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Troops preference - CSM vs Cultists - in view of updates

Chaos Troops

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#1
AfroCampbell

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In view of the likely 2W changes, plus changes to basic Astartes wargear, as well as the the way the Core mechanic is likely to influence list-building, do you guys think you will be running CSM or Cultists in your lists going forward?

 

Would love to hear your thoughts!

 


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#2
Xenith

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CSM may have more of a place, however we can assume they will go to ~17-18ppm when they get 2W, in line with marines. At that point, you're getting 3 cultists for each marine, as it was around 5th ed or so, and that's a difficult thing to balance, especially if people load up on D2/D3 weapons.

 

Basic CSM will be getting a native +1A -1AP on their chainswords, which will favour a melee build, maybe 10 in a rhino? I'm still seeing 2x 10 cultists as a low cost investment in holding backfield objectives. 


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#3
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It's not going to change my plans, I will still focus on Marines with the occasional addition of Cultists to support. Realistically Cultists are the chaff so this will always be the main choice with regards to what you're taking; if you want to fill numbers Cultists can do that and catch bullets etc. With Marines being better it makes their inclusion more meaningful which is what was lacking before.


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#4
Doghouse

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For me one of the most off putting aspects of chaos in recent years is Cultists have been more prominent that the Chaos Marines themselves. It's always been a case of looking at lists and seeing masses of cultists which while is fairly accurate to the lore is very off putting when the main attraction of Chaos Chaos Space Marines are worth fielding as much.

 

I think they need more options, maybe some of the Heresy era units to drive home these are supposed to be first and foremost a Chaos Space Marine army and not a cult list. I think the changes are seeing so far though are promising and enough to tempt me back to the dark side. Don't get me wrong I like cultists but I find myself looking at armies and thinking how is this a Chaos Space Marine list? I think it's similar in the same way a lot of loyalists over used Scouts. You sacrifice the flavour of the army.

 

I can see Raptors and Havocs becoming a lot more popular as well.


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#5
Brom MKIV

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I'll still take both. 2w chaos marines won't be strong enough to push cultists out of my lists completely. At least knowing what we know now.

That said if auras change for us that might effect my decision.. For example if a lord allowed full rerolls for core troops. That might be enough to bench all cultists.
Otherwise I prefer to take those 30-50 pts per squad and buy some real threats.
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#6
Marshal Loss

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Will be waiting for our codex to make any decisions on loadouts etc, but I'm a power-armoured man through and through regardless. My EC will be largely unaffected as they rely on Noise Marines, but I'm eager to put a solid amount of 2W marines on the board when playing my Word Bearers. Maybe the occasional sacrificial unit of bolter fodder cultists will be too good to turn down but CSM were already the core of my lists before the 2W range, and core they shall remain.


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#7
Doom Herald

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I feel like the point increase that 2 wounds will bring means that I will have to look into using Cultists as a cheap troop choice where as currently Marines are cheap enough that I would rather find a way to squeeze them in. I'm not saying Marines aren't going to be worth the point increase, my primary troops when possible will be Marines, but the separation in roles for Marines and Cultists will be more defined now.

I saw someone mention CORE units and I have to say that I wouldn't be surprised to see Cultists lacking that keyword. GW has been pushing stripping Cultists of everything that the faction generally gets, so it wouldn't shock me to see them as a non-CORE unit.

Edited by Doom Herald, 17 September 2020 - 07:31 PM.

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#8
Relentless

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Considering I already run CSM over cultists just for rule of cool, I'll definitely be sticking with that going forward.  The only reason I see to run cultists post Marine buff would be in blobs using tide of traitors to bring them back


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#9
Ezekyle_Abaddon

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I'm personally going to be running mostly CSM squads with a 2x10 man cultist squads for backfield objectives and screening. I've been toying with a list assuming that everything getting +1 w is going up by 3 points. 



#10
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I'm not saying Marines aren't going to be worth the point increase, 

 

I am.  The points per model has reached a tipping point where CSM would not be able to inflict enough damage to be competitive with other ObSec units.  Chainswords getting -1 AP is great and all, but only pigeonholes CSMs into being melee.  A Bolter is still a crumby Bolter.  You may not notice this against some armies that are going thin on ObSec units.  But, just wait until someone figures out a combination of cheap, tough ObSec units that can just play slap fight with CSM/Firstborn on the objective.

