jpg

 

 

In GK turn 4

End-of-Game.jpg

I get 5 points primary and the we spoke it through.

We rolled, if I can elimiate the wracks on his north objective but i couddn't do it. So the End result would be:

 

End of Game Scoreboard (he has 3 more points in abhor the witch for killing my strike squad and the paladin squad)

20200904211520-1.jpg

 

 

End of Game thoughts:

in the next post....

 

The pairings for the Pod is out and I play vs an Ultramarine Successor Chapter

Spoiler

Edited by Silver-Fox, 04 September 2020 - 10:59 PM.


#32
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts

You cannot dynamic insert servitors, because they do not have Teleport Strike rule. 



#33
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

You cannot dynamic insert servitors, because they do not have Teleport Strike rule. 

Oh ok, then I have to appologize. But i woudn't have mattered much because I had a strike squad deepstriking the same turn. The Raider would have been on more wounds but that wouldn't change the outcome much. Thx for the Info. I thought with the teleportatium strat they were in Teleport Strike.

 

EDIT:

Ok then I post my thoughts here about the game.

 

-Splitting the big paladin blob was a mistake, because I didn't use the shenanigans with the landraider and did deepstrike it, so the firepower was missing in the first and prob. second round.

 

-One strike Squad is a good toolbox, but more than 5 is "a bit much" in the list. It feels like they don't do their job and a 10 man unit would be a kind of cheap source of the psybolt ammunition stratagem, but you have to use the max range bolter drill strat and can't use the +1 to hit terminator strat.

--> I think about taking a 10 man terminator unit again in the List.

The full Helebard setup was quite nice and did some dmg but I don't think a strike squad can win a fight vs 10 wracks even when they are 10 man.

 

-I really like the 5 man Paladin "smash" unit. It has a small footprint and can hide, and hits hard and is hard to kill. When I expose only the fully buffed squad, then it's not so bad that you can only buff 1 unit. The -1 dmg strat is cheaper aswell. 265 points is a lot in a GK List and when I want to play a big terminator unit, I have to sacrefice the small paladin unit. It feels the terminator units don't have enough punch and the Hammer is not worth the investment on a 3 atts 4+ to hit platform....

 

- The Landraider did perform quite well today, but he hat 2-3 hit in every CC phase with draigo rerolls..... well above average. I feel, that in this game my opponent let me have it because he wanted to kill the paladins. I played him more defensive but not very well because he got touched in the first round. (0,1 inch further back the wall and he coudn't be charged)

 

- I need to be mor carefull with my movement!

The LR touch, the draigo lazy move and the lazy paladin charge in the taloi could have had a worse outcome and was unecessary.

 

- The Inner fire did work, because i rolled an 11 on the test and my oppnent didn't know that power. It did 8 mortals to his unit and 3 to myself. I couldn't use it once until now. It was quite effective but he had vect to stop the +6" strat. The next time he will do that.

 

- Still it's so hard for me to play the primary missions. When your opponent has the first turn it feels like the game iis on the double difficulty setting now. We did play the Tide of shadows +1 cover and -1 to hit but it did matter on 2 rolls in the game. The rest was a hit anyway or a hard miss.

 

-a 4 psylencer purgation squad is super cheap and has some impressive firepower, but I can't fit it in to try it out. It yould help vs some units like chaos spawns, deamons, wracks and such things with low arour save and an invul/fnp.


Edited by Silver-Fox, 04 September 2020 - 10:54 PM.

  • Corvus Fortis likes this

#34
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts
- The Inner fire did work, because i rolled an 11 on the test and my oppnent didn't know that power. It did 8 mortals to his unit and 3 to myself. I couldn't use it once until now. It was quite effective but he had vect to stop the +6" strat. The next time he will do that.

 

 

Well, that's actually will cost 4 CP for DE player and will deny it till the end of the turn (or the round? can't recall). And you lose CP only on a roll of a 6. I view IF as a denying tool, not a thing you will actually take for damage. It still may force your opponent into a bad position or think twice before charging a character with it. I still think, that is best be used on apothecary, even if you are not going to pull of dynamic insertion combo. Your opponent still has to take in mind that you COULD use it and when apothecary actually uses it, it can heal back lost wounds.

