Curiosity on Gloriana Class Battleship

[Whitelion]

The first,

please, did you remember if is in the beginning, in the middle or in the end of novel? 

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Latter half? It takes them a while to find it.

I hope, when you've tracked down all of these primary sources you're adding them to Lexicanum!

[Whitelion]

thank you very much, well i am not able to write an article for lexicanum, i don't even know how to make the request.

 

But some things should add them, for example we know from the novels that the biggest Gloriana is not the MacRagge Honor with 26 km, but the Invincible Reason with 28 km.

 

Also for Invincible Reason we know that it is equipped with DAoT warp and singularity weapons, and that it has hundreds of macrobatteries. It is also claimed that it can kill a world.

 

These things could add to lexicanum, because it is very meager on the Gloriana classes.

[Iron Lord]

3 km Lunar-type cruisers made  their  debut in the Gordon Rennie  Battlefleet Gothic novels. The actual BFG rulebooks didn't really nail down ship sizes.

 

FFG's  Rogue Trader rulebooks were the first source to associate Lunar-type ships with a length of around 5 km.

 

I believe the main source for the assumption that "Regular cruisers are around 8 km" was the Know No Fear HH novel.

 

 

 

I'd speculate that, during the Heresy era, each ship class was pegged to a somewhat larger size than was standard in  the 41st Millennium. The Terminus Est was described  as a battle cruiser in Flight of the  Eisenstein,  but in BFG it's a full-sized battleship.

 

Perhaps in  the Heresy,  Retributions were considered  battle  cruisers or heavy cruisers,  and Lunars were considered to be more light cruisers or even heavy escorts?

[Lord_Caerolion]

Just remember that the Terminus Est is a full-blown Plagueship, and almost certainly heavily possessed. It's a battle-cruiser in the Heresy era, but by the time of the Gothic War it's had 10,000 years to soak in the Warp to mutate and grow.

[Iron Lord]

We know the Despoilers were based on the Terminus Est chassis in-universe (though, out of universe, it's the reverse, the Terminus Est model was modified from the Despoiler base).

 

I presumed that the ship itself was about the same size in the 41st Millennium that it was in the 31st Millennium - just much more organic-looking.

[Commander Nicky]

Lexicanum gives you a decent starting point for references. I've linked to the Gloriana Class Battleship page. That has links to the pages for each of the Glorianas so that you can research the various references for them.

 

The malleability/evolutionary nature of the lore means that there will always be a certain amount of friction when comparing sources. While it's easy to attribute some degree of confusion, it's a simple fact that the lore changes over time. Taking the Eternal Crusader, for example, it was first introduced (during WH40K 3rd edition) as an exceptional battle barge. It was given official rules in BFG as such. When the Gloriana class was later introduced with the fleshing out of the Horus Heresy, the Eternal Crusader was retconned as one of these immense ships. This wasn't an immediate retcon that occurred concurrent with the introduction of the Gloriana, but happened later.

 

Something to keep in mind with the references at Lexicanum is that they are a poorly conceived system - not using MLA or some other solid structure. I've just consulted two of the references and they are inaccurate. I have the hardback version of The Horus Heresy Book One - Betrayal (2012) and the first printing of The Horus Heresy - Collected Visions (2007). The Gloriana class battleship isn't mentioned on page 96 of Betrayal, nor is it mentioned on page 38 of Collected Visions. The Conqueror (the World Eaters' Gloriana) is mentioned on page 96 of Betrayal, but it's described as a battle barge. My assumption with both is that Lexicanum authors have consulted later editions of these books (i.e., the paperback version of Betrayal incorporated some changes, which I can't confirm, and the 2nd edition of Collected Visions incorporated more recent material, which is known). I just consulted The Horus Heresy Book Five - Tempest and that listing, too, is inaccurate. Glorianas aren't mentioned anywhere on page 20 of that book (which Lexicanum lists as the reference page). Moreover, that book mentions that the Ultramarines had two Glorianas, but doesn't name them (on page 82 under The Ultramarine Fleet in the hardback version of the book).

 

In conclusion, question everything. Unless you see a reference with your own eyes, it is suspect (yes, even anything that I quote ).

