Jump to content

Welcome to The Bolter and Chainsword
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Metawatch Warhammer 40,000

Warhammer Community

  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

#26
Xenith

Xenith

    ++ NETATOR FEROCIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 11,664 posts

Solid article, in my opinion, and actually goes into list building theory and problems with most tournament games which bias the game towards 1st turn.

 

Nice to see a lengthier article on WHC but I couldn't help but roll my eyes at the example army list. Let's hope that spamming the same few units over and over is simply a product of the faction itself being limited and not an indication of how this series is going to shake out in the longer term.

 

I never thought I'd see the day when a complaint about a competitive army was that it features too many of that army's basic troops and transports. 

 

I wonder how they’re going to compensate for armies left behind in the codex release cycle, because we know they aren’t just going to say ‘write off orks until we see what their codex does’ in a warcom article.

 

Doesn't the article say that every army can have a strong build, right now, in the hands of a skilled player, then lists a few examples?

 

 

This is bad. There is no $ in tournaments. This will be a hole in their bucket and shareholders do not like holes. Ask any old hat fantasy player about sanctioned tournaments and game support. The community has worked so hard to make competative warhammer40k what it is. GW should focus where they excel. Models.

 

This was the attitude of the previous CEO (people are model collectors only, so we should only cater to this) and what did that result in? Flatlining stock for 17 years. The fact that all these other tournaments sprung up when GW stopped running their own is a massive, massive indicator that this is how people want to engage in the hobby. I'd also argue your point that there is no money in tournaments. Professional footballers disagree. Why do local hobby stores organise them if they dont generate sales?

 

 

Some interesting commentary in there. List analysis, discussion of the virtues of building a list to go 2nd and obscuring terrain is welcome.

This made me laugh, however:

"In the new edition, you’re often better off using a variety of relatively inexpensive, flexible units which can function autonomously. All the new Indomitus units, such as Bladeguard Veterans, Outriders, and Eradicators, fit this unit style perfectly."

Straight out the gate he states flexible units are needed and then describes 3 units which aren't flexible at all.

 

Good points - maybe depends what he's defining as flexible? I've been seeing plenty of people using bladeguard with success to hold central objectives, which is absolutely not the use I would have expected from them (bung in an impulsor, go kill stuff). Likewise outriders are flexible due to their mobility - they can deploy centrally then go hassle whatever objective they choose to.


Edited by Xenith, 09 October 2020 - 07:03 AM.

  • Black Blow Fly, Inquisitor Eisenhorn and BladeOfVengeance like this

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageXX

++ The Baalite Feast of Blades 2016; 2018 ++


#27
Evil Eye

Evil Eye

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,178 posts
  • Location:The Halo Stars
  • Faction: Chaos and Tyranids.

Ohhhhh this does not bode well. Whilst I know video games and tabletop games are not fully comparable, having played Overwatch and seen it decline into a meta-obsessed, poorly maintained mess of a game after the devs decided "We want the eSports audience" all I can see this doing is harm. At best it'll be useless "Product is in stock really good, buy it!" babble, at worst it will encourage everyone and their dog to run officially-sanctioned netlists in every single game because "Metawatch says so!".


  • Volt and Putrid Choir like this

ztbmByp.png

 

I come here to discuss and find out about Warhammer 40,000 with people of every ethnicity, sexuality, country and yes, as sickening as it is, even Eldar players.

"Guns don't kill people, people kill people, but monkeys do too, if they've got a gun." -Inquisitor Edmund Izzardos, on Jokaero.

 

(Formerly known as Squigsquasher)


#28
Putrid Choir

Putrid Choir

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 635 posts

Yeah, I don't think GW meets the gameplay standards of successful eSports games. You really need to polish your product before stepping into this arena.

Well, the memes have potential at least.


Haha couldn't agree more. Maybe if they brought codexes out much faster and actually balanced their game they could attempt this.
  • MegaVolt87 likes this

#29
Xenith

Xenith

    ++ NETATOR FEROCIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 11,664 posts

Curious as to why people think GW  are taking an e-sports route with this? Last time I checked models were physical things on a table.

 

A better comparison surely, would be the MTG tournament circuit, which seems to do ok, despite being just as broken/unfair/unbalanced with as high an high entry cost, if not higher than GW armies. 


