22 replies to this topic

[Prot]

Guys,

 

I'm looking at making minor tweaks to my Abaddon based list based on the additional wounds on marines. Black Legion specific, does this change much for you?

 

- CSM troops with AP-1 Chainswords, 2 wounds a piece. Does this mean marines as troops will be a thing?

 

- 12" flamers/Heavy Flamers. Perhaps we see a few more now?

 

- 2 Wound Havocs might be my favourite on paper. 

 

- 3 Wound Terminators is a close second. Would it be worth looking at powerswords now?

 

- Speaking of... Powerswords, would Chosen look a little more attractive now? Better weapon choices, with 2 wounds a piece. Would you look at these now?

 

- Do Bikes get a 3rd wound?

 

- Do you think this shifts the meta away from Daemon Engines, perhaps back to infantry?

 

- Warp Talons/Raptors: Will the recent point hikes make more sense now with additional wounds?

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

These are just generic questions we might start on. But the bigger question (for me at least) pertaining to Black Legion is I'm very curious to see if the shift of survivability towards Infantry might be a good look for Black Legion army lists.

[Snazzy]

I hate to say wait and see, but wait and see.  Points and weapon changes are going to lead to titanic shifts in our meta.  What will interest me the most is to see how much of a bump Terminators and Bikers will receive.  Not many weapons out there that spit 3D.

 

As to Chosen, the real problem with them is how close in cost and function they are to Terminators.  I ironically may consider them for Plasma spamming before kitting for melee.

[Prot]

I hate to say wait and see, but wait and see.  Points and weapon changes are going to lead to titanic shifts in our meta.  What will interest me the most is to see how much of a bump Terminators and Bikers will receive.  Not many weapons out there that spit 3D.

 

As to Chosen, the real problem with them is how close in cost and function they are to Terminators.  I ironically may consider them for Plasma spamming before kitting for melee.

 

Yea it might be just worth taking a plasma squad, but agreed... the problem with them compared to Terminators is the need for a transport. Points will be a huge factor for sure.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

I've already had a squad of chosen with chainswords, bolters, boltpistols, and 1 with a thunder hammer. A very good all rounder unit definitely getting a buff with 2 wounds

[Prot]

I've already had a squad of chosen with chainswords, bolters, boltpistols, and 1 with a thunder hammer. A very good all rounder unit definitely getting a buff with 2 wounds

 

 

What I like about that squad in theory is that would allow me to paint my Black Fortress dude with Hammer (what an awesome sculpt.)

[Snazzy]

I've already had a squad of chosen with chainswords, bolters, boltpistols, and 1 with a thunder hammer. A very good all rounder unit definitely getting a buff with 2 wounds

 

Rumor has it Thunder Hammers are also getting 4D.

 

 

The longer i consider it, Chosen are able to spam Flamers on the cheap.  4 Flamers and Combi-Flamer for 105 of our current points.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I have seen some list locally and online that are "intercessor spam" style space marine lists. 

 

I frankly don't see why our new Chaos statline won't allow us to functional similarly if we fill a list with 2 wound marines. 

 

I have a feeling once we get the big picture including our new codex (tactics!!!) that we will be in (overall) a healthy position, until then its really just speculation. 

[battle captain corpus]

Not going to lie to you....my big 20 man squad with bolters is looking far better now for sure!

I think honestly there will be more troops being taken, especially bigger squads or mechanised lists for board control.

BCC

[Snazzy]

Maybe.  I think there will continue to be an impulse towards tabling opponents.  I do find it funny that up until last week CSMs were considered garbage, Troops were a tax, and ObSec was overrated.  I don't believe all these people who have come to CSMs just because of these changes, or that Tactical Squads are going to be the SM meta.  BL can properly support our CSMs with our strats and abundant Warlord Traits.  Tacticals can't take Chainswords.  Renegades can't use VotLW.  We have World Killers in the event that we get outnumbered on objectives, but still have ObSec.  We are uniquely situated at present to exploit these changes.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I dont think blobs will be a thing after the codex comes out.  It is hard to give units decent stratagems if they are capable of blobbing up to 20 models giving any stratagems a very high level of efficiency.  I also think that Chosen are likely to change and be given a distinct set of rules so they are not functionally identical to terminators.  Currently I'm not too excited about them.  Terminators are a superior special weapons platform to chosen and zerkers are a much better close combat option.  I was in GWs position, Chosen are actually something I would want a new kit for with spicy new rules tied to whatever chaos god they are aligned with.  That is pure wishlisting though

 

Im not sold on power swords for terminators atm.  Against targets with invuln saves you are paying points that do nothing for you.  Against big vehicles you aren't doing much with 1 damage weapons.  I think terminators should be as cheap as possible or as expensive as possible.  Half assed builds never work in 40k.  

