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Troops preference - CSM vs Cultists - in view of updates

Chaos Troops

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#26
Snazzy

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Now that seems like overhandling to me.

 

Another option is blobbing on objectives, using the Nurgle or Slaanesh powers.  Any survivors can be ported out by Tide of Traitors.


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Builder of 5 previous SM armies.  Power Armor is addictive.

 

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#27
Sonoftherubric21

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Much akin to Iron Father, a good standard in a battallion is 2x10 Marines + a 15-20 man unit of Cultists. 

 

Feels like a solid overall place to work from, no matter the legion. 


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#28
MegaVolt87

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No one has said it yet- just imagine if cultists will move to elites because scouts moved to elites, thematic balancing TM. teehee.gif


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#29
Doom Herald

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No one has said it yet- just imagine if cultists will move to elites because scouts moved to elites, thematic balancing TM. teehee.gif


I'd take some sniper Cultists.
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#30
Lucerne

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Operatives pls


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https://twitter.com/...318432949927938

 

"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

"Agents of stealth and misrule they may be, but when the Alpha Legion unleash their martial might, worlds shake at their tread."


#31
Dr_Ruminahui

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Having cultists move to elite is akin to have grots move to elites - it makes absolutely no sense given their background.

 

Scouts, at least, have an "elite" role in that they spend their time behind enemy lines making a mess.  For the most part, cultists (at least those attached to non-alpha legion chaos marine forces) do not.


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#32
Lucerne

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Having cultists move to elite is akin to have grots move to elites - it makes absolutely no sense given their background.

 

Scouts, at least, have an "elite" role in that they spend their time behind enemy lines making a mess.  For the most part, cultists (at least those attached to non-alpha legion chaos marine forces) do not.

I mean, scouts don't really belong in Elites thematically, that's definitely the tail wagging the dog, so it's clear ridiculous shuffling around is still possible.

 

That said, given GW seems to dislike the idea of cultists in the first place for some reason...


https://twitter.com/...318432949927938

 

"The Alpha Legion has- in spirit if not in body- remained much the same since its creation."

 

"Agents of stealth and misrule they may be, but when the Alpha Legion unleash their martial might, worlds shake at their tread."


#33
Dr_Ruminahui

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Well, historically, scouts were elites - I'm pretty sure that's where they were in 3rd ed, anyway.  Its not until after they got their plastic kit that they became troops.

 

As for GW disliking cultists, I think its an over reaction to early 8th ed when players were making effective use of cultists in a way that GW didn't think was appropriate, and the cultists effectively displaced chaos space marines from competitive army lists.  To be fair, those complaints were shared by a lot of players as well.  That and the fact that there effectively isn't a current kit for cultists - while they can be purchased in the form of the 5 man kit and the Blackstone Fortress kit, neither of those are an efficient or effective way to produce a unit of them (as they don't generate all options, contain illegal options and/or have a number of "wasted" figures if you try to go all melee or autogun).


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 22 September 2020 - 09:05 PM.


#34
Doom Herald

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It should say something that cultists are/have been conscripts but worse and many players still chose/choose them over Marines. Rewarding you for taking lots of cheap troop choices was just begging CSM players to take cultists. I think, at the moment, Marines are fine but when the 2W point increase hits, we will see many more cultists again. As much as I want to keep my CSM squads, I'm going to probably have to run 1/3 of my troops as cultists just to keep points for the rest of my army. I would have preferred power armor troop choices to be one wound and the same points, while the other Marines go up. I don't see it as a huge thematic issue since other power armor Marines are either heavy weapon specialists, elites, or some kind of veteran, it makes sense they are made of tougher stuff. Two wounds was an overall good thing for the faction, but I really think it will be responsible for people running cultists like they did in 8th.
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#35
MegaVolt87

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It should say something that cultists are/have been conscripts but worse and many players still chose/choose them over Marines. Rewarding you for taking lots of cheap troop choices was just begging CSM players to take cultists. I think, at the moment, Marines are fine but when the 2W point increase hits, we will see many more cultists again. As much as I want to keep my CSM squads, I'm going to probably have to run 1/3 of my troops as cultists just to keep points for the rest of my army. I would have preferred power armor troop choices to be one wound and the same points, while the other Marines go up. I don't see it as a huge thematic issue since other power armor Marines are either heavy weapon specialists, elites, or some kind of veteran, it makes sense they are made of tougher stuff. Two wounds was an overall good thing for the faction, but I really think it will be responsible for people running cultists like they did in 8th.

 

Honestly I am still shocked there was never a proper cultist kit when this peaked or just was starting to leverage our wallets. I'm still convinced 4x5 CSM/ rhino's is the way for troops, then go top heavy with elite infantry. Sure you can kill the basic boi's, but what about those terminators? or those chosen, did you not see the bezerkers there etc. I am actually thinking of a DG patrol with poxwalkers + termi's for a cultist replacement unit and DG termi's are looking good in 9th. 


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#36
Ezekyle_Abaddon

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GW did have a 20 man cultist set for awhile. It was the 20 sculpts you got in dark vengeance + the character with the power axe and combi-melta.  



#37
Snazzy

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They've made a few kits, if you count Servants of the Abyss and Cultists of the Abyss.  


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#38
Doom Herald

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As Dr. Ruminahui pointed out, those kits are far from ideal. Cultists of the Abyss have atleast 2 of the models from each box as unplayable WYSIWYG (3 when you consider the champion's pistol isn't actually an auto pistol). The regular Cultist box has 2/5 as melee Cultists, which I think basicly no one uses. Further, there is no current WYSIWYG valid Cultist Champion model, let alone one with a shotgun option. Even the Dark Vengeance models (which I would LOVE to see come back) had one of the two Cultist champions as non WYSIWYG viable for the duration of 8th. This brings me to another important issue with cultist kits; there is no Flamer option in any current kit.