 

Cultists will still have a place as cheap ObSec and action performers.  I also think there is a place for the old Cultist blob and Tide of Traitors, depending on your build.  At the end of the day, 40 Cultists are not easy to remove without being prepared for them in advance.  With a support from a Dark Apostle or Sorcerer they get even more difficult to remove.


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#11
Brom MKIV

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Well its only 30 max now but agreed. My issue is what other units I can take with the points saved. Berserkers, chosen, havocs, warp talons being some of the main ones. I dislike downgrading my chaos marines into cultists but if it puts more specialist infantry on the table then I'll do it. 



#12
Doom Herald

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I definitely would have preferred basic troop Marines stayed 1 wound, but I don't see this as an entirely bad thing. Marines gained double wounds for about 1/4 their points. That puts them at twice as durable against single wound weapons, which I believe is the bulk of things they will be dealing with. True, they will be less point efficient Vs D2 weapons, but that also means that if your opponent throws those D2 weapons at them, they aren't throwing them at your bigger models.

Edit: Brom has a very fair point though. Looking at it as a minimum squad, that's 25-30 points you save by taking Cultists. Then again, with other models getting point increases, how many Elite infantry models are those points really going to get you?

Edited by Doom Herald, 17 September 2020 - 07:26 PM.


#13
Brom MKIV

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I'll admit it's an unknown at this point but I think we can guesstimate around +20%. I guess I'm saying my approach likely won't change. If there's enough incentive I'll take troop marines. If not I'll take my meqs as elites, FA, HS. Long as I got some meq bodies on the field to suite my tastes I'm happy.

At heart I'm a player that wants to use certain units like chaos marine troops but I can't ignore blatantly better choices. And that's on GW to balance. I'm actually ok with the DP and discos taking a Nerf. Now they're just ok and I don't feel compelled to include either.

#14
AfroCampbell

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My other thought that came out of the gradual creep away from cultists etc over the last edition or two, and perhaps someday soon with the Blackstone Fortress models floating around, and eventually the desire by GW to create a new faction for 9th edition at some stage, a "Lost and the Damned" chaos faction might be a good option for GW to consider.

I know I personally would MAIN a Lost and the Damned faction if it was rich in Traitor Guardsmen, Chaos Ogryns, Chaos Mechanicum, Psykers, Mutants, Gors etc.

I think there is a very very wide fluff basis and model basis to draw upon for it.

Come on GW... do it! 


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#15
Juggernut

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Certainly a cool thing to hope for, but let’s please keep the thread on topic.
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#16
Hannibal

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Cultists will still have a place as cheap ObSec and action performers.  I also think there is a place for the old Cultist blob and Tide of Traitors, depending on your build.  At the end of the day, 40 Cultists are not easy to remove without being prepared for them in advance.  With a support from a Dark Apostle or Sorcerer they get even more difficult to remove.

 

Exactly this!

 

In addition: if we get something similar to the current Red Corsairs rules (if I remember correctly these are the chapter that gives run and charge as well as additional cp if you run 3 units of CSM, right?) then I see some big chances for CSM crowd armies. 2 wounds, better chainsword, run and charge, additional cp, ObSec equals in one really good unit.

 

2nd addition: I can also see the 5 men squads with Lascannon / combiplasma coming back. Good ressilience, relatively cheap, good offense.



#17
Indefragable

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Cultists for show.

CSM for pro.

 

 

 

(or maybe the other way around). 

 

 

CSM for holding midfield, Cultists for cheap backfield or a distracting blob right into his face. 


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#18
Doom Herald

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In addition: if we get something similar to the current Red Corsairs rules (if I remember correctly these are the chapter that gives run and charge as well as additional cp if you run 3 units of CSM, right?) then I see some big chances for CSM crowd armies. 2 wounds, better chainsword, run and charge, additional cp, ObSec equals in one really good unit.


I've been doing something like this with Creations of Bile and Macrotensile Sinews. So far, 5-man squads in small games that can steal objectives out from elites. The drawback vs Red Corsairs CSMs it requires a strategem, but it also adds +1 to advance and charge to a unit that already has +1 to move, making them 3" faster. The strength buff and 1 powerfist also makes them able to compete with a 5-man squad of Terminators as long as they get the charge. Im not sure yet if that will be more or less viable when we see wounds increase and weapon changes.