 

In the the novel "First Legion" (from the "scions of the Emperor") it is mentioned that the Dark Angels' flagship; "the invicible Reason" was the first Gloriana-class vessel to be constructed.

It is also mentioned in the Horus Heresy book 9; Crusade, that the Dark Angels fleet including multiple Gloriana Class vessels and that the Gloriana Class Battleships, along with the Promethean Class Cruiser and Tiamat Class Destroyer were relics of forgotten technologies, that far surpassed more modern warship designs in potency. The Emperor had somehow gained possession of a number of these warships and as the Great Crusade began, he gave a small number to most of the Space Marine Legions The First Legion (The Dark Angels), however, was given a Fleet of these warships, due the honor they had earned themselves in the Unification wars.

I think, that the Gloriana Class Battleships might be ships which were vessels salvaged while drifted in the Solar system and was re-commissioned after an extensive refit. I also think that the Imperium tried (and succeed) in building their own type/replica of the Gloriana Class Battleship, the Invicible Reason being the first.

 

When building a design, you will often go with a design of Experiment which is a scientific way of analysing experimental data. However, when working with/on something that you cannot (and are not going to) mass-produce  you will usely stick to a well tested design. Alternatively you are considering rethink the whole design and, at once, keeping with the layout and features which has proven to work very well.

 

The Gloriana Class Battleships wihch were produce were therefore very likely laking in certain areas than the originals and the originals might even be different from one another dependent upon their state at the discovery.

 

My point being, that it cannot be taken for granted that the Gloriana Class Battleships are identical to one another even when they are called "sister-ships". At the bare minimum they have some common features in their design but much must have been improved upon through trials-and-errors from the first constructed ship to the last Gloriana battleship. They would still be classified as Gloriana Battleships, but that is only because another new design has not yet been proposed.

 

Another note is on the term "sister-ships"; A sister ship is a ship of the same class or of virtually identical design to another ship. Sister ships are therefore vessels which share a nearly identical hull and superstructure layout, similar size, and roughly comparable features and equipment. Typically the ship class is named for the first ship of that class (considering the Gloriana, this would be the first discovered). Often, sisters become more differentiated during their service as their equipment (in the case of naval vessels, their armament) are separately altered.

 

Since the Gloriana ships servied for 200 years or more during the Great Crusade it is likely they each evovled through fleet battle, legion modus operandi, and damage taking during their time in service.

 

This and perhaps many more factors make, at least in my eyes, it difficullt compare theem to one another...

[Whitelion]

wow i had never heard this info, i would love it if i could post the quote stating that dark angels have more Gloriana ships, otherwise please could you tell me where in the novel is the quote? I will try to buy the book and find it, it interests me a lot.

 

I'm starting to write a small TxT summarizing the quotes I'm collecting to give those approaching the 40k world for the first time a more complete idea of what wikia offers, especially compared to areas lacking such as firepower, shields, ship size and equipment.

[WrathOfTheLion]

This is fairly new information. It is in the most recently released Horus Heresy campaign book, Crusade.

[Brother Tyler]

...the fleet granted to the First Legion stood out among the newly-built Saturnine pattern vessels and the ancient ships re-awakened from the macro-vaults of Mars, for the First Legion were granted the honour of a tithe of those few remaining Terran vessels. These ancient craft almost all dated back to the years before Old Night, relics of forgotten technologies and lost aspirations of grandeur. Among them were to be found massive Gloriana class battleships, Promethean class cruisers clad in dense layers of void shields and weapon-studded Tiamat class destroyers, all far surpassing more modern designs in potency and made available to few other than the Emperor's own guards. To each of his other Legions he bequeathed but a handful of such ships, while to the First Legion He granted a fleet.

From this, it can be inferred that the First Legion had multiple Gloriana class ships, though none are named (at least, I haven't seen any of them named in my cursory reading of the book).

 

...the Dark Angels maintained perhaps the greatest fleet of all the Legiones Astartes, both in terms of sheer number of capital class vessels and in the impressive firepower of those craft. Just as with the many disparate Companies of the Legion, the fleet was also widely spread, most often operating either as a support flotilla attached to a Chapter or as one of the rarer deep range patrol squadrons. Support flotilla were comprised of the heaviest ships available, with the core of many being a Glorianna class battleship or other first-rate warship supported by one or more squadrons of cruisers.

