Boycotting Heavy Intercessor lists

[Doghouse]

My advise would be wait for the codex and first battle reports and if you have problems with them just ask someone on here that is using them what is their experience and what are their flaws. :)

[Scribe]

 

Its not cheating. Its competitive play. Cheating, is breaking rules. No rules are broken in taking a poorly balanced unit.

 

No written rules, hence it'd be officially sanctioned cheating. It's certainly dishonest (the implicit assumption of a level playing field) and unfair, so I'd feel comfortable saying players that do it would be cheats in that hypothetical.

 

 

No way. It's never the players fault if GW stuffs the balancing. Unless something literally breaks the game (as in a bug/crash/exploit in Video Games) there is no way you blame the player here.

 

Counter it, run it yourself, or accept your not that competitive a player. Thats the reality of facing any unit/hero/character whatever, in any kind of game.

[Lucerne]

 

 

Its not cheating. Its competitive play. Cheating, is breaking rules. No rules are broken in taking a poorly balanced unit.

 

No written rules, hence it'd be officially sanctioned cheating. It's certainly dishonest (the implicit assumption of a level playing field) and unfair, so I'd feel comfortable saying players that do it would be cheats in that hypothetical.

 

 

No way. It's never the players fault if GW stuffs the balancing. Unless something literally breaks the game (as in a bug/crash/exploit in Video Games) there is no way you blame the player here.

 

Counter it, run it yourself, or accept your not that competitive a player. Thats the reality of facing any unit/hero/character whatever, in any kind of game.

 

It kinda is if the player knows GW broke things and exploits that TBH. The players in that case know exactly what they're doing and are refusing to take basic measures for the health of the game or the spirit of fair play.  Like, sure, the players don't write the rules, but they're hardly innocents who had no idea, honest that the intercessors are poorly balanced, tHey jUST LiKE tHe mOdELs.

 

As for running it yourself (and the hypothetical has a distinct lack of counters), that thinking is just pouring gasoline on the fire and kinda why I think a community moratorium is better- because you just have the illogical end conclusion of LSM continuing to strangle the meta and the meta degenerating into Gravis all day.

 

I mean, here's the thing: the equivalent is literally pay to win in video games. I don't think it's exactly fair to say "git gud" is the right answer to a company intentionally fishing for sales by offering a paid advantage to a favored faction, especially with what we know about the release schedule for everyone else this and next year- ie: there isn't one.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Marshal Loss]

 

Even if they're broken as all hell, I'm not going to turn down a friendly game against somebody just because they're using them, just as I would expect people not to turn down games against me if (e.g.) EC come out and turn out to be broken as hell

Let's be honest: we're not talking a what-if for EC, we're talking That One EC Unit with Ridiculous Rules and suspiciously priced to go with it. But that's your call, I suppose.

Yeah but there's a big difference between wanting to use the new hotness & trying to abuse something that is powerful.

 

The overwhelming majority of the people I've seen commenting on the Heavy Intercessors like the look. I don't, but y'know, to each their own. Even if they turn out to be the most broken unit in the history of 40k, people are still going to want to buy them and build them and paint them and play them. They're a new unit for the most popular army in the game. It's unavoidable. Now if Bob the local UM player starts fielding a power army relying on masses of what is obviously a broken unit, sure, maybe don't play against him, or give him a nudge and tell him that his list is a little obnoxious and maybe tone it down a little. But a blanket "sorry bud I won't play against you because of this one unit" seems a little OTT to me. Personal taste.

 

This is all insanely speculative anyway, we don't know their points for sure yet. Best solution is just to try to cultivate the kind of local gaming community where people are mindful of each other's enjoyment. I know that's easier said than done at times but it is what it is

Edited September 13, 2020 by Marshal Loss

[Noserenda]

*snort*

For every Pay to win unit there have been at least as many godawful rule messes noone touches unless they really Looove the models, the rules team are not working to an agenda other than doing their best with a sometimes limited/distorted view of the meta and they generally fix problems as soon as able by their faq cycle.