Red Corsairs seem almost broken this edition. +3CP and advance and charge is very powerful, and basicly the go-to if you want to add a second detachment. Throw that on a unit with ObSec, and ObSec becomes very relevant. The way I interpret the rules, you even gain net CP if you have a detachment of them with 3 CSMs and your warlord is from another detachment.

I think the faction rules you play are going to push the decision on your troop choices a lot. If I remember correctly, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors have strats that make cultists much more useful in ways that make up for their not having the Legion Trait. Factions like Red Corsairs and World Eaters, on the other hand, I would think you would almost definitely want CSMs and Berserkers over Cultists. At the present, factions like Word Bearers or Night Lords it might be a little more iffy since there is no in-faction incentive to take either.
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#19
Dr_Ruminahui

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The only case where Red Corsairs bring a net positive CP if your warlord isn't from that detachment is if you take a patrol detachment with 3 chaos space marine units, in which case you gain 1 CP... so, not really worth it unless you have no limit on the number of detachments and/or specifically want to benefit from the Red Corsairs other abilities for the units in that detachment.


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 19 September 2020 - 02:17 AM.


#20
Doom Herald

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The only case where Red Corsairs bring a net positive CP if your warlord isn't from that detachment is if you take a patrol detachment with 3 chaos space marine units, in which case you gain 1 CP... so, not really worth it unless you have no limit on the number of detachments and/or specifically want to benefit from the Red Corsairs other abilities for the units in that detachment.

Or if you are running another CHAOS faction and want to use Chaos Space Marine units.

Chaos Knights, for example, would benefit greatly by gaining ObSec troops and 1CP instead of losing CP to do so.

Edited by Doom Herald, 19 September 2020 - 02:25 AM.


#21
Iron Father Ferrum

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I'm doing two squads of CSMs and one of Cultists for my battalion detachment.  The Marines are there for maneuvering into the midfield, seizing objectives, and providing board presence.  The Cultist blob will be sticking in the back to block off deep strike drop zone and hold backfield objectives, protected by the invulnerable save of a Noctilith Crown.  Late game, if they're still around, they'll get Tide of Traitors and go play stupid games in the enemy's backfield.


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#22
battle captain corpus

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I will always and always have done take Chaos Marine squads. Be it 5 man upto 20 man I can field a lot and I’m a firm believer in the point that I collect Chaos Marines...not humans.
Cultists have a place...just not a big place in my chaos marine army. :)

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#23
Arkaniss

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This has been interesting to read as a new Chaos, er, collector I suppose? Not played a game yet so can't really call myself a player...? teehee.gif

 

I have 20 Cultists and I don't plan on expanding that number. I thought either a blob of the full 20 or 2x10 would be all I need. This was planned out before 9th though. Is Tide of Traitors very useful then? It sounds good on paper but then it is just Cultists sweat.gif


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#24
Hannibal

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This has been interesting to read as a new Chaos, er, collector I suppose? Not played a game yet so can't really call myself a player...? teehee.gif

 

I have 20 Cultists and I don't plan on expanding that number. I thought either a blob of the full 20 or 2x10 would be all I need. This was planned out before 9th though. Is Tide of Traitors very useful then? It sounds good on paper but then it is just Cultists sweat.gif

Well, the smaller the game is the more useful Tide of Traitors is. It´s because Tide of Traitors is really only useful if

(a) your opponent has a hard(er) time to remove the entire squad which becomes even harder with low amount of shots;

(B) your opponent is in need to remove the squad of Cultists.

 

No matter what, your opponent needs at least 20 shots to remove your cultists and maybe 40 shots on average. If you can bring these bodies back, your opponent just has to do it a second time.


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#25
Doom Herald

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What I've heard people do with Tide of Traitors is use Endless Cacophony and Veterans of the Long War in concert with it. Arrive in rapid fire range at full strength, fire all shots with +1 to wound, then do it again. It's better CP economy with a max size unit since instead of 20 guys putting out 80 shots, you get 30 guys putting out 120 shots. Either way will cost you 3CP in addition to Tide of Traitors. It packs a punch, but personally, I'd rather use those strats on something like a full unit of Obliterators. I will say that even without the two additional strats, a surprise 40 shots from a 20 man squad popping up (and maybe near an objective) still has uses.

Edited by Doom Herald, 21 September 2020 - 04:42 PM.





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