 

- Still it's so hard for me to play the primary missions. When your opponent has the first turn it feels like the game iis on the double difficulty setting now. We did play the Tide of shadows +1 cover and -1 to hit but it did matter on 2 rolls in the game. The rest was a hit anyway or a hard miss.

 

 

Maybe try some rhinos/interceptors for objective rushing/denying? I really love interceptors, because I can 100% drop them on objective or can remove enemy units from objectives, even far-away ones. Their main weakness is 1 wound in 3+ armour, but if I manage to saturate opponent with targets, it is usually worth it. Didn't try to take more than single rhino yet and didn't like it, by maybe taking two could be a better move.

 

 

-a 4 psylencer purgation squad is super cheap and has some impressive firepower, but I can't fit it in to try it out. It yould help vs some units like chaos spawns, deamons, wracks and such things with low arour save and an invul/fnp.

 

 

They are cheap, but their damage isn't exceptional, if you don't invest CP. With -1 to-hit because of Heavy, they won't be way better then bolters. They also die quickly. I'd better invest in interceptors. Even single 5-man unit can be very helpful.


  • Silver-Fox likes this

#35
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

I got a chance to make another game vs. the Deathwatch.

My List was the T5S2 Pod List

Spoiler

 

He had

Spoiler

 

Ok spoiler it was a very short game. we played:

Mission.jpg

He won the roll for deploy and for the first turn.

 

He had everything on the board. Both intercessor teams and two veteran teams were combat squated. In each corvus was a veteran team with 2 cyclone, hammer and 2x SS+SB Veterans.

deploy-DW.jpg

deploy-dw-2.jpg

 

I had my 10 man strike team inside the LR, Draigo, Libby and the 10 man Paladin squad behind a ruin and the 5 man terminator unit behind the other ruin. The rest was in reserves. I started in the Tide of Shadows. and had 10 CP left. (-1 relic; -1 servitors in reserve)

deploy-GK.jpg

deploy-2-gk.jpg

 

The whole board:

deploy-gesammt.jpg

 

Our secondarys were:

DW: Engage on all fronts, Scrambnlers, Abhor the witch

GK: Engage on all fronts, Scramblers, While we stand

 

Turn 1 DW

turn-1-DW.jpg

he flew his Corvus in position to shoot the LR and advanced the captain and the banner carrier in the middle. Then he beaconed the squad from the left side into the middle and adv. the intercessor squad into the middle. After both crovus shot the LR and we both used your command rerolls, it had 2 life left. Those were taken by some bolter + quad mortar shots and 2 strike died while getting out behind the ruin. He got 2 points for engage on all fronts.

 

Turn1 GK

GK-turn-1.jpg

I was aggressive and wanted to counterpunch. So i moved everything to the middle, while letting draigo and the libby stand behind the wall.

In the psychic phase I switched to the shooty shoot Tide. The 5 man terminator unit gated themselves to the quadlauncher, so that they could shoot the crew. The paladins got buffed with everything and I started the shooting phase.

I started with the strike team psybolt ammunition splitting 1x in the Corvus; 4x in the Veteran team and 3x in the Intercessor team. transhumen was used on the Veterans. They killed 3 intercessors and 2 wound of the aggressor, no wound on the Flyer or the Veterans. So I poped the bring it down strat on the Flyer. The paladins did fire the psycannons on the Corvus and the SB on the intercessor team. The Corvus lost 8 wound and the intercessor didn't lose a wound.

On the other side the Terminators killed the 2 gunners and with that the quadmotar, too.

 

The strikes Charged the Veterans and lost 2 of them in overwatch(did use transhuman on them) and the paldins made their 8" charge on them too. In the fighting phase:

the strikes killed 1 veteran. then they interuted and killed 1 paladin and 1 strike.

After the paladins fought, the whole veteran squad was dead.