And this quote makes it clear that the First Legion had multiple Gloriana class ships (yes, the second "n" in the quote is there in the book). And by "multiple" I don't mean 2 or 3 - it sounds as if the First Legion has many Gloriana class ships.

 

As I said above, I've only made a cursory reading of the book so far, focusing on the section about the First Legion. There may be some Gloriana class ships that are named in the rest of the narrative.

[RandomMarine]

What ever happened to the fist of iron?You don't leave a gloriana to rot no matter how damaged it is especially when your a Ironhand with your own private forgeworld and one of the richest sources of archeotech(medusa) in the imperium in your home system

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

...the Dark Angels maintained perhaps the greatest fleet of all the Legiones Astartes, both in terms of sheer number of capital class vessels and in the impressive firepower of those craft. Just as with the many disparate Companies of the Legion, the fleet was also widely spread, most often operating either as a support flotilla attached to a Chapter or as one of the rarer deep range patrol squadrons. Support flotilla were comprised of the heaviest ships available, with the core of many being a Glorianna class battleship or other first-rate warship supported by one or more squadrons of cruisers.

And this quote makes it clear that the First Legion had multiple Gloriana class ships (yes, the second "n" in the quote is there in the book). And by "multiple" I don't mean 2 or 3 - it sounds as if the First Legion has many Gloriana class ships.

 

As I said above, I've only made a cursory reading of the book so far, focusing on the section about the First Legion. There may be some Gloriana class ships that are named in the rest of the narrative.

 

I would be very apprehensive about concluding that that means the DAs had many Glorianas, as opposed to 'big scary battleships' as the line is Gloriana or other first-rate warship.

 

The only incidence of named Glorianas I can recall in the book comes from the Battle of Advex-mors (first conflict with the Rangda), where the DAs field about a hundred 'capital class' starships, which may mean Battleships or Battleships/Cruisers (older black books held to the historical definition where Cruisers aren't 'capital ships' but Malevolence explicitly switched to the BFG systems where 'capital' just means 'bigger than an escort'). Of those ships only 3 are Glorianas, the Invincible Reason, Paradigm of Hate and Truth's Razor (with the Paradigm being completely destroyed in the fighting). Plus this was relatively early in the Crusade, so it's reasonable to expect that this deployment represented a majority of the Legions' strength (they deployed 50,000 Astartes and were only still around 60,000 strong when the Lion was found and added the first generation of Calibanite Astartes to the ranks) and probably close to the peak of the DAs supply of 'shiny irreplaceable relic toys'. So it seems likely they didn't have that many more Glorianas.

[Brother Tyler]

"Many" is open to interpretation. I don't mean to imply "dozens" or more, only that the First Legion had more than 3 of the Gloriana class ships. We know that they had at least 3 Gloriana class ships from the passage you referred to:

The First Legion gathered a mighty armada for the assault on Advex-mors, some 50,000 warriors of the First Legion and another 100,000 support troops drawn from both the Imperial Army regiments and the Mechanicum Taghmata forces from nearby, as well as near a full hundred capital class starships and many times that of smaller escort craft...

 

...the leading squadron comprising no less than three Glorianna battleships: the Invincible Reason, Paradigm of Hate and Truth's Razor...

I think it's important to point out that those three ships were in the leading squadron. We don't know how the overall fleet was divided. It was clearly broken down into two or more squadrons and we have no idea how many ships and what classes comprised the other (non-"leading") squadrons. It's entirely possible that there were additional Gloriana class ships in the rest of the fleet (or there may have been none at all).

 

More importantly, the First Legion had previously reached 100,000 Legiones Astartes in strength:

The wars fought against the Rangda number three in total. The first of these campaigns, the assault and destruction of Advex-mors in 839.M30...

...[the title 'Hexagrammaton'] came into use throughout the Legion at some point around 830.M30, when the Legion first reached a nominal strength of 100,000 warriors...

