Updated Weapons and You

[Cheex]

How do you think the new weapons updates will affect your World Eaters?

 

The ones that stand out for me:

1. The chainsword update really throws into question what the "best" loadout for Berzerkers will be. Chainaxes will still have their place against T5 (Gravis...) and T6, but we may find that chainswords become more efficient for the cost. Indirectly, it also brings bolt pistols back as an option.
    
2. The chainsword and flamer updates are making me seriously consider Raptors again, especially since theyre INFANTRY so can benefit from the Apoplectic Frenzy stratagem. Chosen are also back on my radar: mix a squad of 5 Chosen with a squad of 5 Berzerkers in a Rhino and you've got a very killy mob that can handle a variety of targets.
    
3. Power fists having flat D2 is great for Berzerker Champions, but lightning claws are now a strong contender IMHO (7 attacks on the charge!). All the other power weapons are so-so for us, I feel.

What do you think?

[Relentless]

Gonna have to see how it all plays, but I'll prob stick with chainaxes on my zerkers.  I think S6 is good all round and will be important when we're about to face a lot of T5 gravis units (hello heavy intercessors).  I'd rather lose the extra attack with chainsword and not have to worry about spending a strat to wound on 3s instead of 4s

[Khornestar]

I’m gonna continue running MSU with swords/axes and power fist on the champ. Consistent 2 damage works for me! Edited October 7, 2020 by Juggernut

[MadEdric]

I've 2 squads with axe/sword and 1 with pistol/sword. They have different targets, though it may work out to more pistol/sword squads after I see how they play out. 

My Raptors were always plasma wielding, found it better than flamers, but you are right, with the changes to chainswords, it'll be interesting if a more aggressive unit can work.

My two CSM squads use the heavy bolter already (I just love heavy bolters), so I'm happy to see it get upgraded. 

[Sonoftherubric21]

I have a feeling we will be seeing a big uptick in variable squad load outs. These changes make Warp Talons, Raptors, even basic troop CSM far more tasty and valid. Havocs, chosen, and terminators are a far bit sturdier, and the Cult troops will all look and feel far better with 2 wounds a model. 

There are a drastic number of changes that change our designs and what we can field that counts as effective, mid-tier, or even upper-tier load outs. I am very optimistic regarding chaos in the coming months, the Death Guard book will be a stepping stone until we see the full codex for Vanilla chaos. 

 

This unfortunately (much as I love theory-hammer!) will be heavily debatable until we see what precisely is changing within our book. Namely, mono-bonuses or Mark bonuses as well as strats and variable unit load outs. As well as the biggest issue: LEGION TRAITS

 

Chain axes I would be willing to bet are going to see some form of overhaul to accompany the new Chain swords to make them worth taking. (D2? More AP? More strength?) Could be anything. 

[dice4thedicegod]

Oh, chainaxe at D2 .... too much hope - now anything else will be disappointing! ;)

 

(They’ll probably just raise the strength by 1... very underwhelming for Berzerkers)

[Cheex]

Oh, chainaxe at D2 .... too much hope - now anything else will be disappointing!

 

(They’ll probably just raise the strength by 1... very underwhelming for Berzerkers)

 

I'm not sure I agree. S7 would be amazing against vehicles and monsters, especially if VotLW remains as a thing in the next codex.

 

Back on the topic of what we have now: the more I think about it, the more I like lightning claws. The extra strength of power weapons, extra AP on power swords, and extra damage on power fists make those better against specific targets but are wasted against many, whereas the extra attack and rerolls to wound on lightning claws are useful against all targets. Given that Berzerkers' main strength is "death by a thousand AP-1 cuts", claws really lean into this.

[dice4thedicegod]

Yeah, I just finished 5 lightning claw termies to redily butchers some corpse worshippers!

[Khornestar]

 

Oh, chainaxe at D2 .... too much hope - now anything else will be disappointing! ;)

(They’ll probably just raise the strength by 1... very underwhelming for Berzerkers)

 

 

I'm not sure I agree. S7 would be amazing against vehicles and monsters, especially if VotLW remains as a thing in the next codex.