End of turn 1 GK:

GK-turn-1-end.jpg

 

Round 2 DW

He got 10 for primary; +2 Engage on all fronts;

 

The Corvus bombs 1 Strike to death. the other corvus got behind the ruin on my other side and the squad inside was in front of the ruin with sight on my paladins and terminators.(sry I didn't take a board picture of the round)

he moved more stuff in the middle and shot with everything on the paladins. The Paladins used transhuman. After the dust has settled 3 were still alive but one had 1 wound left. On the other side I lost 4 terminators to 1 SB and the Corvus and 1 more strike from some potshots.

Charge phase DW:

dw-turn-2-NK-phase-start.jpg

I lost the paladins and some strikes so I had 3 left. I took 3 life of his captain and i think 1 veteran with the strikes.

This was the middle after the fight. (my paragon ran from morale)

So he got +3 for Abhor the witch (paladins)

Turn-2-sw-CC-phase-end.jpg

 

I had 3 Strikes, 1 terminator, Draigo and a Librarian on the bord. Voldus, apo 2x servitors and 5 terminators where still in reserve but I had lost the game at this point, so i conceded.

 

Ok that was a typical Gk game vs marines. -4 Lascannons and Stormstrike rockets.....

I could have saved the LR If i used 1 more cp for 19 PL reserves to outflank the LR with both servitors. but then the paladins would eat the 4 Lascannons and rockets. IDK what to do with GK. Nothing works for me.

My Stats so far:

I played 10 games with Gk and lost 9 of them. The only win was because my Ultramarine opponent made some big mistakes in the movement.


Edited by Silver-Fox, 05 September 2020 - 09:51 PM.

  • Corvus Fortis likes this

#36
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts

Paladins are actually better at withstanding high damage, high AP shots, then LR. Unlike LR, they are getting 1+ save from the tide, so, unless the opponent ignores cover, they will throw 4+ from AP3 or 5+ for AP4. LR will be throwing 5+ and 6+ sv respectively. LR is wounded on 3+ by LCs, while paladins can use THP+RD combo. This means, that they will be wounded on 4+ only and will be killed on 4+ only (if they roll 3 on dmg, it will be turned to 2, so the paladin survives). And if a paladin survives, he will take the secon high dmg shot with his last wound.

 

That's why I think LR is a waste. For the same cost you could bring like 5 more paladins, which are 15 wounds vs 16 wounds, but they handle mutli-damage way better, benifit from tides and stratagems. This is exactly the reason I see more potential in all-infantry GK - they will waste opponent's AV. As soon as you field LR, it will eat all the lascannons, missiles and melta.

 

I also have a feeling that tide of convergence indeed not worth it. The game is about surviving on objectives. You may conserve CP to use RD+THP combo and always be in cover with paladins. I tend to shift to convergence only when I need to kill something badly - enemy obsec troops or mobile units. Just surviving in cover gives you way more in terms of mission. 


  • Silver-Fox likes this

#37
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

I did talk with my opponent and some friends about the game and GK in general.

The consens was that I should only be in the tide of Shadows, as you mentioned, to survive the game.

 

The dmg GK make within the shooty tide or the psycic phase is way too low and I'm vulnerable after that.

A GMNDK is not depandand on a tide and profits from tide of shadows. If I want to use a strat to support shooting I will use him to do that and can stay in the shadow tide.

 

 

Your Point with the LR vs Paladins is totaly right. In order to get some Lascannons, I put the LR in the list and to make some cheecky plays.But when the LR dies so fast, i can't do the shenanagans.

We talked about double Ven-Dreads for Lascannons but I would have lost both in the first turn, too. Every other unit with Lascannons has no tides and costs more. (flyer) So not worth it.

 

--> Maybe play Voldus(160), Draigo(190), GMNDK(230-250) as char setup and dont use Warpshape as a power.

--> Fokus more one close combat with GK, where I can do dmg. (-> Double Paladins for more Hammers)

--> 2x Paladin Squads with Hammer. Do they need to be 10 man or will it be enough to play 2x 7-8man?

