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Troops preference - CSM vs Cultists - in view of updates

Chaos Troops

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#51
Irate Khornate

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I hadn't remembered that box - thanks for the link, CS.

There were a bunch of cultists in the Execution Force board game (https://boardgamegee...execution-force), though I don't remember which sculpts - that said, good luck finding that now, as it was the cheapest was to get all the imperial assassins.


It was the same sculpts used for the cultist assault box

#52
Llagos_Tyrant

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Personally, I take the stance that if a unit isn't available in a box of it's own that can field the minimum sized models in that unit, it doesn't have a kit.

 

The closest I would say cultists get are Genestealer Neophyte Hybrids with conversion work.

 

I'm interested in the idea of running 1x10-man CSM squad with 2 Lascannaons, 2x5man CSM squads with Reaper Chaincannons for getting up to mid-range, and a single squad of cultists that the opponent will ignore, until I drop my Obliterators behind them and use them as human meatshields with my Iron Warriors strats to keep my Oblits alive for multiple rounds of shooting.

 

I have no experience at 2k points though, and this is purely brainstorming.


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#53
Doom Herald

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Lascannons probably wouldn't be bad. With vehicles shooting in combat now, melee weapons just can't answer them. I had a game against GK running 3 or 4 of the Landraiders with the flamer cannons. Autocannons couldn't cut it and having Obliterators in deepstrike until turn 2 left them to wreak havoc. I went second, so units that could hurt the Landraiders were flamered to death and everyone else lacked the ranged fire power to hurt them. I was thinking I need lascannons or missile launchers instead of those Autocannons now.

Edited by Doom Herald, 06 October 2020 - 01:30 AM.


#54
ChazSexington

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I ran a 5-round tournament the other day, fielding both CSMs and Cultists. The problem is that anything the CSMs can do, another more points-efficient unit can do better, while a 30-man Cultist unit can be used as human shields (especially with Conceal) or 10-man units as a Troop tax. Get them a Benediction of Darkness and a Delightful Agonies, and you suddenly have 30 models that are -1 to hit with a 5+ FNP the opponent needs to chew through, unless he wants you to move up additional support characters, pop Prescience, VotLW, and Delightful Agonies. 

I use the Cultists as a shield for my plasma gun and power sword Chosen btw. Once the Cultists die, then we do either a Tide of Traitors or a Renascent Infiltration. 

There's a possibility that CSMs can be used as backfield objective holders or used as Reserves to take out anything that deep strikes, but otherwise I see little use for them outside a Red Corsairs list. I mean, my list of Red Corsairs can start with 16 CPs at 2000pt easy. Yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum!


Edited by ChazSexington, 06 October 2020 - 07:25 AM.

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#55
BolterZorro

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Interesting to note that with the actual price (pts) of tanks (repulsors/gladiators etc..) of the new SM codex, we won't see much of them on the battlefield especially with the interesting points price of their  infantry counterpart (heavy intercessors, eradicators, etc...) which in addition, can be easily buffed to death.

So, the heavy weapons like lascan in CSM seem less interesting.



#56
Snazzy

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If the Loyalist costs are any indication, we are looking at 18 point CSM and 6 point Cultists.  Being 1/3 the cost, when the point of Troops is objective control is huge.  I can see them Advancing onto an objective, or charging an enemy on it, and using their numbers to deny the Objective in the opponent's turn.


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#57
Ishagu

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I think Chaos will look very good when the codex is finally updated.

It's such a strength to be able to run an army that has both tough infantry as a core choice, but also disposable board control units.
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#58
Doom Herald

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As much as I hate it, I'm leaning towards Cultists are the future, save for a few <LEGION>s. Now that I've had more large games in this edition, it seems Cultists just do their job better. Creations of Bile and Red Corsairs offer enough of (or the right kind of) a buff to make CSMs still worth it and perhaps Black Legion. When the points increase hits, I think Bile and Corsair CSM will still be viable since you can advance and charge them with those armies and steal objectives with ObSec. BL I'm less sure of.

I'll have to look at the new points on SM vehicles. That said, vehicles loaded up on Flamestorm cannons are killer if you don't have a ranged answer and I believe they are getting a range increase. It's probably not something you'll see often, but because I went second, it had me wanting to quit by my first turn (and I never do that). Since it does 2 damage anyway, the increase to wounds CSMs will get will do nothing against it. Maybe Lascannons aren't the way to go because they are so focused on Vehicles/Monsters, but maybe a Missile Launcher will be good. Given that it has the blast rule and allows Flak Missiles, assuming that strat survives, it makes it an excellent versatility weapon. 48" blast bolter, mini Lascannons, or anti-aircraft.

Edited by Doom Herald, 06 October 2020 - 05:59 PM.

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#59
Celtic_cauldron

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Except for my Wordbearers who have as many mobs of Cultists as Astartes squads (because fluff...) I will keep on using solely Legionaries when things will come to my other Legions.

 

As mentioned several times by other Brothers I could not feel a CSM player (and VIIIth Legion to the core) if my tactical base is composed with mere humans rather than Space Marines.

 

Now with our renewed weaponry (chainswords, flamers, Reaper ACs...) and IF we get an extra wound on all CSM, that would be great!!

