I just bought my first CSM box .... help me choose!

[AfroCampbell]

Greetings brothers of the Empire of the Eye,

I have just purchased my first box of Chaos Space Marines, going to go Black Legion (thanks Aaron Dembski-Bowden for turning me traitor with Khayon's overly reasonable take on the Black Legion har har).

 

My two questions:

1) knowing that they are about to become 2W, and the points changes likely to go with this, how should I build these? Do we know when these changes are going live?

? Heavy Bolters vs Plasma?

 

 

 2) how would you build your cultists, CC vs Shooty? 

 

 

Would love to hear your dark ruminations on these blessed issues.... 

 

 

[Kain Mor]

1. The changes go live when (if) we get our next codex. Given that all the 2020 codexes have been announced, the absolute earliest you can hope for is january 2021.

 

2. I prefer plasma because it isn’t a heavy weapon, but that could go either way. It’s worth noting that the weapon changes will go live for us and everyone else when the loyalist book drops. Rapid fire weapons also synergize with your legion trait better.

 

3. Honestly your cultists will die before they do much of anything. If you’re lucky they’ll camp an objective for 1-2 turns so shooting is probably ever so slightly more useful.

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Heavy bolter v Plasma

 

What do you plan to do with the unit?

 

If you plan on keeping it still most of the time, and shooting at infantry, heavy bolters are better.  If you plan to move with it, and want to get past enemy armour saves and/or put wounds on vehicles, plasma is better.

 

Melee v Ranged Cultists

 

In my opinion, nothing in 9e changes that ranged cultists are better than melee cultists.  Indeed, given that the second line of models who get to swing is much reduced in 9e (only those that are within 1/2 inch of a model in 1/2 inch of the enemy, where both were 1 inch in 8e), melee cultists are even worse than they were before.  Better to have them do some shooting while holding objectives and screening your forces as they are going to do even less in melee.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Dr_Ruminahui

[Gederas]

1. The changes go live when (if) we get our next codex. Given that all the 2020 codexes have been announced, the absolute earliest you can hope for is january 2021.

Iirc, they said they were putting out a big FAQ when the Necron/Space Marines codices come out.

 

If Chaos has to wait until January to get our buffs, that'll be a lot of annoyed players

[Kain Mor]

They have been very clear that the wounds adjustment will come in individual codexes. It’s only the weapon changes that go live all at once.

 

EDIT: (quote from article)

 

“And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhuman warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them”

 

That’s also January at the earliest, I would guess closer to February or March if I’m being honest.

 

Overall I’m not convinced that 2 wounds will even help that much when paired with the points raises that will come along. Points which already feel prohibitively high on many units.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Kain Mor

[MegaVolt87]

As BL, could go 2x5 units one combi plasma and one plasma gun in a rhino. Would play to BL strengths at mid range, you just need some extra plasma guns. 

[Kain Mor]

As BL, could go 2x5 units one combi plasma and one plasma gun in a rhino. Would play to BL strengths at mid range, you just need some extra plasma guns.

This seems like a solid idea for BL.

If you felt like you wanted to boost your anti tank or just protect your champions from overheat you could go the combi-melta route or power weapon as well.

[Hannibal]

THe thing with 5 men CSM units is: they won´t do anything notable most of the time. No matter what, there are always better alternatives.

 

Plasma toting units (ie combi-plasma / plasma gun) are outshined by Plague Marines which you can field as Elites. Better ressilience and up to 3 plasma guns per 5 men squad.

 

Similarly the melee focused builds: they are outshined by Berzerkers.

 

I wouldn´t use a heavy bolter even if it turns to a damage2 weapon. Reason is that the Gatling is still the better weapon. Comparable output against Primaris, better output against 1 wound infantry which you still see on the boards.

 

Well, all that said, you still want to run your 5 men CSM units? Then I´d go these routes:

 

• 5 CSM, Gatling, champ with Combibolter => good against any kind of infantry. Though rather stationary.
• 5 CSM, missle launcher, champ with combibolter => good against light infantry and some occasional threat against vehicles. Good allrounder.
• 5 CSM, melta, champ with combi melta => for some threat against vehicles, can run and still threaten vehicles. Rather mobile.

[MegaVolt87]

Except the problem is zerks and PM's are not obsec units in BL as they are elites. Also PM's have a new codex just around the corner which will likely increase their points. Melta is better on bikers and raptors, you need to go all in on rotors so you would need at least 3 identical units like that.- they catch a lot of heat. A combi plasma is always a good pick, even in that ML backline unit. I would go four units of troops (x4 of CSM or x3 CSM + x1 cultists). 