Edited by Doom Herald, 23 September 2020 - 01:50 AM.


#39
Gederas

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Well, historically, scouts were elites - I'm pretty sure that's where they were in 3rd ed, anyway.  Its not until after they got their plastic kit that they became troops.

Only Space Wolves had scouts as Elites. They've only ever been troops otherwise.

 

 

Truthfully, my Night Lords will continue to use minimal/no cultists (I currently have 0 for my entire Night Lords army). Because I'm playing Chaos Marines damn it, not "Chaos Cultists, featuring Marines"


Edited by Gederas, 23 September 2020 - 03:55 AM.

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#40
Closet Skeleton

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GW did have a 20 man cultist set for awhile. It was the 20 sculpts you got in dark vengeance + the character with the power axe and combi-melta.  

 

I remember it being just 4 of the easy to build sprues (aka DV with less variety) with minimal discount on the champion but I didn't buy it after making that assessment so can't say for sure.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 23 September 2020 - 09:55 AM.


#41
Snazzy

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Well, historically, scouts were elites - I'm pretty sure that's where they were in 3rd ed, anyway.  Its not until after they got their plastic kit that they became troops.

Only Space Wolves had scouts as Elites. They've only ever been troops otherwise.

 

 

Truthfully, my Night Lords will continue to use minimal/no cultists (I currently have 0 for my entire Night Lords army). Because I'm playing Chaos Marines damn it, not "Chaos Cultists, featuring Marines"

 

 

The rumor is that Scouts will go to Elites because it removes ObSec.  Scouts also tend to have a lower points per model, with the new datasheets suggesting they will remain 1W.  Space Marines are moving to a lower model count, and having Scouts remain your cheap, infiltrating, high body count ObSec unit undermines that.


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#42
Brom MKIV

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Scouts in elites makes sense for their direction. Cultists would be dead. Even guard wouldn't play infantry squads in elite and they are superior cultists.

#43
Snazzy

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We also get hung up on direct comparisons to Loyalists, when at this point, we've never been more different.  Loyalists can move Scouts to Elites because they still have 5 Troops choices.  CSM have two.  The CSM unit is more flexible in their roles than Tacticals.  But, they are still limited in comparison to the differences between the Primaris Troops.


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Sons of Horus

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#44
Espresso

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I think that the current setup I field is kinda optimal. I have two units of 5 CMS and one unit of 20 Cultists which begin the game alongside the Dark Apostle. 

 

Here is the thing. The basic CSM, be it at 1 or 2 Wounds, are a subpar unit so we should strive to keep them as cheap as possible and their gear a mix since their job is to run around the board and capture the objectives or sit in cover. The Cultist on the other hand, with the 5++ prayer of the Dark Apostle are my go to fire magnet and begin the game brazenly in the open.

 

What I do is to use the 2 CP stratagem to move my Cultists in turn 3 on an objective when they return on the board. They usually die, but at least they did annoy the adversary and eat some fire. 

 

Either way, cheap is the keyword. 5 CSM for objective taking, 20 Cultists for annoyance and movement shenanigans. Alas I have no argument for 10 Cultists, they die to quickly and this means that we cannot use their stratagem to return on the board. 

 

I have tried the CMS in Rhinos but they don't work. The board is shorter and usually with some solid advancing we can get them in position easily. This is why I favor the Black Legion trait, at least I have some shooting after I have advanced, albeit with a penalty. 


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#45
Jings

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GW did have a 20 man cultist set for awhile. It was the 20 sculpts you got in dark vengeance + the character with the power axe and combi-melta.  

 

If I mind right, that wasn't the Dark Vengeance cultists, it was just 4 of the snapfit Cultists. 



#46
Dr_Ruminahui

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No, EA is correct - there were 20 cultists in the Dark Vengeance box - split 50/50 between ranged and melee. However, unfortunately Dark Vengeance is no longer available, meaning that, unless they are bought second hand or through the lucky find at an independent retailer, they simply aren't available.

 

There was also the 5 man pushfit box, which is still available (at least in North America).  That, however, just has basic cultists (so, no champions or upgrade weapons) so again isn't ideal.  Incidentally, the cultists in this box are all cultists from the Dark Vengeance set, but put onto their own sprue.


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 29 September 2020 - 04:32 PM.

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#47
Doom Herald

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There was also a box called Cultist Assault, or something like that, that was a box with 4 sets of the 5-man cultists and an Exalted Champion that I think might be what was referred to.

They should have just done the whole set of DV cultists as a kit.

Edited by Doom Herald, 29 September 2020 - 05:31 PM.

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#48
Closet Skeleton

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The box art for the Cultist Assault box

 

https://elementgames...ultists-assault

 

Does not have champions or special weapons.

 

Dark Vengeance had 2 champions and then 9 sculpts split 4 autoguns 4 autopistols 1 special that got duplicated (the flamer/heavy stubber shared a body but different backpacks and weapons).

 

The still available cultist box is three autoguns and 2 autopistols sculpts from dark vengeance recut to their own sprue so its missing both champions, the special weapon guy, one of the autogun guys and 2 of the melee guys.


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#49
Dr_Ruminahui

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I hadn't remembered that box - thanks for the link, CS.

 

There were a bunch of cultists in the Execution Force board game (https://boardgamegee...execution-force), though I don't remember which sculpts - that said, good luck finding that now, as it was the cheapest was to get all the imperial assassins.



#50
Doom Herald

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I can't recall. They weren't special though.




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