 

There is still too much missing information atm.  The chaos marine codex is in such a backwards state that is hard to measure how 9th will be for CSM.  Too much needs to change but no one in their right mind would trust GW to do a good job with it.  Getting 2w marines is a start but if the codex is bad then it wont really matter.  

[Snazzy]

What will interest me the most is how the Vigilus material is integrated in the new Codex.  We have the SM 8.5 Codex as an example of how they can potentially be integrated.  I would be surprised if the Specialist Detachment rules are carried over.  Maybe the Axe and a Strat.  They could also end up tossing everything we've known in 8th.  

 

 

Im not sold on power swords for terminators atm.  Against targets with invuln saves you are paying points that do nothing for you.  Against big vehicles you aren't doing much with 1 damage weapons.  I think terminators should be as cheap as possible or as expensive as possible.  Half assed builds never work in 40k.  

 

Power Swords have the advantage over Power Fists in that they don't impose the -1 to hit penalty.  In addition to hitting more often, you will generate attacks with Death to the False Emperor.  There is just less of a market for single wound attacks with such a huge part of the playerbase (SMs, CSMs) is going to have at least 2 wounds per model.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

What will interest me the most is how the Vigilus material is integrated in the new Codex.  We have the SM 8.5 Codex as an example of how they can potentially be integrated.  I would be surprised if the Specialist Detachment rules are carried over.  Maybe the Axe and a Strat.  They could also end up tossing everything we've known in 8th.  

 

 

Im not sold on power swords for terminators atm.  Against targets with invuln saves you are paying points that do nothing for you.  Against big vehicles you aren't doing much with 1 damage weapons.  I think terminators should be as cheap as possible or as expensive as possible.  Half assed builds never work in 40k.  

 

Power Swords have the advantage over Power Fists in that they don't impose the -1 to hit penalty.  In addition to hitting more often, you will generate attacks with Death to the False Emperor.  There is just less of a market for single wound attacks with such a huge part of the playerbase (SMs, CSMs) is going to have at least 2 wounds per model.

Just some quick math...

 

5 terminators with power swords attacking intercessors will score around 8 wounds removing 4 models.

5 terminators with power fists attacking intercessors will score around 7 wounds removing 7 models.  

 

This seems about right since a power fist costs twice as much it should be twice as effective against multi wound targets.  

 

Here is what happens against the ideal target for power swords, a necron warrior with a 4+ save.

 

5 terminators with power swords attacking necron warriors will score around 9 wounds removing 9 models.

5 terminators with power fists attacking necron warriors will score around 9 wounds removing 9 models. 

 

Ok so it is abundantly clear, power swords are niche at best.  They re a budget option that is only optimal against a very specific target.  Chainaxes are way better vs chaff, fists are superior vs multiwound,

 

 

EDIT:  proof read failure   Shout out to Dr_Ruminahui 

Edited by SanguinaryGuardsman, 21 August 2020 - 08:13 PM.

[Snazzy]

 

Here is what happens against a the ideal target for power swords, a necron warrior with a 4+ save.

 

 

I'd argue the ideal target is a Guardsman, Scion or Battle Sister.  T3, Imperium.  But, yeah, Power Swords as is are not competitive.  I'd argue Power Axes are not, either.  Chainaxes and Powerfists ftw.

 

 

 

Anyone have any experience running Spawn in 8th or 9th?  They seem like they have potential in 9th with all these wounds being passed out.  I'm also drawing a blank on how to exploit them as Black Legion.

[Tallarn Commander]

I often ran Spawn in 8th. Usually in squads of 1 or 2 to keep their footprint low.

They were a fun, cheap, light screening unit. They did a great job of tangling with and interrupting the enemies' light screening units like Scouts or War Walkers.