That was nine years before Advex-mors. Admittedly, we don't know the First Legion's exact strength at the time of Advex-mors, but there's no evidence that they had been reduced to 50%. The battle of Canis-Balor may have taken place between 830 and 839, but Crusade doesn't indicate that the First Legion suffered a significant quantity of losses in that event (though they did lose Grandmaster Thrane and the overall battle). We might assume some level of attrition, but we can also assume continued recruiting and overall growth. Lacking any evidence that there were overall significant losses across the First Legion in all of its endeavors during that period, it's probably safe to say that the First Legion numbered around 100,000 or more in its overall strength at the time they undertook the Advex-mors attack. If that's the case, then they only took about half of their overall strength to that battle - men, ships, and materiel.

 

Moreover, if the First Legion force at Advex-mors represented only (or less than) half of the First Legion's overall strength, we might estimate that there were additional Gloriana class ships that were in service elsewhere, not present at Advex-mors. This is risky because we don't know that the First Legion simply took an even 50% of their overall capabilities to Advex-mors. Though the manpower is probably about 50% of the Legion's overall strength, they may have taken a more sizeable and/or more potent portion of their ships and materiel. Conversely, they might have taken a less sizeable/potent portion of their ships and materiel. Lacking complete data, we don't know.

 

While simplistic, if we assume that the Advex-mors force represented 50% of the First Legion's overall strength, knowing that there were at least three Gloriana class ships there and assuming that represented an even half of the First Legion's collection, it's not outside the realm of the possible for them to have had at least six Gloriana class ships overall. Working with the incomplete information with which we have been provided, we are only guessing. It's clearly safe to say that the absolute minimum number of Gloriana class ships in the First Legion's fleet was three. That number estimates that the First Legion took all of its Gloriana class ships to Advex-mors and included all three in the first squadron to attack. If we allow for additional Gloriana class ships in the rest of the fleet at Advex-mors and/or additional Gloriana class ships not at Advex-mors, the total number can increase. It may be safe to estimate six, but it could have been more.

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

More importantly, the First Legion had previously reached 100,000 Legiones Astartes in strength:

The wars fought against the Rangda number three in total. The first of these campaigns, the assault and destruction of Advex-mors in 839.M30...

...[the title 'Hexagrammaton'] came into use throughout the Legion at some point around 830.M30, when the Legion first reached a nominal strength of 100,000 warriors...

That was nine years before Advex-mors. Admittedly, we don't know the First Legion's exact strength at the time of Advex-mors, but there's no evidence that they had been reduced to 50%. The battle of Canis-Balor may have taken place between 830 and 839, but Crusade doesn't indicate that the First Legion suffered a significant quantity of losses in that event (though they did lose Grandmaster Thrane and the overall battle). We might assume some level of attrition, but we can also assume continued recruiting and overall growth. Lacking any evidence that there were overall significant losses across the First Legion in all of its endeavors during that period, it's probably safe to say that the First Legion numbered around 100,000 or more in its overall strength at the time they undertook the Advex-mors attack. If that's the case, then they only took about half of their overall strength to that battle - men, ships, and materiel.

 

I wouldn't say it's safe to say that, as the 1st seems to have had a rocky history of up and downs to the point that I'm not sure 'constant growth over time' can be assumed (and/or FW sucks at editing and keeping consistent numbers/chronology in their books). While you're right we aren't told how many men the Legion loses at Canis-Balor, it's clearly pretty bad. Described as a 'disaster', with the First's force suffering 'heavy losses' three failed assaults with 'mounting losses' and Thrane's final assault 'teetered on the brink of annihilation'. So it seems reasonable this could have caused a significant amount of manpower depletion.

 

Plus of course, the text around the Hexagrammaton says the Legion reached a nominal strength of 100,000, not that they actually were 100,000 strong (for example, the Death Guard under Mortarion had a nominal strength of 490,000 (7 'Great Companies' of 70,000) but of course this was never the case in practice). So that could have just been the official establishment of the 100th Chapter of the Legion.

 

Then there's the cited numbers of the Legion around the time of the Lion's recovery (apparently somewhen between 839 and 862 because he's absent for the 1st Randgan War but there for the 2nd). 20,000 is 'perhaps a third of the Legion'. Now while there's a tad of leeway in that language claiming 20,000 out of 100,000 as 'perhaps a third' is a bit of a stretch imo. The Legion only gets up to 'near 100,000 warriors' for the Council/Conclave on Gramarye after a few years of the Lion being around (famously a time of rapid growth for all Legions). Just in time to lose 90% of their strength in the 2nd Rangdan War ("for when victory was at last proclaimed...the Dark Angels were but a tenth of their old number"), even though iirc their losses in previous black books were said to be circa 50k, not 90k.

