New article reveals our chapter tactic

[Gherrick]

 

 

This rule is far from "amazing". I have played this game since Rogue Trader. I know how HI works. Guess what? This isn't 8th edition any more. You HI with something your opponent can now attack it first before it gets to attack. You aren't free from attacks like you were in 8th. If HI remained the same as it was in 8th then YES I would agree this rule is "amazing".

The bolded part is incorrect. The Fight phase starts with eligible units of the non-active player, so one of your HI unit(s) actually do attack before the active player can do anything. Here's the exact wording from the 9e pdf (added bold for clarity):

 

Starting with the player whose turn is not taking place, the players must alternate selecting an eligible unit from their army and fighting with it (see below). An eligible unit is one that is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit and/or made a charge move in the same turn. If neither player has any eligible units to fight with, the Fight phase ends.

 

 

I was talking about the charge phase and I am most definitely correct. Charging units still go first in 9th. HI in the opponent's charge phase in 8th gave you free attacks. Not anymore in 9th. You have armor of russ and justiciars to muck about the unit activations but that won't be all over the table.

 

Something isn't adding up to me. I'm not sure why you are bringing up the charge phase. The only relevant part is that HI occurs then, which is exactly what causes the non-active player's units to be eligible for selection in the fight phase.

 

If the active player's units always go first in the fight phase, then what is the purpose of the text I bolded? Why would the general rule be to start with the non-active player, if not to allow for things like HI interrupting the charge? It's not intervening if it happens after, right? Please help me understand what I am missing.

[PeteySödes]

 

Something isn't adding up to me. I'm not sure why you are bringing up the charge phase. The only relevant part is that HI occurs then, which is exactly what causes the non-active player's units to be eligible for selection in the fight phase.

 

If the active player's units always go first in the fight phase, then what is the purpose of the text I bolded? Why would the general rule be to start with the non-active player, if not to allow for things like HI interrupting the charge? It's not intervening if it happens after, right? Please help me understand what I am missing.

 

 

If I may, I think here is crux of the miscommunication:

 

• Units that intervened on an opponent that charged previously were unable to be targeted in the ensuing fight which i believe is understandably pain point for Bulwyf.
• HI definitely does NOT fight before chargers. I believe this point has been muddied by the (fair) inclusion of AoR and Judicar rules into the discussion.
• The bolded "non-active player" part is important because it IS a change from 8th and why the AoR and Judicar stuff is very exciting for us specifically.

[Dark Shepherd]

Charges are declared/made

Heroic interventions then occur

Charge Phase ends

 

Fight phase begins with CHARGING units going first. After all units that charged have fought, all other eligible units (within engagement range) fight, starting with the player whose turn it is not

[Gherrick]

Ok, let's agree you are correct. When would HI ever be useful? Why would I ever put a character into a fight when they will 99.9%of the time become the primary target of the unit they just intervened into?

[TiguriusX]

Ok, let's agree you are correct. When would HI ever be useful? Why would I ever put a character into a fight when they will 99.9%of the time become the primary target of the unit they just intervened into?

When you have a judiciar or armor of russ to remove their unit from the charge phase (when the attacker fights first) and place them in the non charge phase (when the defender fights first)

 

Or

 

When you have CP to fight on death and it is worth it to annihilate them to hold the objective with the unit that was originally attacked but ignored so your HI unit could be killed

Edited September 30, 2020 by TiguriusX

[WrathOfTheLion]

Isn't the whole point of the chapter tactic that you can do it with units that aren't characters?

[TiguriusX]

Isn't the whole point of the chapter tactic that you can do it with units that aren't characters?

You try to attack and I HI with wulfen

 

I dont care if you kill the wulfen because they attack on death

 

 

Just 1 example of non HQ benefit

[WrathOfTheLion]

I get that, I meant more that to respond to his criticism that he didn't want to do it with characters. You can do it with other units if SW too, such as those hard hitters.

[Gherrick]

I get that, I meant more that to respond to his criticism that he didn't want to do it with characters. You can do it with other units if SW too, such as those hard hitters.

My main point is looking at HI from a general point of view. Yes, SW get some extra tricks that make it better...but HI is available to every character for every codex. Why would anyone else use HI?

[TiguriusX]

 

I get that, I meant more that to respond to his criticism that he didn't want to do it with characters. You can do it with other units if SW too, such as those hard hitters.