 

Celtic_Cauldron



#60
Snazzy

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BL I'm less sure of.

 

Assuming the rules stay the same, there is still a case for using both CSM and Cultists.

 

CSM because of Let The Galaxy Burn.

 

Cultists alongside a DA.  The Ld bonus helps, and BL are incentivized to take a DA for Council of Traitors, anyway.  I just wish DAs could be customized so as to take advantage of the Advance and fire aspect of the BL trait.  Cultists are ObSec bodies first and foremost.


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#61
Ishagu

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I imagine that the next Chaos codex will be a significant re-write in the same way as the new Marine book.

It's hard to say what will be the most viable. Simple strats can change the worth of a unit.
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#62
Llagos_Tyrant

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I imagine that the next Chaos codex will be a significant re-write in the same way as the new Marine book.

It's hard to say what will be the most viable. Simple strats can change the worth of a unit.

 

Fingers crossed. I think it will probably be more in line with the Necron book. Codex Space Marines have a lot of Core keywords, but I honestly think a lot of our stuff won't get the benefits of Core - most vehicles except Helbrutes, Daemon Engines, Cult of Destruction, maybe even just anything with the Daemon keyword.

 

I keep on wondering if GW is going to release Death Guard, then Thousand Sons, then maybe WE or EC as a separate codex, and then only update Chaos Space Marines after that. Would be a way to push new models and a new codex when CSM players are waiting and maybe by that time getting impatient.


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#63
Snazzy

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I most look forward to the possibility of more units being able to get Legion traits.  Daemon Engines, obviously no.  But, the old tanks, yes.  I'm less sold on the concept of Core, as it seems really arbitrary what qualifies.  New Warlord Traits are also an absolute necessity.


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#64
Doom Herald

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I wouldn't be surprised if we see certain auras like the GPs that affect DAEMONs not require the unit to be CORE. On the other hand, I don't think Daemon Engines will be core. I wouldn't be surprised if GW did do EC & WE and then CSM last, but I don't think they will. The fact that the FAQ done in the wake of the SM Codex doesn't give CSMs 2 wounds means that my gameplay is going to be frozen until they do. I guess I'll just be magnetizing things in the interim.

#65
MegaVolt87

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I think lascannons will still be very relevant to take. Loyalist dreadnaughts have core keyword, 9th vehicle changes AND the codex contemptor was buffed, redemptor still good etc. I am expecting loyalists to ironically shift to how we run NOW with infantry core with dread support as one of their more common builds. 


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#66
Surreal Cruelty

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I imagine that the next Chaos codex will be a significant re-write in the same way as the new Marine book.

It's hard to say what will be the most viable. Simple strats can change the worth of a unit.

 

Fingers crossed. I think it will probably be more in line with the Necron book. Codex Space Marines have a lot of Core keywords, but I honestly think a lot of our stuff won't get the benefits of Core - most vehicles except Helbrutes, Daemon Engines, Cult of Destruction, maybe even just anything with the Daemon keyword.

 

I keep on wondering if GW is going to release Death Guard, then Thousand Sons, then maybe WE or EC as a separate codex, and then only update Chaos Space Marines after that. Would be a way to push new models and a new codex when CSM players are waiting and maybe by that time getting impatient.

 

 

It might also be nice to NOT be one of the earliest codices in a given edition either.  Waiting is no fun, especially since they didn't give CSM two wounds in the FAQ, but neither is getting a codex, then having deal with the codex creep of everything that comes after.  Being released in the first 6 months of an edition is just as bad as being the last codex in an edition.  It might be nice to be a middle range release for a change.  I am certainly tired of Chaos marines getting a ton of really cool stuff right at the end of an edition (Traitor Legions, Psychic Awakening)  and then pretty much having to shelve a $50 book (or three in the case of PA) after getting 3-6 months of playtime with it.  At least for the moment it looks like  everyone who isn't Necrons or Loyalist Space Marines (who are getting theirs today, or supplements in the next three months) get to keep using Psychic Awakening stuff with errata until their new codex comes out.

 

As for Core, pretty much everything on foot that isn't a character will get it.  The exclusions I would bet on are Daemons (since you can't include them in your main detachments without losing your legion traits), Daemon Engines, and vehicles.  Helbrutes will probably be core, just like loyalist Dreads.  I certainly hope cultists are core.  I think the Possessed, Cult of Destruction, etc. are going to be Core.

 

Granted, and on topic, I actually have about 1 squad of actually painted cultists and haven't used them much.  Most of my finished and pained chaos models are Astartes.  I also haven't been playing much in the last couple of years, just collecting & painting.  It's going to depend a bit on what things look like when I do starting playing again.  I have a bunch of Escher models I planned on using a cultists that I haven't finished putting together or painting, the full line of the Servants of the Abyss which I was planning to put together as their own detachment...which I am not sure how that is going to work in this edition.  I would like to see the first renegade guard models released in...forever...get some use rather than just falling into "collectors dust."  I suppose they can be run as regular cultists, as there really isn't a functional difference between and autogun and a lasgun rules wise...but the renegade commissar with the powerfist & his ogryn buddy would end up joining the other renegade commissar as a technically not legal model due to WYSIWYG.


Edited by Surreal Cruelty, 10 October 2020 - 05:40 AM.

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