 

So yeah, I wouldn't say the evidence points to the pre-Lion 1st sustaining a strength of 100,000 as a matter of course. There's certainly not enough there to assume that Advex-mors was only half the Legion. Indeed the circumstances of the battle, with Vendraig looking for a big fight to redeem the Legions' reputation, could also be viewed as additional (admittedly circumstantial) evidence that this force did represent a majority of the Legion's men and materiel.

[Brother Tyler]

We're not talking "pre-Lion" however. We're only talking about the nine years between the time when they were just shy of 100,000 (830.M30, as identified in Crusade) and the Advex-mors incident (839.M30). The First Legion certainly suffered horrific losses during that incident, as well as additional losses from their actions from throughout the galaxy. If there had been a loss of about 50,000 brothers between 830.M30 and 839.M30, it's almost certain that it would have been mentioned in Crusade. The lack of such a mention implies that any combat losses were either nominal, or countered by recruiting. Even if we assume a reduction in strength down to 80,000 (using your 20,000), that still leaves 30,000 or so First Legion members not at Advex-mors. That alone gives the possibility of one or more Gloriana class ships not at Advex-mors.

 

Ultimately, though, the issue is how many of the Gloriana class ships the First Legion had at their disposal. We know that it was at least three. That's a very conservative number based on those named as participating in one incident. The scant information on that incident, however, means that there may have been additional Gloriana class ships of the First Legion at that incident that weren't named. In addition, there may have been other Gloriana class ships of the First Legion that weren't participating in that incident. The wording in the book makes the exact number of Gloriana class ships in the possession of the First Legion unclear, but it implies the possibility of "many" more than other Legiones possessed. Six is a very safe guess. The real number may have been lower (down to a minimum of three), but it could also have been higher. I'm not saying that it was definitely six or more. I'm only saying that the evidence allows for the possibility. Personally, even allowing for the First Legion to have four such vessels is significant (and an affront to my love of the VIIth Legion ). All we know for certain is that the First Legion had more Gloriana class ships than any other Legion, which is significant.

[Whitelion]

I think it is unrealistic to think about 3-4 Gloriana ships, the quote literally says "many Gloriana Class battleship", the term many is not indicative of 3-4, they should be at least 10-20 ships, otherwise it would not make sense to say "many" but "some".

 

Are there any references in the novel to battle scenes of the Glorian classes, or quotations that can help determine their power in combat?

[Lord_Caerolion]

As with so much of 40k, the closest answer you'll get from novels is "very strong".

[Whitelion]

As with so much of 40k, the closest answer you'll get from novels is "very strong".

It's true but we can draw conclusions about the ship's power in battle from the number of enemies it faces and the strength of the enemies.

 

For example, if he has faced 3-4 battleships we can deduce that he has shields and weapons 4 times higher than a battleship

 

If she conducted an exterminatus, we can deduce that she is armed with cyclone torpedoes or virus torpedoes

 

Based on what it uses in combat, we can figure out if it is armed with exotic and rare weapons, such as vortex missiles.

 

As an example, we know from the Lion's novel that the Invincible Reason in addition to being 28 km long, which makes it larger than the MAcRagge Honor, is also armed with DAoT weapons that are capable of simultaneously destroying the matter and soul of the targets

[Lord_Caerolion]

My point is that Black Library doesn't have particularly stringent authorial oversight when it comes to minutiae like this. Even the capabilities of Space Marines can vary drastically from one novel to the next. In some novels they're good, but not superheroes, but in Brothers of the Snake you have a single Tactical squad shown wiping out hundreds and hundreds of Dark Eldar singlehandedly.

 

In one novel a Gloriana might have a "power rating" of X, in another it might be half that, or twice that, depending on what the requirements of the story are. The authors don't have a hard and fast list of "ok, well a Gloriana is capable of A, and they're coming up against a Chaos fleet of B, so the outcome will be C".