My main point is looking at HI from a general point of view. Yes, SW get some extra tricks that make it better...but HI is available to every character for every codex. Why would anyone else use HI?

 

 

There are plenty of melee beatsticks in the game that will HI because it gives them extra attacks and they laugh off your attempts to hurt them

 

Mortarion

Changer of Ways

Murderfang/Bjorn with duty eternal can shrug off many threats

 

They also might find it worth it to fight after dying to remove your key unit or keep the original charge target alive

 

Imagine it is turn 4.  You are on an objective with a troop and an HQ.  Your opponent charges in.  You HI with your HQ

 

Your opponent now has to allocate attacks between the unit and the HQ.  

 

Without any dice being rolled you have just impacted the odds of surviving and maintaining control of the objective for primary points when your turn begins.

 

If they end up NOT killing everything you likely stay in control of the objective and score.  Either your troop with obsec is alive or the HQ was ignored and fights twice to annihilate everyone and be the last man standing while he laughs at obsec not being a factor if they are all dead.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Would be worth doing if the unit has a high chance of survival compared to the weapons used, such as a character in terminator armor vs non power weapons.

[Gherrick]

Would be worth doing if the unit has a high chance of survival compared to the weapons used, such as a character in terminator armor vs non power weapons.

Sure, but what is heroic about a character intervening to kill off some chaff? I picture a character rushing in to save a squad of troops from being overwhelmed by a superior foe...which will then eat the character instead of the troop unit.

[Bulwyf]

Ok, let's agree you are correct. When would HI ever be useful? Why would I ever put a character into a fight when they will 99.9%of the time become the primary target of the unit they just intervened into?

 

The posters above this post are correct. You are starting to see my point. HI is nowhere near as good as people think it is. If you could get free attacks in HI like you could in 8th with no fear of being attack back by the charging units then it would be great. You put your character for instance to HI in 9th and it doesn't have the armor of russ or a justiciar to make that opposing unit fight last? Yeah...good luck with that. Your character will then eat all of the attacks from the opponent.

 

This is a very situational event to occur in a game where you as the SW player would be rewarded by this new HI rule. I can already see by some of the posts in this thread that people are already misunderstanding when HI goes off and when you actually get to fight with your unit that HI. This is not a free interrupt the charging unit(s) card that people seem to think it is. 

[Bulwyf]

 

 

Something isn't adding up to me. I'm not sure why you are bringing up the charge phase. The only relevant part is that HI occurs then, which is exactly what causes the non-active player's units to be eligible for selection in the fight phase.

 

If the active player's units always go first in the fight phase, then what is the purpose of the text I bolded? Why would the general rule be to start with the non-active player, if not to allow for things like HI interrupting the charge? It's not intervening if it happens after, right? Please help me understand what I am missing.

 

 

If I may, I think here is crux of the miscommunication:

 

• Units that intervened on an opponent that charged previously were unable to be targeted in the ensuing fight which i believe is understandably pain point for Bulwyf.
• HI definitely does NOT fight before chargers. I believe this point has been muddied by the (fair) inclusion of AoR and Judicar rules into the discussion.
• The bolded "non-active player" part is important because it IS a change from 8th and why the AoR and Judicar stuff is very exciting for us specifically.

 

 

Well said and thank you for explaining my point. If we still had 8th edition rules for HI then I would be howling at the moon in joy that every one of our units would get free HI attacks. But that is not how it works. Now that I know the SW get a special rule for HI it explains why they changed the rule for 9th. It would be potentially game breaking for SW.

[Bulwyf]

 

Ok, let's agree you are correct. When would HI ever be useful? Why would I ever put a character into a fight when they will 99.9%of the time become the primary target of the unit they just intervened into?

When you have a judiciar or armor of russ to remove their unit from the charge phase (when the attacker fights first) and place them in the non charge phase (when the defender fights first)

 

Or

 

When you have CP to fight on death and it is worth it to annihilate them to hold the objective with the unit that was originally attacked but ignored so your HI unit could be killed

 

 

Which, as I have said this entire thread, is completely situational. Would you rather have this or a +1 to wound on every roll the entire game? It isn't even close which is a better Chapter tactic. 

[TiguriusX]

 

 

Ok, let's agree you are correct. When would HI ever be useful? Why would I ever put a character into a fight when they will 99.9%of the time become the primary target of the unit they just intervened into?