--> No psycannons or psilencers in the army anymore.

--> Only Terminators as standard besides one Strike squad to get the insertion- scrambler in the enemy deployment zone.

 

-> Should I take NDk with only a Psycannon in the hvy support? They are 160 Pts and so I can keep Voldus the While we stand target. Alternative setup would be Flamer and sword.

What do you think?

 

a first list for staying the whole game in the tide of Shadows and use some points above:

Spoiler

 

I am thinking about playing my POD games with GK and then wait for the new Codex.

It feels we only have 5-7 units and none of them is worth the points....


Edited by Silver-Fox, 06 September 2020 - 02:07 PM.


#38
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts

To be honest, the more I think about 9, the more I dislike it. Denying us smite spam could be a good balancing move, if it wasn't tide-dependant. It has been already fixed by increased costs of strike squads, so GW simply overdid it once again. 

 

I liked how we played after PA. It was like finally trying to use a strategy and it did actually work. And it played very much like GK wage war in the fluff - large terminator unit (ok, paladins) on the tip of the spear, while numerous strike squads/interceptors do the battlefield support. Cheaper psycannons were an option, smite was our compensation for lack of heavy weaponry. Abhore the witch could be balanced, because we could be wrecking armies without psychic defence.

 

Now I see no worth going to other tides. Escalation? Not enough units to cast smite to justify it, knowing that you will most likely fail. There are still situation, when I can get benifit of it, but it is not like "tide dance" of post-PA. Fury? Only turn 4-5 mostly, when you are finishing off opponents in melee. This one want happen in every game. Convergence? Psy-weapons are once again not worth their point. Psybolt ammunition is still a strong choice, but you are giving up survivability for a whole turn. As for shadows - it is always worth it. Every single wound counts and every save, made because of it, may bring you a victory.

 

--> Maybe play Voldus(160), Draigo(190), GMNDK(230-250) as char setup and dont use Warpshape as a power.

 

 

I still suggest you have it your list on Vodlus, for example, just in case there's a situation you may need it.

 

--> Fokus more one close combat with GK, where I can do dmg. (-> Double Paladins for more Hammers)

 

That's what I am thinking about after a few games. I wouldn't bring more than one hammer per squad though.

 

--> 2x Paladin Squads with Hammer. Do they need to be 10 man or will it be enough to play 2x 7-8man?

 

 

I think, you go either 10, 15 or 20. 10+5 is ineresting, because 1)smaller unit gains RD strat only for 1 CP; 2) Small footprint; 3) Some annoing blast weapons don't tigger auto 3 hits. If you are spliiting paladins in 7-8 man units, you are getting less models to be buffed by spells, strats, etc. But I am not confident, you may find it to be a better approach.
 

--> No psycannons or psilencers in the army anymore.

 

I agree, that psycannons are overcosted and doesn't do much. For 40 points you could take 2 hammers or a whole unit of servitors. Psilencers are at least cheap. If you combine them with bring down the beast and onslaught, they can deal some decent damage even without tide of convergence. It is 4 CP though. I don't think, that our special weapons are mandatory at all. Maybe we will see some incinerators after range buff.

 

-> Should I take NDk with only a Psycannon in the hvy support? They are 160 Pts and so I can keep Voldus the While we stand target. Alternative setup would be Flamer and sword.

What do you think?

 

NDKs are garbage. They have worse BS on mediocre guns than GMNDK, they are not getting character-only stratagems, no rerolls, bad invuln. They will just do to any AV shooting. With a GMNDK you are, at least, can get lucky and never fail a 3+ save. 

I am also thinking about chaplain starting on the table. His prayers are unreliable, but getting bonus AP on psybolt volley may be very worth it. You cannot rely on it, but when it goes off, it is great. His prayer also boosts the AP of nemesis weapons for additional punch. 


Edited by Corvus Fortis, 06 September 2020 - 05:41 PM.

  • Silver-Fox likes this

#39
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

You say what I think with your post.