[Doom Herald]

If you're going Black Legion, plasma is a good way to go. Plasma will be a good flexible option against all threats and benefits from your legion trait if you want this unit to be mobile. If you're going to use them to hold objectives in or around your deployment zone, a Heavy Bolter might serve you better. The problem with a Reaper Chaincannon is the range and the fact that it's heavy, meaning if you want to hold objectives with it, you will have to wait on your opponent to come within 24" of you, which would probably put your unit in range of most weapons the enemy unit has and that's if they don't have longer ranged weapons with which to blast your objective holders with.

 

From a modeling standpoint, I would say you should magnetize all your options so you won't feel stuck in the future. It can feel intimidating to do, but it's really not that bad. I know Havocs have an issue where there aren't enough shoulder plates for all the arm options, but I've found that this is one of the very few places magnetic paint actually works. Put a good coat of it on the underside and it should stick fine to the magnet in the arm since the weight of the plate is mostly supported by the arm its self and you just need the magnet to hold it in place. Magnetizing will spare you a lot of pain.

[Xenith]

10 models?

 

I'd go:

 

1x5 plasma, combi plasma

1x5 Combi bolter, heavy bolter, or ideally convert to a chaincannon. 

[Verbal Underbelly]

 

My two questions:

1) knowing that they are about to become 2W, and the points changes likely to go with this, how should I build these? Do we know when these changes are going live?

? Heavy Bolters vs Plasma?

 

If you want a backfield objective holder I'd go 10 marines with two heavy bolters - then tool up a squad of chosen (four plasma guns and a combi plasma).

 

Heavy bolters are the best option by any means but they seem like they'll be fun to use now they're going to D2 - I guess they're starting to compete with autocannon now.

[Ezekyle_Abaddon]

The other question is if your running Abaddon or not. There are multiple ways to run him but I choose to run him with 2-3 squads of havocs and some marines. The issue with that is now some of your obsec units are now busy body guarding and this might leave your back field open. If you know your opponent is has deep strike units try and screen using come cultist and maybe have a squad of terminators in reserve and have them ambush any deep strike units. If they don't have any deepstrikers you'll be fine because most of their army's attention will be on Abaddon. 

 

This is usually what I do, however take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm not the greatest comp player. 

[BrainFireBob]

Anytime Elites are better, just double.

 

Champ, combi melta, meltagun, 5 guys, rhino- and 5 berzerkers in same rhino.

 

Or 5 CSMs, combi plasma, plasmagun, 5xplague marines, 3 plasma guns, same rhino.

 

All the Obsec, half the bodies

[battle captain corpus]

Personally I would go with your gut and rule of cool. My Black Legion has numerous squads, all with weird and wonderful combos and squad sizes. That way I can mess around as much as I like!

 

As for cultists.....maybe build two squads of 10. One close combat and one Shooty. Then play test how they feel for you and if you need to combat me them etc?

 

BCC

[Brom MKIV]

The main thing to remember is that csm are worse than their elite counterparts. Keep them cheap and use them to duplicate another unit choice as a lesser version. In my case the latest attempt is as an assault unit with melta. They are cheap obsec troops which is their main strengths. Coming out a rhino or dreadclaw they can still do work and maybe just as important they can attract fire from your more important units.

 

On heavies I can actually recommend the heavy bolter. On paper and math hammer the RCC seems superior and this was my initial thoughts as well.. but it's not that simple. The HB is cheaper and longer range allowing the unit to play a cheap defensive camping role. And to reiterate its cheaper.

 

If going units of 5 I'd keep the bolters and add HB. Or alternatively just go 6 chainswords and lurk. If going for a unit of 7-10 I'd suggest chainswords and combi meltas. Lightning claw champ if you l can spare 5 pts is a solid investment.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Brom MKIV

[MegaVolt87]

No benefit going 6-7 guys, you are just buffing the dmg they can recieve via blast. At least with 10 or more, its more difficult to drop them down as fast. That's the reason you never see SM players make 9th ed lists with 6 bladeguards, agressors, inceptors etc, they are always 5.

[Brom MKIV]

6 refers to 5 guys with twin chainswords on the champ fyi.

 

Blast is a consideration along with morale but in addition Marines just don't use larger squads in general. Not like they were bringing 6s before blast existed. It's a pricey min max faction.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Brom MKIV