When you have a judiciar or armor of russ to remove their unit from the charge phase (when the attacker fights first) and place them in the non charge phase (when the defender fights first)

 

Or

 

When you have CP to fight on death and it is worth it to annihilate them to hold the objective with the unit that was originally attacked but ignored so your HI unit could be killed

 

 

Which, as I have said this entire thread, is completely situational. Would you rather have this or a +1 to wound on every roll the entire game? It isn't even close which is a better Chapter tactic. 

 

 

There is nobody with +1 wound every roll of the game.

 

Blood angels only get that in close combat (i.e., situational).  Their situation occurs more frequently but is not as big of a game changer as ours.

 

 

We have a rule that lets us act out of the normal sequence of the game and has a direct impact on who controls an objective.

 

 

If you build with it in mind you will get the benefits more often.  9th edition meta is all about who controls the objective.  This army wide HI has a direct impact on who controls an objective.  Nobody else can do it like we can.  Blood Angels have a stratagem to counter attack 6" like we do but nobody else can army wide counter attack.

 

 

 

There will also be situations where it simply helps you win a big melee fight.

 

Your opponent can't swoop in and make a surgical strike on a vulnerable unit.  If you used proper positioning then your nearby units will extract a heavy toll from your opponent.

 

How do you take advantage of this?

 

Well...HI happens BEFORE pile in.  So you now have the ability to screw up enemy moves.  You simply HI and get into base contact.  You have now prevented models from maneuvering during the pile in phase. 

 

With this ability you can lock his key model with the thunder hammer in combat far away from your other unit because you used HI and went into base contact before he did his pile in.

 

 

Is it OP?  No.  

 

Can it turn a game if the situation arises?  Yes.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

I get that, I meant more that to respond to his criticism that he didn't want to do it with characters. You can do it with other units if SW too, such as those hard hitters.

My main point is looking at HI from a general point of view. Yes, SW get some extra tricks that make it better...but HI is available to every character for every codex. Why would anyone else use HI?

Heroic Intervention activates at the end of the charge phase and the unit just has to be in range they don't have to charge you or already be in close combat.

 

Where I see it being a powerful for SW units is when someone advances a unit to contest an objective. It's going to be difficult for them to contest it and be 3" away so we get a 3" move, and a close combat phase before our command phase to retake it.

[Chazzmos]

I don't think it's very powerful, and overall it's definitely one of the weaker chapter traits, but it is fun and thematic and when it does something it'll be really cool :D

[TiguriusX]

I don't think it's very powerful, and overall it's definitely one of the weaker chapter traits, but it is fun and thematic and when it does something it'll be really cool :D

It is only half of our chapter trait.

 

The WS+1 is insane now that the core rule prevents reroll aura from buffing HQs.

 

WS2 TH smash lords are the best in the game now (83% chance to hit)

 

Our nerfed HQ will be better than pre nerf marines with rerolls (WS3 rerolling 1 is 78%).

 

The blood angels can't wound what they cant hit while we seek a saga and get the best of both worlds

[Dark Shepherd]

And even if theyre AP -2 twenty point character thunder hammers are going to be especially good for us

[lonewolf81]

I am very curious about the '' get by '' rules for wolves because we have lots of different units from vanilla unlike BA, DA and DW. And also if they give us access to the generic psychic powers, relics etc The weekend can't come soon enough : p Edited October 1, 2020 by lonewolf81

[Ragnar69]

I am very curious about the '' get by '' rules for wolves because we have lots of different units from vanilla unlike BA, DA and DW. And also if they give us access to the generic psychic powers, relics etc The weekend can't come soon enough : p

I hope that our supplement comes so fast that we don't need get by rules ;)

[lonewolf81]

My bet is they will release 2xsupplements/codices a month (6 books for 3 months until the end of the year) , ours will most likely be in December which ties with the spacewolves black library release that was hinted plus the snow, frost, santa logan theme...

[Triszin]

Nov, will have 4. 3 supps, 1 codex.

Da are likely late Jan.

[Dark Shepherd]

I suspect supplements will roll out fast

 

Warcom article today had a wolftastic strat...dreads get +1S & +1A within 6' of a techmarine for 1cp...be still the hearts of my 2 Wulfen dreads

 

Strats in 6 themes/groups now which is handy, roughly which phases theyre played in

 

Article also applies named characters dont apply to the limits of chapter masters/master librarians etc