 

When I take 10 + 5 Paladins, I lose one "good Hammer carrier" but can use buffes better. Seems like a ok trade-off.

 

The Chaplain is such a unreliably option. But he can't be shot and with him in the list I can upgrade 1 terminater unit to a max squad.

-> with the paladins I can use them to double psybolt if the litany goes off. Could be worth it and with WL trait I can have the backup warpshape in the list.

 

I thought about souping GK but in a soup we have nothing unique. So no GK soupe.

The List would be like that:

Draigo

Voldus

Chappy

 

5 strike

5 terminators

10 terminators

 

10 paladins. 1x Hammer

5 paladins, 1x Hammer

3x Servitors.

=1999

 

Edit: that list reminds me of my first page list. I think it was like that. So welcome to the full List cyrcle ;)


Edited by Silver-Fox, 06 September 2020 - 07:54 PM.

  • Corvus Fortis likes this

#40
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 947 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights, Dark Angels

Your last list, is essentially what I'm running, although I have a Ven Dread instead of servitors, and one more strike squad instead of terminators. I tried playing around with different builds, but time and time again, they got shot down easily. Fun fact, Terminators are a complete waste of points - 5+ invuln, they die to a stiff breeze, paradoxically easier, than strikes.

 

I'm yet to try that list that has 3 GMNDK's in it, by Ben, but based of my last two games, probably not going to turn out great. I think at this point, we might have to wait until next month to see what kind of surprises (both good and bad ones), are in stock for us. Until then, the paladin bomb remains our viable option it seems, imo. So what I'm saying is, we are still stuck playing paladin bomb and it's probably in your best interests to keep playing it. The other idea that I'm yet to try out, is where we just go full rhino build and just hold points that way, while stocking up on our strike squads. Could be interesting, might even be worth seeing a cheeky techmarine in our list.

 

So far the only units that pulled their weight are (based of my experience so far):

 

Kaldor

Voldus

Librarian

Brother-Captain

Chaplain (after finally not failing every single turn to pass a litany!!)

 

*GMNDK - I think it's decent with both weapon options, however I don't think it had a good game to properly showcase it's potential

 

Strikes

 

Apothecary - I'm growing more and more disillusioned with Inner Fire apothecary, even if it's effective. I think I might be running him more defensively from now on.

Paladins

Venerable Dreadnought

 

*Land Raider - similar reasoning to the GMNDK, however I think it needs Sanctuary on it always to be decent, both variants. I see it's potential, but it needs something just a bit more to make it good. Perhaps that 5+ invun from Sanctuary is the catalyst.


  • Silver-Fox likes this
7DtmK1a.pnge2ZWJbt.pngt44uaS0.pngIJKynoL.pngtFMKXdu.pngAhRNilX.png

#41
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

The last week was stressfull, so i had not much time for the hobby.

Did play my match on TTS and lost horribly. (lost 6 paladins in turn 1 vs 1 double fighting Invivtor Warsuite. Didn't help that my warding staves where turned off... so the game went downhill super fast and i coudn't get a single point for primary)

 

Ok I had some time to think about a new concept for my new "GK list". You get it now, I will go the soup variant. Im sick of not having the durability and the high ap/str punch in my list. So i will Soup with bloodangels.(1500 pts)

They offer the atm op erradicators and relic contemptor dreads als solid base. Then I have the 5+ FNP banner in combination with 2 squads of bladeguard vets. They have 2+, 4++ and 5+ FNP and punch as hard as helebard paladins for 105 pts for 3 of them.

 

I have incursors to secure a good dropzone turn 0 and hold an objective turn 1. So I can play the primary better.

Ofc as Bloodangel you need a smash captain. With Deathvisions of Sanguinius he is deathcompany and can pre move for 2 CP, if i need it. With his WL trait he has a 5+ FNP with rerolls 1's. The other power HQ is Astorath. He is a ceap secret beatstick with his supersayan power. he can give +1 to hit in 6" to all BA untis once per game. (for the bladeguard)

 

BTW Erradicators with GK Terminator helmets and the shoulder shields look fitting for Gk. I hope we get a terminator unit with melta rifles.