  • Black Blow Fly likes this

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageXX

++ The Baalite Feast of Blades 2016; 2018 ++


#30
Halandaar

Halandaar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,885 posts
  • Location:Cambridge, UK
  • Faction: Pretty much all of them!

I never thought I'd see the day when a complaint about a competitive army was that it features too many of that army's basic troops and transports.


As opposed to their Elite troops and vehicles? I appreciate that my take feels stupid in the context of an army that has basically no options, but I guess it just struck a nerve with me to see the same thing over and over again, it instantly conjured up the whole "those are good I'll take 9" feel of spam that tournament style lists are rife with.
  • Warhead01 likes this

gallery_84244_11417_1545.gifgallery_84244_11417_3775.gifgallery_84244_11417_2850.gifgallery_84244_11417_880.gifgallery_84244_11417_1641.gifgallery_84244_11417_2552.gifgallery_84244_11417_215.png gallery_84244_11417_18892.jpggallery_84244_11417_30096.jpggallery_84244_11417_17741.pnggallery_84244_11417_22884.pnggallery_84244_16660_5008.jpg


#31
Putrid Choir

Putrid Choir

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 635 posts

Curious as to why people think GW are taking an e-sports route with this? Last time I checked models were physical things on a table.

A better comparison surely, would be the MTG tournament circuit, which seems to do ok, despite being just as broken/unfair/unbalanced with as high an high entry cost, if not higher than GW armies.


[My opinion] Eh, any type of deep comparison will be grounds for off topic but MTG is still not a great comparison. Cards are never rebalanced. They are either banned or not banned for tournament play, or for legacy/commander and various ways to play.

Video games can be rebalanced just like 40k. Characters/teams can change skills/abilites/rules, add or take them away, just like in 40k.

When they (GW) start doing this meta stuff themselves, it's going to be them acknowledging how unbalanced their game is and how reliant on the codex cycle/release their game is, which is something they tend to avoid.

#32
MajorNese

MajorNese

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,093 posts

It does feel artificial and forced, mostly the first half of the article - especially after talking about the awesome baseline profiles of AdMech (4+ armour, which is next to nothing in an age of Astartes doctrines) and the great success of Nids.

 

This might become more relevant when there are actually some codices out there, for now the main takeaways is the dirty tricks one can use this edition that didn't work in 8th.


  • Malakithe likes this

gallery_6494_6331_8260.pnghhoth_majornesehts27qojyj.jpggallery_48988_11572_4164.pnggallery_48988_11572_12518.pnggallery_48988_15465_8459.pnggallery_48988_15465_5251.pnggallery_48988_6285_13120.pnglockdownpaintingchallwgjra.png


#33
Jarl of Wulfen

Jarl of Wulfen

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 532 posts
  • Location:Delaware
  • Faction: The 13th Company
It's silly but I'm glad the picture from Nova has members of my club in it. Also, it's a picture of the AoS tournament in an article about 40k, lol

#34
General Strike

General Strike

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,681 posts
  • Location:Michigan
They should just hire the goonhammer peeps.
  • Kyoujin, Malakithe and Borky like this

#35
Xenith

Xenith

    ++ NETATOR FEROCIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 11,664 posts

They should just hire the goonhammer peeps.

 

Too much swearing for Warhammer Community, I feel.


  • Black Blow Fly and General Strike like this

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageXX

++ The Baalite Feast of Blades 2016; 2018 ++


#36
Captain Smashy Pants

Captain Smashy Pants

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,230 posts
  • Location:Perth, Australia
This is great for the competitive types. I like that with this edition, they've acknowledged that some people like myself aren't competitivly minded, by providing the Crusade system and by including campaigns one can take part in (see this month's White Dwarf), an while the latter isn't particularly new, it's new within the new framework. And also acknowledging that there are others who like to play competeively, fine tuning strategy, list building and coming up with gambits. Both crowds are catered for, this is fantastic.

Edited by Captain Smashy Pants, 09 October 2020 - 03:08 PM.

  • Dracos, Black Blow Fly, Scribe and 1 other like this
gallery_62972_14467_3390.jpggallery_62972_14467_13489.jpggallery_62972_14467_3390.jpg

I do find it hilarious that some people were saying the size of newer marine stuff looks great next to regular humans like Cadians, and then GW upsized the humans so they are the same height as marines again :lol: :lol: :lol:


#37
Hellex_The_Thanatar

Hellex_The_Thanatar

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,109 posts
Until players don't take losses until both players have a turn (a la apocalypse) the game will always be slanted towards people who have the first turn with the means to do as much damage from range or features to make it into melee as possible.