People often ignored them. Spawn won me more than 1 close game by cowering behind cover on an objective.

 

 

 

Brrrble the Chaos Spawn holds an objective, winning the game for Chaos!

Edited by Tallarn Commander, 21 August 2020 - 06:40 PM.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

 

Here is what happens against a the ideal target for power swords, a necron warrior with a 4+ save.

 

 

I'd argue the ideal target is a Guardsman, Scion or Battle Sister.  T3, Imperium.  But, yeah, Power Swords as is are not competitive.  I'd argue Power Axes are not, either.  Chainaxes and Powerfists ftw.

 

 

 

Anyone have any experience running Spawn in 8th or 9th?  They seem like they have potential in 9th with all these wounds being passed out.  I'm also drawing a blank on how to exploit them as Black Legion.

 

I meant the ideal target for a power sword in which you are not wasting any AP and the +1s matters.  So the target has to be t4 or higher have a 4+ save or lower, not have an invuln, have 1w or less without a shrug.  That is too specific to warrant paying 5 points for since it will suck vs multiwound or chaff.  

[Hannibal]

2 wounds per MArine will not bring us anywhere near Primaris Marines. They still offer so much more than just +1 wound:

 

- A charging Intercessor champ bears 5 attacks! That´s something that was given to HQs in the former editions, not to troops.

- They offer better weaponry with better range and better rend which can be further increased by their stupid rules set.

- They offer better legion traits and some really good tactical stratagems.

- They offer some frightening DAKKA units no other faction is able to match.

- They offer better Dreadnoughts / walkers.

- They offer better tanks.

 

2 wounds on CSM will just see them staying longer on the board, but with all those damage1 weapons they won´t deal more damage. And that´s the biggest disadvantage compared to loyalist Marines.

[Khornestar]

This thread is not about the disparity between primaris and CSM. Please stay on topic, folks.

[Brom MKIV]

 

Anyone have any experience running Spawn in 8th or 9th?  They seem like they have potential in 9th with all these wounds being passed out.  I'm also drawing a blank on how to exploit them as Black Legion.

 

Not as black legion.. but yea I typically include spawn in my lists. As single models they deny deep strike and score cheaper than anything. They are also great at "redirecting" if you want insurance for a combat going bad. In larger units they also shred primaris very handily which is one reason I started using them more in the first place.. I wanted to go underneath. Anyway I prefer single models and units of 3 although 4 is better if you have a plan or the pts. Tsons are the best and here 3 models is sufficient but NL can pull off a great spawn unit gaining buffs from +1 to hit strat which goes well with -1 discipline. I've had good experience with both as well as more vanilla versions in AL since they can mess with reserves too. 

 

In 9th I have limited experience but they feel even better now. Take what I said above and add actions and the ability to assault from strategic reserves. The main drawback being FA slots depending on how you build your lists. 

Highly recommend them. 

[Charlo]

While blobs are at the mercy of Blast Weapons (especially multi-damage ones), I think Abaddon with blobs/ havocs etc in a deathball has potential - especially on smaller boards with World Killers in the back pocket. You can downright steal objectives with that one or at least prevent opponents from scoring.

 

3W on Terminators makes them very nice at dropping down with massed Combis and expecting to survive retaliation if they fail the 9" charge.

[Marshal Loss]

3W on Terminators makes them very nice at dropping down with massed Combis and expecting to survive retaliation if they fail the 9" charge.

Not to be nitpicky, but will be very nice. Until we get a new codex with the new profiles & new points costs there isn't much point saying something is or isn't good based on what we don't yet have access to. Too many variables to account for just yet

[Charlo]

 

3W on Terminators makes them very nice at dropping down with massed Combis and expecting to survive retaliation if they fail the 9" charge.

Not to be nitpicky, but will be very nice. Until we get a new codex with the new profiles & new points costs there isn't much point saying something is or isn't good based on what we don't yet have access to. Too many variables to account for just yet

 

I mean, isn't that the point of the whole thread?

[Marshal Loss]

Not much of a point. Without access to pricing this kind of discussion is far too speculative. Pricing will decide what is good and what isn't.

 

Quoted you as an example though, shouldn't have targeted your post in particular: my bad

[Charlo]

No worries hombre, we all serve the Warmaster