Spoiler

 

So where is the GP part?

I had first to answer what makes us good.

-So we have good beatstick chars wich are hard to kill and can fight for 1 cp in death. (Draigo, Voldus, GMNDK). So i take Draigo. I like him more lorewise. But with the new Stormshield changes he will be replaced with Voldus.(Sancutary, Hammerhand, Gate)

He will offer CP regen for the Army and -1 to wound for himself.

 

-We have Terminator troops which are able to shock 3" with the stratagem to steal objectives. So 1 Squad is in the List. I wish I had the points to get 2 in to do it turn2 and 3.

 

-The inner Fire Appothecary. In a pure GK list he gives abhor the witch but in a soup he can be sacrificed and used to put up more preassure. To give him some punch and free up a potential relic, he gets the Hammer.

 

- Astral Aim stuff. it could be quite good but i don't think with the current Dreadnought loudout he is worth it compared to a mortis variant from the SM with quad las.

 

So the soup List will be the following:

Spoiler

Edited by Silver-Fox, 15 September 2020 - 08:27 AM.


#42
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts

I like the list, just replace GK part with more intercessors/death company and BA characters and you are good to go.biggrin.png

 

With all seriousness, this is a BA list with some GK support and I see nothing special in GK force, that you need badly unless you just want to take GK. It is ok to want to shift to a better faction, if you have no success with GK. SM are just plain better at this point, no one would argue.

 

I can understand your frustration after a long defeat steak, but If you are souping 1500 pts of another army into GK list, I would just abandon the faction at all.  Only because they are not bringing anything special to the list, which you would really need.

 

I cannot help you with BA part at all, unfortunately, but GK part seems to be redundant. I also still gives up Abhore the Witch to your opponent, because Draigo+Apothecary+Terminators are easy 13 VP. 



#43
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

I like the list, just replace GK part with more intercessors/death company and BA characters and you are good to go.biggrin.png

 

Yes, thats kind of true.

 

With all seriousness, this is a BA list with some GK support and I see nothing special in GK force, that you need badly unless you just want to take GK. It is ok to want to shift to a better faction, if you have no success with GK. SM are just plain better at this point, no one would argue.

 

I come from BA and have to stick with GK faction for the Pod. Was thinking about 5 strikes and 1 brootherhood champion to cast CP's.

 

I can understand your frustration after a long defeat steak, but If you are souping 1500 pts of another army into GK list, I would just abandon the faction at all.  Only because they are not bringing anything special to the list, which you would really need.

 

For me we can't play the 9th mission at all. At least not pure. The only thing we have for us is terminator troops and Inner Fire combo. The rest of our faction is trash.

 

I cannot help you with BA part at all, unfortunately, but GK part seems to be redundant. I also still gives up Abhore the Witch to your opponent, because Draigo+Apothecary+Terminators are easy 13 VP. 

 

So the brotherhood champion for CP's then.... maybe i can get the scriptor cybot in.

I gave up pure GK.

They are not worth it to optimize when you have nothing to work with.

Sounds hard but thats how I think about our faction atm. Think about it yourself, what makes us special?

 

I hope when we get a new codex, we will get some love and a working rules mechanic.



#44
Corvus Fortis

Corvus Fortis

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 742 posts
Think about it yourself, what makes us special?

 

 

Strudy troops in face of paladins, strong hero beatsticks (draigo, voldus, anyone with a hammer), psychic might (CT and stratagems), anti-horde strength (SB everywhere), good mind bullters (not as good as they used to be, but we can still throw a lot of mortals), mobility (shunt, gate, deep strike everywhere).

 

I suppose, your meta is marine-heavy, and marines just... doesn't care about anything. They are plain better and they have answer for any threat. New missions don't help us at all, because we cannot both utilize all our tricks and score objectives, like we did in 8th. I still think, that 15-20 paladins are the answer. It is not easy, but it is possible to win with them. 