Though yes brilliant work around with the crusades.
  • Putrid Choir likes this

#38
Scribe

Scribe

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 6,828 posts
  • Faction: Khorne
The response to this is hilariously as expected. There are folks that look at the game competitively, and I promise if it was down to a coin flip well, that's not much of a game.

If it's not ones cup of tea, just don't engage with it?
  • Black Blow Fly and Dark Shepherd like this

DISOBEY

 

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


#39
Volt

Volt

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,091 posts
  • Location:CA, USA
  • Faction: Anges de Vindication

Curious as to why people think GW  are taking an e-sports route with this? Last time I checked models were physical things on a table.

 

A better comparison surely, would be the MTG tournament circuit, which seems to do ok, despite being just as broken/unfair/unbalanced with as high an high entry cost, if not higher than GW armies. 

The problem is that it encourages a cancerous comp mindset that'll spread through the entirety of the playerbase if it actually takes off and bring down the game. Especially when GW themselves don't really care about serious comp and thus never balance any edition worth a damn.


  • Gederas and Evil Eye like this

+Quod vult valde vult+


#40
smileyjim

smileyjim

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 147 posts
  • Location:Australia
  • Faction: Blood Angels
Esports? Peeps forgetting what the E stands for i think.
Once GW release an official simulation game for their tabletop product then we can start looking at the viability of 3hour games with a total inability for accuracy, crazy rules tgat even top players get wrong and forget... the list goes on.

More physical tourneys are great for the hobby as just like in the hobby theres a range of tourneys like the players. From friendly semi casual shop events to ultra competitive events.

I agree with those calling out the sanctioned nature of these articles, I think they should be taken with a pinch of salt.
  • depthcharge12 likes this

#41
chapter master 454

chapter master 454

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 3,248 posts
  • Location:Fife
  • Faction: Angels of Justice

Going to reserve judgement. If it just becomes advertising for their latest "buy this" then hard pass but if this is an indicatioin of how they are trying to improve their communication and ability to respond to their community.

 

Also...I find too much polish can ruin a game. A little bit of roughness can add layers to games, sometimes its bad sometimes it good but ultimately Roughness can be refined, polish can't so never have your product all polish and no where to improve; with how games work on updates being the indicator of how alive it is then always good to leave some roadworks up somewhere.


I Chapter Master 454, Chapter Master of the Angels of Justice, Warboss of WAAAGH Gubskul, Commander of a Catachan Regiment, Phaeron of a Tomb World, Shas'O to a Cadre and Princeps of a lance of House Taranis hereby pledge that I will not take up any further models til all other prior have been fully built and painted to tabletop standards. There is no time limit for this task, there is no deadline. My oath is to solemnly complete the armies I have now, to see it that they can have their glory. Paint will be stripped from the old in need, thick may it be like ceramite I will see it removed so that plastic and metal alike may see light of new paint. Models yet to be, boxed and in darkness will be assembled with due care and attention. For this task I am permitted to still buy the supplies needed to do my task but not one model more.

http://www.bolterand...one-model-more/ the thread to my oath. My own reminder.

http://www.bolterand...rk-in-progress/ my own chapter
"The objective of playing a game is to win. The point of playing a game is to have fun. Never confuse the two"

 

 

 


#42
Malakithe

Malakithe

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 416 posts

I cant take people serious who think Nids are in a okay place lol 


  • PeteySödes and Black Blow Fly like this

#43
Volt

Volt

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,091 posts
  • Location:CA, USA
  • Faction: Anges de Vindication

I cant take people serious who think Nids are in a okay place lol 

Hey they're not all bad! They just have a literal single decent list that relies purely on massed artillery spam, so they're perfectly ok!

 

teehee.gif


+Quod vult valde vult+


#44
NatBrannigan

NatBrannigan

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,149 posts
  • Location:York
Can you imagine the goonhammer team actually writing an article for Games Workshop? I hope that never never happens.

“And now over to Goonhammer for their take on the new Howling Banshees!
Trash, utter waste of points, next!”