[Commander Nicky]

 

I think it is unrealistic to think about 3-4 Gloriana ships, the quote literally says "many Gloriana Class battleship", the term many is not indicative of 3-4, they should be at least 10-20 ships, otherwise it would not make sense to say "many" but "some".

 

Are there any references in the novel to battle scenes of the Glorian classes, or quotations that can help determine their power in combat?

 

The Horus Heresy Book nine: Crusade do say "a fleet" but that is a very unspecified... compared forexample, an army is usually 5000-6000 armed troops at least but it can just as well be 200.000 or 1.000.000 troops or anywhere between. Just saying that it is very difficult to assess wheither we are talking 4 or 20+...

It is however fleet and a fleet is a large formation of warships - the largest formation in any navy - controlled by one leader. The other legions have "only" a "handful"of these ships, but that being said there where 19 (later 17) other legions and they too had some of these behemoths so there seems to have been a large amount of these ships, not counting the ones build later like the Invicible Reason and Pride of the Emperor.

 

As it is mention in Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination, that the Imperial Fists alone, at the time at the Horus Heresy, quote: "Aside from the number of its Space Marines no review of the strength of the Imperial Fists can be complete without testing the strength of their fleet. At the time Horus Heresy, the Imperial Fists had over 1,500 warships under their direct command and many more bonded by oath and fealty." quote end... and quote "...This naval might was the greatest of any of the Legiones Astartes, and was further enhanced by the fact that many of the warships were the largest in the Imperium." quote end. This, when ONLY looking at the Imperial Fists, would suggest that there could be many, many Gloriana battleships in service, properly build later in the Great Crusade and distributed throughout the Space Marine Legions as attritions took their toll...

 

To be honest I think the reason why Games Workshop does not list the navy strength is because it gives the player the ability to create their own story and such...

[Brother Tyler]

I think it is unrealistic to think about 3-4 Gloriana ships, the quote literally says "many Gloriana Class battleship", the term many is not indicative of 3-4, they should be at least 10-20 ships, otherwise it would not make sense to say "many" but "some".

"Many" is vague. 10-20 is certainly within the realm of the possible of what "many" implies, but that high of a number (20) is by no means certain.

 

"Many" must also be considered relative to the numbers possessed by the other legions, with most legions having only a single Gloriana class ship and a handful having two or three. I agree that four sounds like a low number, but that is technically within the realm of both the possible and the plausible for what "many" constitutes. I'm of the opinion that the First Legion had at least six Gloriana class ships, but it's very difficult to say the exact number with any degree of certainty. All we know for certain is that they had at least three, and that the actual number may have been (much?) higher than that.

 

What's interesting in this is that the First Legion had ships of other classes that were comparable to the Gloriana class and which other legions didn't possess. It would probably be better to leave this discussion about the Gloriana class, however, and take up those other classes in another discussion (most likely in the Age of Darkness/Horus Heresy forums since those ships appear to be confined to that setting). This will allow us to focus this discussion on the numbers and capabilities of the various Gloriana class ships.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think the implication of that combined with the structure of the 1st Legion implies even if there were many and they survived to M41/M42, they would be distributed amongst the successor chapters or stashed away somewhere.

[Rik Lightstar]

Terry Pratchett already told us that "Many" is equal to 4.

 

One, Two, Three, Many, Lots

 

Trolls have the answer, and the answer is Four, except when they don't and it's Forty-Two.

 

Rik

[Leif Bearclaw]

We're not talking "pre-Lion" however. We're only talking about the nine years between the time when they were just shy of 100,000 (830.M30, as identified in Crusade) and the Advex-mors incident (839.M30). The First Legion certainly suffered horrific losses during that incident, as well as additional losses from their actions from throughout the galaxy. If there had been a loss of about 50,000 brothers between 830.M30 and 839.M30, it's almost certain that it would have been mentioned in Crusade. The lack of such a mention implies that any combat losses were either nominal, or countered by recruiting. Even if we assume a reduction in strength down to 80,000 (using your 20,000), that still leaves 30,000 or so First Legion members not at Advex-mors. That alone gives the possibility of one or more Gloriana class ships not at Advex-mors.