 

Anyway, if you are not enjoying GK, I suggest to shift to another faction at least until we get our bonus wound. I don't like the current hanged up state of our rules either. I just shifted to narrative play/hobby/other systems.


  • Skywrath likes this

#45
Skywrath

Skywrath

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 947 posts
  • Location:Brisbane
  • Faction: Grey Knights, Dark Angels

 

Think about it yourself, what makes us special?

 

 

Strudy troops in face of paladins, strong hero beatsticks (draigo, voldus, anyone with a hammer), psychic might (CT and stratagems), anti-horde strength (SB everywhere), good mind bullters (not as good as they used to be, but we can still throw a lot of mortals), mobility (shunt, gate, deep strike everywhere).

 

I suppose, your meta is marine-heavy, and marines just... doesn't care about anything. They are plain better and they have answer for any threat. New missions don't help us at all, because we cannot both utilize all our tricks and score objectives, like we did in 8th. I still think, that 15-20 paladins are the answer. It is not easy, but it is possible to win with them. 

 

Anyway, if you are not enjoying GK, I suggest to shift to another faction at least until we get our bonus wound. I don't like the current hanged up state of our rules either. I just shifted to narrative play/hobby/other systems.

 

 

That x 100

 

As for myself, what makes the GK special? If our stats don't reflect it, the lore still makes us shiny enough. The fact that you are playing a faction that is better than other marines in every single way. Also I am a staunch proponent in not being a meta-slave, so go against the grain is something I've always done and will continue to do. I find that playing the OP factions, very quickly lose their flair over time, so no skin of my back. Plus the reaction on the opponent's face when they ask you what faction you play, and you show them your Grey Knights - priceless!

 

If you are thinking of souping - best of luck to you, can't help you there. However one thing I can suggest with that idea is to go Deathwatch/Grey Knights - thematically, and power level wise, deathwatch are essentially marines+. Should be some interesting combos there.


Edited by Skywrath, 15 September 2020 - 11:49 PM.

7DtmK1a.pnge2ZWJbt.pngt44uaS0.pngIJKynoL.pngtFMKXdu.pngAhRNilX.png

#46
Silver-Fox

Silver-Fox

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 50 posts
  • Location:Nuremberg

So I made my secound game of the T5S2 POD. My Opponent had mostly a Chaos Deamon Army.

I was quite happy about that, because it's a classic Match between Demonhunters and Demons.

 

His List was from my memory:

 

Demon Deatachment:

HQ

Big Chicken, Exalted Demon ( 1 more Power, -1 to hit)Warlord, "Blue Chicken"

Big Chicken, Exalted Demon ( 1 more Power, i dont know anymore) "Teal Chicken"

 

3x 5 Nurglings

1x 4 Beast of Nurgle

1x 3 Beasts of Nurgle

 

Iron Warrior Elite Detachment:

Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour, Chanaxe, Exploding 6es to hit.

2x3 oblits, Slanesh

1x2 Oblits Tzeench

 

I had my POD List Battalion:

Draigo(Resiliance, Warpshape)

Voldus(Astral aim, Hammerhand, Sanctuary, Gate), Warlord

Libby(+ CP, Move+shoot), Sanctic Shard

 

Apo, Inner Fire, Relic Sword

10 Paladins, 4x Psycannons, Hammer, sanctuary

2x4 Servitors

 

2x5 Termis, gate

1x10 Strike, astral aim

 

Landraider

 

We Played the Retriveal mission.

He won both rolls to go first and choose deployment. He had his oblit-bomb in reserve.

I had 5 terms, 1x servitors and the apo in deepstrike.

 

His Secondarys were: Kill more than me, Kill Chars, Engage on all Fronts

I Had: Engage on all Fronts, Scramblers, While we stand(LR, Draigo,Voldus)

I did start in the Shooting Phase and switched to the Smite Tide Turn2 and stayed there until the End. (Iron warriors ignore Cover and all benefits so shadow tide was useless.)