That would never been in a Warhammer community article (for which I don’t blame games workshop one tiny bit) and would hate to see them forced to write about how amazing the new rules for the new model is. If I want advertising for the latest product, And I do, I read Warhammer community to see which codex will be the best ever next. When I want unbiased opinions I go to unbiased writers. Same with literally any product on sale on Earth.

#45
tvih

tvih

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 4,319 posts
  • Location:Finland
  • Faction: CF/BT/Orks/SoB/IG

Until players don't take losses until both players have a turn (a la apocalypse) the game will always be slanted towards people who have the first turn with the means to do as much damage from range or features to make it into melee as possible.

The first turn, as in going first? Depends on the army and battle size (though for tournaments it's often of course 2k) but it can be quite possible to hide just about your entire army. At which point going first is not great at all.



#46
Black Blow Fly

Black Blow Fly

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 14,802 posts
  • Location:Unto realms immortal...
  • Faction: TODESKOMPANIE

Interestedly enough Nick explains the advantages of going seconds and how to mitigate alpha strikes. 


=][= fortis Fortuna adiuvat . =][=
my 40k FB Page:
https://m.facebook.com/Terminus6Est
Terminus Est
Blood and Honor!

#47
Closet Skeleton

Closet Skeleton

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 2,590 posts
  • Location:Hertfordshire
  • Faction: Black Templars

 

Until players don't take losses until both players have a turn (a la apocalypse) the game will always be slanted towards people who have the first turn with the means to do as much damage from range or features to make it into melee as possible.

The first turn, as in going first? Depends on the army and battle size (though for tournaments it's often of course 2k) but it can be quite possible to hide just about your entire army. At which point going first is not great at all.

 

As long as the game rewards players by awarding points based on merely having their units in the right place on the board, the game will always be slanted towards the player who has the last word on where their units are placed.

 

Destroying your opponent's ability to steal objectives on the last turn isn't just an advantage of going first it can be kind of a necessity.


  • Hellex_The_Thanatar likes this

#48
Xenith

Xenith

    ++ NETATOR FEROCIS ++

  • ++ MODERATI ++
  • 11,664 posts

 

Curious as to why people think GW  are taking an e-sports route with this? Last time I checked models were physical things on a table.

 

A better comparison surely, would be the MTG tournament circuit, which seems to do ok, despite being just as broken/unfair/unbalanced with as high an high entry cost, if not higher than GW armies. 

The problem is that it encourages a cancerous comp mindset that'll spread through the entirety of the playerbase if it actually takes off and bring down the game. Especially when GW themselves don't really care about serious comp and thus never balance any edition worth a damn.

 

 

I honestly think you're overreacting to this. I read the article and didn't get the urge to go out and make an ultra competitive army, or enter a tournament. I'm sure plenty of others didn't respond that way - did you?

 

Players have optimised armies forever. There's literally multiple sections of this forum solely for the purpose of tweaking and optimising army lists. I don't see the outcome that you're worried about. 


  • Ktan, Oxydo and WrathOfTheLion like this

Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImagePosted ImageXX

++ The Baalite Feast of Blades 2016; 2018 ++


#49
Charlo

Charlo

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 21,061 posts

This is such a cool change of pace and step in a new direction for GW.

 

Maybe it didn't quite stick the landing, but it gave it a quality shot - looking forward to seeing it develops!


  • Dark Shepherd likes this

#50
WrathOfTheLion

WrathOfTheLion

    +FRATER DOMUS+

  • + FRATER DOMUS +
  • 1,399 posts
  • Location:South Carolina, USA
  • Faction: Dark Angels, WB & SW

I do agree that it has quite a bit of content and isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 

However, I would like to note that it does seem to contain a half-hearted refutation of the article Goonhammer did a bit over a week ago, where based on their analysis, certain core missions have a tendency to favor going first. In this, they basically try to pass it off as just the players being wrong, which I do not think is compelling.

 

Nick states,

"The player going second deploys very aggressively, hoping to get first turn but loses the dice roll. This is far more common, I find. Again though, this was an issue with the player’s ability to mitigate risk, not the mission itself."

 

However, missions were not mentioned in the context of that question, so I can only infer it is referring to the previous analysis done on the win-rate statistics of each of the Eternal War missions.

 

I find the points made are valid however, especially with the changes made in 9E, but that did catch my eye.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 10 October 2020 - 03:47 PM.

  • Dark Shepherd likes this

sml_gallery_48988_16308_4210.png






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Warhammer Community

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users