I mean we see this basically every codex, does it need its own thread? Could we just have one designated "sky is falling" thread mods? :D 

[Lucerne]

 

 

Even if they're broken as all hell, I'm not going to turn down a friendly game against somebody just because they're using them, just as I would expect people not to turn down games against me if (e.g.) EC come out and turn out to be broken as hell

Let's be honest: we're not talking a what-if for EC, we're talking That One EC Unit with Ridiculous Rules and suspiciously priced to go with it. But that's your call, I suppose.

Yeah but there's a big difference between wanting to use the new hotness & trying to abuse something that is powerful.

 

The overwhelming majority of the people I've seen commenting on the Heavy Intercessors like the look. I don't, but y'know, to each their own. Even if they turn out to be the most broken unit in the history of 40k, people are still going to want to buy them and build them and paint them and play them. They're a new unit for the most popular army in the game. It's unavoidable. Now if Bob the local UM player starts fielding a power army relying on masses of what is obviously a broken unit, sure, maybe don't play against him, or give him a nudge and tell him that his list is a little obnoxious and maybe tone it down a little. But a blanket "sorry bud I won't play against you because of this one unit" seems a little OTT to me. Personal taste.

 

This is all insanely speculative anyway, we don't know their points for sure yet. Best solution is just to try to cultivate the kind of local gaming community where people are mindful of each other's enjoyment. I know that's easier said than done at times but it is what it is

 

Oh, sure, I'm not saying that the "please adjust your list a bit" shouldn't have softballing as the first step, not at all! Talking to Bob as someone potentially reasonable should absolutely happen, but honestly I don't see things ending in any way other than "I won't play against you if you bring this WAAC stuff" as the inevitable outcome in at least some cases- hence the OP.

 

And yes, it's speculation, but consider it a thought experiment for how to handle intentionally busted GW pricing for a new unit in general?

 

 

*snort*

 

For every Pay to win unit there have been at least as many godawful rule messes noone touches unless they really Looove the models, the rules team are not working to an agenda other than doing their best with a sometimes limited/distorted view of the meta and they generally fix problems as soon as able by their faq cycle.

 

I mean we see this basically every codex, does it need its own thread? Could we just have one designated "sky is falling" thread mods?

Doesn't matter if it's incompetence or malice- it's the pay to win units you just mentioned that are the ones the community has to actually live with- because no one in a friendly game will complain about the rules messes. (Mind you, agreeing to buff the rules messes is an entirely different conversation and a more fiddly one)

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[General Strike]

Once again, they're not as good as Custodes, and cost a little less than Custodes. Do you refuse to play against Custodes armies?

[Lucerne]

Once again, they're not as good as Custodes, and cost a little less than Custodes. Do you refuse to play against Custodes armies?

Custodes are their own microfaction, with that as their sole gimmick and helping their balance a bit. Space Marines...decidedly are not that. Also, we're waiting on the points.

 

Frankly, giving them bootleg Custodes is ridiculous in the first place, but if it's happened and if it's broken, why on earth is that specific powergaming choice healthy for the hobby to indulge?

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Marshal Loss]

And yes, it's speculation, but consider it a thought experiment for how to handle intentionally busted GW pricing for a new unit in general?

Probably best to frame things in a different way then, I get your point & it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask but throwing this particular grenade at an issue that lacks a concrete floor seems like a misstep to me (thus the somewhat thorny response from the community).

 

There's a thread floating around from last last year when Space Marines were at the height of their absurdly brokenness, might be worth looking for that if you're in search of people's thoughts on this sort of thing

[Lucerne]

 

And yes, it's speculation, but consider it a thought experiment for how to handle intentionally busted GW pricing for a new unit in general?

Probably best to frame things in a different way then, I get your point & it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask but throwing this particular grenade at an issue that lacks a concrete floor seems like a misstep to me (thus the somewhat thorny response from the community).

 

There's a thread floating around from last last year when Space Marines were at the height of their absurdly brokenness, might be worth looking for that if you're in search of people's thoughts on this sort of thing

 

I mean, yeah, I know there'll be lots of protests from the people lining up to buy this unit in particular, but there isn't really going to be a better time for this conversation since I expect it'll just happen over and over. I'll look up the last trainwreck of denial too, thanks for the info. 