Here is the Deployment:

20200920214256-1.jpg

 

Demons Turn 1

He advanced the nurgle Beast Units to the Objectives and moved the pink nurglings back to his objective because he feared my terminator squad charging them. Psycic phase saw a CP for him and I think that was it.

20200920215610-1.jpg

 

Turn 1 GK

I moved the Terminator unit and the Servitors up on the objectives and forgot to use scamblers turn 1.

The paladins moved up in the middle slightly to the top and then moved in the psychic phase again to shield the servitors from the nurgle beasts. In the Psychic phase I buffed the paladins and the smite was banned by the chickens. The landraider and all my shooting saw 1 nurgle beast and 4 nurgling bases dead on the top objective and 1 base died on the south.

20200920222159-1.jpg

 

So Turn 2 Chaos

he moved up his blue chicken and the 4 nurgle beasts to preassure my south obj.

His Teal chicken moved to the paladins and the Oblit bomb droped behind me.

In his psy phase he killed 3 termnators and took 1 wound of the LR.

In shooting phase he took 4 wounds of draigo, killed the Libby and with some hot rolling on my saves only 2 paladins. The terminator Lord killed 3/4 servitors with his relic Bolter and I failed the moral check with them. He charged in with both cickens and killed the red Terminators and 1 paladin. In return the Teal Chicken took 9 wounds or so and the blue nothing.

20200920224230-1.jpg

 

Grey Knights Turn 2

So I sayed in with my Landraider to tank it 1 round. Draigo and the strikes moved to the oblits and the paladins stayed in combat with the Teal chicken. I droped my second unit of servitors on the same place and the terminators in his deployment. The Apo inserted to draigo and in 7" to the Behin oblit squad. (at that point i had no color markings anymore on the paladins because there is a delete bug in TTS)

I buffed the Paladins and killed some oblits with 4 dmg smites. Then I made the charge with the strikes and draigo and killed the front squad and consolidated in the back one. I lost 4 strikes and draigo was on 5 wounds(got healed by apo). The Paladins killed the Teal Chicken in close combat because the smite was banned. The drop Terminators didn't made the charge. The Landraider was on 11/18 wounds.

20200920235027-1.jpg

 

So Deamons Turn 3

he moved the nurglings to the edge of the objective in his zone. the Blue Chicken stayed in combat and took 10/11 wounds in Psy and CC. So he had 1 wound left. Draigo had the same luck and had 2 wounds left after the turn but I wiped the oblits. After the Morale I had 3 strikes left and the nurgle beast ate my servitors behind the paladins.

20200920235027-1.jpg

 

So The rest of the Game:

Basicly I charged the nurgle beast and killed it and gated the LR first in the right corner of his deployment zone and then back to his deloyment obj. The Bklue Chicken killed Draigo with psy targeted d3 dmg smite and I forgot to heal him. So he made 2 dmg and Draigo had 2 left. We talked the rest of the game about the outcome because it was late already and I won the game with 75 to 69.

20200921010935-1.jpg

 

Scoreboard:

20200921010945-1.jpg

 

Was a good feeling to use all my rules I have. The reroll to wound in CC was brutal and he coudn't stay long in close combat with me.

I must say that our psycannons are not worth the investment in Tides and CP. I think the Brothercaptain smite route with the +1 to cast strat will get you about 5 smites which are 8-10 dmg too. So i could throw out the big paladin squad and take 2x5 and more terminators instead of the strikes.

The Landraider is a cool model but never did much dmg. It dies way to easy. The strikes die to easy and terminators kann do some work as 5 man squads in the backfield. The apo hmm was kind of worth the points to heal stuff but not to inner fire. I think as a support psypower dude who heals our chars or paladins, he is useable. But resurect, hmm I wouldn't do that or the Inner fire stuff. Maybe a MSU terminator(5)/Paladin(4) setup with Brothercaptain can work....and stay in shadow/psy tide.

Something like that:

Spoiler

Edited by Silver-Fox, 21 September 2020 - 12:27 AM.

  • librisrouge and Corvus Fortis like this




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users