 

Back on the topic of what we have now: the more I think about it, the more I like lightning claws. The extra strength of power weapons, extra AP on power swords, and extra damage on power fists make those better against specific targets but are wasted against many, whereas the extra attack and rerolls to wound on lightning claws are useful against all targets. Given that Berzerkers' main strength is "death by a thousand AP-1 cuts", claws really lean into this.

I agree with the thoughts about lightning claws but maybe not on Berzerkers. I think (with minimal thought) the spam of S6 chainaxe attacks and S5 chainsword attacks at AP -1 are still good enough for many targets. The number of S10 powerfist swings just seems too good to pass up. In close combat I don’t know of another way to do that without resorting to buffs. S9 is more easily achieved with our baseline S4 characters, and a +1 strength buff can come from various places. Using 2 buffs to take them to S10 seems like too much investment. Wounding T5 primaris and necron units on 2+ seems relevant.

 

I really want to say Warp Talons finally have a place, but their cost in the codex and any other potential changes will be what determines that.

[MadEdric]

I had totally forgot about Warp talons having 2 lightning claws. So an extra attack for them to boost them to 6 on the charge, with S5 to boot. So now I don't feel like I'm just letting a bad squad in because I like the models.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I'd bet on chainaxes going up to +2 str but World Eaters having a +1 to chainaxe dmg stratagem.  I think the death guard codex will give us a lot of clues about how the CSM codex will turn out. 

 

There are a few things we can glean from the space marine codex when thinking about chaos marines also. 

 

-Generic CSM will almost certainly be 17-19 points a model.  Anything outside of this range will likely not make sense. 

-Chaos Terminators will likely not see any points increases even though they will gain +1w. 

-Chaos bikers will cost around 30 points a model  and be very strong because of it.   

-Havocs will cost around 20-21ppm but wont likely be able to double shoot. 

-DTTFE will be reroll all hits vs imperium.  The loyalist equivalent stratagem "death to traitors" used to be like DTTFE but now is just straight up reroll hits.  

 

I suspect that endless cacophony will be noise marine only and fury of khorne will be zerker only.  These 2 stratagems are too good and eat up a lot of design space since you cant give models spicy new rules very easily if players can double stack everything with ease.  Obliterators are a prime example of this problem.  They cost 25 points per wound or something silly simply because you cant shoot twice and stack all kinds of buff onto them.  I think they will max out at 2 models per unit, have consistent weapon stats, and cost way less.  It is also possible that the red butcher stratagem will cost points instead of CPs.  So instead of paying 38 points for a terminator with powerfist/storm bolters you pay 45 and gain +1 str, and Blood for the Blood God.   

 

 

Anyone else got any bold predictions?

[Relentless]

Well if we're doing a wishlist/prediction....

 

I think (want) DTTFE changes to extra hits rather than attacks

There will be a double shoot strat that isnt tied to mark of chaos but probably only for infantry

CSM will be same price as tac marines even though tac marines get the benefit of doctrines (maybe there'll be a CSM equivalent)

Oblits will (need) to come down in points if they lose endless cacophony as they're currently not worth taking without it

Red butchers will be extra points rather than 2cp, though I think 45ppm is too much as Sanguinary suggested

I'd rather have chainaxes get -2AP instead of more strength or damage as those are kinda wasted on berzerkers

[crazy_tuco]

I’ve got two boxes of raptors/warptalons.  I’m tempted to try out two 5-man units of warptalons.  

[MrMetalArm]

Am planning on giving a squad of zerkers the chainsword/chainaxe combo, and also planning on making a squad of Red Butchers with Lightning Claws, sticking them in a land raider, and throwing them at anything that needs to die quickly 

[Cheex]

Interesting article up on Goonhammer about the changes:

 

https://www.goonhammer.com/hammer-of-math-power-weapons/

 

It's written in the context of Space Marines, but is mostly applicable to CSM as well.

[Khornestar]

Yeah I’d say that article is quite relevant. We have fewer options (no relic blade or equivalent, of course), but still worth knowing. Long live fisticlaws.