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[General Strike]

I don't get it, they really don't seem like that big of a deal to me. They're good. But are they really anymore broken than what the wound update will do to World Eaters? They will have two wound Berserkers. Or Tau keeping overwatch for free, so are them having s5 rifles with marker lights, plus free overwatch broken? Even creations of bile CSM are S5 and have extra movement. These don't seem that crazy to me.

[Lucerne]

I don't get it, they really don't seem like that big of a deal to me. They're good. But are they really anymore broken than what the wound update will do to World Eaters? They will have two wound Berserkers. Or Tau keeping overwatch for free, so are them having s5 rifles with marker lights, plus free overwatch broken? Even creations of bile CSM are S5 and have extra movement. These don't seem that crazy to me.

 

The assumption per OP is that the balancing does end up making them suspiciously good and how to handle Gravis spammers in that scenario. They seem like they shouldn't exist, but as they do, what is the appropriate response if they end up being dubiously priced to boot?

 

Also seems like a lot of comparing apples to oranges there.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[General Strike]

Nah comparing troops is comparing troops. One may have more wounds and toughness. One may have special abilities. You can't tell me that these are that much scarier than 2 wound berserkers or plague marines, so if you're going to be afraid of playing against any tough troop, idk what to tell you.

[Lucerne]

Nah comparing troops is comparing troops. One may have more wounds and toughness. One may have special abilities. You can't tell me that these are that much scarier than 2 wound berserkers or plague marines, so if you're going to be afraid of playing against any tough troop, idk what to tell you.

Gravis has no place in the troops roster in the first place, never mind in a vacuum of modernized rules like we're going to get for the next year. They're an intentional breaking of balance. I don't see why you keep pretending it's acceptable to have Heavy Intercessors even in the likely scenario that their pricing is screwy.

[klisof]

Tbh I would just play against them? There is a post with some math hammer in the news thread showing that based on PL and data sheets there is not much difference to normal intercessors. If anything they are slightly worse due to lack of Sgt options.

 

I would want a few games against them using different 9th ed codex books before declaring then OP.

 

And trying to get them nerfed now will just make them unusable when the 9th edition codexes come out for more factions.

 

Too many people shout OP about everything new just because they don't want to adapt their lists or want an easy win.

[Biscuittzz]

 

Nah comparing troops is comparing troops. One may have more wounds and toughness. One may have special abilities. You can't tell me that these are that much scarier than 2 wound berserkers or plague marines, so if you're going to be afraid of playing against any tough troop, idk what to tell you.

 

Gravis has no place in the troops roster in the first place, never mind in a vacuum of modernized rules like we're going to get for the next year. They're an intentional breaking of balance. I don't see why you keep pretending it's acceptable to have Heavy Intercessors even in the likely scenario that their pricing is screwy.

 

 

According to........you? Complete hyperbole on a unit that isn't even released with full rules or points. I can understand not liking all the attention and great new units SM are getting but trying to scapegoat an unreleased unit combined with your ramblings is withling away at any coherent argument that you could make.

[Halandaar]

I guess you failed to notice all the new kits released for various factions over the years that are pronounced "DOA" by the community because they aren't competitive enough. Are those "pay-to-lose"? Is taking them in your list cheating (in the form of intentionally throwing games)?

 

Why don't you just chill out and see how they are costed, and better yet, wait until people actually play some games with them before losing your mind about it? When Primaris first arrived they were used because they were the new hotness, not because they were amazingly overpowered. It took 3 rounds of points reductions and two Codexes to get them to the state they were in at the end of 8th.

[Lucerne]

I guess you failed to notice all the new kits released for various factions over the years that are pronounced "DOA" by the community because they aren't competitive enough. Are those "pay-to-lose"? Is taking them in your list cheating (in the form of intentionally throwing games)?

 

Why don't you just chill out and see how they are costed, and better yet, wait until people actually play some games with them before losing your mind about it? When Primaris first arrived they were used because they were the new hotness, not because they were amazingly overpowered. It took 3 rounds of points reductions and two Codexes to get them to the state they were in at the end of 8th.