 

We appear to gotten stuck in the weeds a bit here. The issue is 'what's reasonable to assume given the provided information?' with regards to both the DAs overall strength and how that informs fleet assets.

 

We know the Legion committed 50,000 Astartes and around a hundred capital ships, including the 3 named Glorianas to the campaign at Advex-mors. We also know that they lost one Gloriana, around 50 capital ships and 5000 or 10,000 Astartes (page 89 says 5k, p122 says 10k).

 

Is it possible there were more Glorianas at Advex-mors? Technically yes, as we aren't given a full OOB. But is it reasonable? I'd say no, as the narrative in the black books usually picks out Gloriana scale ships specifically (because they're big, shiny and the fandom loves obsessing over them, hence this thread ). If there were more than 3, I'd expect them to get called out by the text. So the question becomes 'what proportion of the Legion was present at Advex-mors?' I think it being a majority of the Legion makes more sense, and hence it also makes sense that a majority of the Legion's fleet was present (after all, a hundred capitals is all some Legions can muster on the eve of the Heresy) and hence the 3 named Glorianas represent a good chunk and probable majority of the Legion's total supply of these ships.

 

We know that Advex-mors was a big deal for the Legion. It was Vendraig's big push to turn over a new leaf and reinvigorate the Ist. So it makes circumstantial and thematic sense for the greater force of the Legion to be present, otherwise it rings somewhat hollow as a transformative moment for the Legion.

 

Secondly, we know that Advex-mors happens relatively soon before the Lion takes over (because there's only about 20 years between the first 2 Rangdan wars and he's found between the 2) and once he does, the Legion is around 60k strong including the first wave of recruits from Caliban (because the Lion's first command of 20k is "perhaps a third of the Legion"). If the Legion was around 100k before Advex-mors, there needs to have been substantial losses elsewhere for these numbers to add up, as the Advex-mors fight only accounts for up to a quarter of that (and that's also ignoring any new recruits).

 

But we also have the 'nominal strength of 100,000 9 years before Advex-mors'. Bit. How to resolve this apparent contradiction? You could always decide it's an editing mistake and [narrative you prefer] is probably what FW meant. But I think we can actually square this circle thanks it being nominal strength, not absolute numbers. If we assume that Astartes units were rarely at their full paper strength (especially with the GC raging at its height) then most of the issues disappear. In 830 the 100th Chapter of the Legion is founded bringing its nominal strength to 100,000. But few Chapters are at this strength, with the vast majority operating at somewhere between 60 and 80% of the their nominal strength (this looks to be roughly in line will real world figures for campaigning units), giving a total actual strength in the region of 60-80,000 Marines. So a majority of the Legion go to Advex-mors, making thematic sense. Then the losses of 5-10,000 in that campaign, plus heavy losses at conflicts like Canis-Balor and Karkasarn and general crusading could comfortably bring the Legion down to the quoted numbers at when the Lion took over.

 

So what does this mean for Glorianas? Actually I would agree a total of 4-6 at its height makes a lot of sense though I'd be more tempted to low ball it at 4/5 (6 is a lot when  most Legions only get 1, and we know the DAs weren't the biggest and meanest fleet (taking that away from the IFs would be a bad move imo)). What I was trying to argue against is assuming that they had an full fleet of them or entire squadrons all over the place.

 

 

I think it is unrealistic to think about 3-4 Gloriana ships, the quote literally says "many Gloriana Class battleship", the term many is not indicative of 3-4, they should be at least 10-20 ships, otherwise it would not make sense to say "many" but "some".

 

 

That isn't the quote though. The quote is "with the core of many being a Glorianna class battleship or other first-rate warship". So 'many' in this context is not referring to Glorianas alone, and hence is not really that useful for judging how many Glorianas makes sense for the Legion to have. Nobody's disputing that the DAs had a strong fleet or a good number of capital/first-rate/big and scary ships (tbh all Legions had this to some degree).

[UnkyHamHam]

I have been wondering as I have followed this thread, just how many Gloriana class ships do we know about across the various legion lore? Are there any instances of non Astartes commanded Glorianas? And what other "first rate" ships are up there in status with Glorianas?

 

Sorry it's a lot of questions. I'm now going to the Lexicanum and 40k wiki to do some research.