Dead on arrival kits are the opposite issue and trickier to deal with fairly (honestly, house ruling wouldn't be amiss there)- but simply put: an underpowered list isn't harmful to everyone's collective gameplay. Choosing to run a sub-optimal list isn't inherently damaging to the way people set up their games. Overpowered nonsense that won't be fixed for a year would be, especially with the inevitable calls of "well it's not REALLY broken", "GW made it so it's legal", "It's totally fine and balanced and I spam it because I developed a sudden love of the models!" etc etc muddying the waters.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Blindhamster]

I don't get it, people kept talking about how gravis was "just another suit of armour" and wasn't a relic or anything. Why does it have no place in troops.

So long as it's costed reasonably (around 30ppm seems reasonable to me) It's really not an issue, and you're knee jerking before we KNOW the points...

[Lucerne]

I don't get it, people kept talking about how gravis was "just another suit of armour" and wasn't a relic or anything. Why does it have no place in troops.

 

So long as it's costed reasonably (around 30ppm seems reasonable to me) It's really not an issue, and you're knee jerking before we KNOW the points...

If we want to talk lore, the lore is its own kind of comedy- with dark Imperium making it a mass produced, fast bootleg-terminator with no drawbacks whatsoever. It breaks the setting's internal logic just by existing, but even worse lore isn't the issue here.

 

In terms of cost, they should make it punitive to take- but this thread is, per the OP, about the worst case scenario. I'm sorry if the title didn't make that clear, but I do say immediately afterwards that this is describing a worst case scenario points-wise.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Lucerne

[Blindhamster]

I typically just play with friends so no, i wouldn't stop them using them even if they were super cheap, nor would i expect my friends to not allow me to. If it was a major issue then it'd be fine. Tbh i'll probably mostly play crusade rules in 9e, so power levels, and their power level seems fine.

[General Strike]

I mean, Kataphrons have existed in the game for two editions without ending the world. Weren't crisis suits a Troops choice in 7th for FSE? I just...I really do not see the issue. Autocannons and Multi-meltas will shred them still. Enough D1 attacks will still shred them. Why is gravis the bugbear here? Is it the T5 3W? Because a plague marine is just one wound less and has Disgustingly Resilient, plus more flexibility for armament. So...unless they are points cost less than PMs... like honestly...a squad of ten 2W zerkers coming out of reserves ripping your knight apart in one turn at 18ppm should be an indicator of what troops can do. The PL tells us these guys are going to be between 26-32ppm based off other things at that PL. It is super relevant to discuss other troops when worrying about these troops.

[Doghouse]

To be honest Gravis as troops is perfectly feasible, the original intention that was later reconned into being with the Horus Heresy was that terminator armour was to be the standard armour of the Astartes. Due to it's lack of mobility in melee and the sudden outbreak of the war interrupting production this never happened. Given the massive change in way things are developed and constructed by Cawl the idea of Gravis armour being taken troops isn't really a stretch at all.

 

All it does is highlight just how versatile the Mk X pattern is. If I didn't know any better I'd say the basic design was STC similar to the Rhino template.

[Lucerne]

To be honest Gravis as troops is perfectly feasible, the original intention that was later reconned into being with the Horus Heresy was that terminator armour was to be the standard armour of the Astartes. Due to it's lack of mobility in melee and the sudden outbreak of the war interrupting production this never happened. Given the massive change in way things are developed and constructed by Cawl the idea of Gravis armour being taken troops isn't really a stretch at all.

 

All it does is highlight just how versatile the Mk X pattern is. If I didn't know any better I'd say the basic design was STC similar to the Rhino template.

I mean, it's another nail in the coffin of "forget the promise of science and technology" and makes the Emperor and 30k Imperium look like fools for using Terminators at all when Cawl's leftovers can get explicitly the same result without any of the limited resources and lost tech needed for Terminators.

 

ie: why would anyone make terminators in the first place when you can get the same result by literally bolting a few plates onto power armour? Gravis shouldn't work as well as it does if it has to exist at all.

 

Deus Ex Cawl is a blight on all the stuff it touches tbh, but that's an argument for another time.

[Dam13n]

The core tenet of the Bolter and Chainsword is that it is a place for constructive discussion of the hobby. This thread has failed utterly in that regard.

As a result it is now locked.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Dam13n