20 replies to this topic

[Gamiel]

(Have no idea if I’m asking in the right place)

 

I’m looking for suggestion on how to make a Chapter appear knightly or Knight-like? I'm collecting ideas and concepts right now for later use right now.

I have some ideas of my own behind the spoiler, with most of them needed to be combined to actually get a "knight" feeling, I have no plans to use them all on one Capter. The numbers are there for if I ever want to make a table out of it.

Spoiler

1. Very chivalric and noble.

 

2. Are the feudal high-lords of their homeworld, with each company having an area as their protectorate.

 

3. Allied to a Knight House.

 

4. A Chapter that don’t put neophytes in their own company, instead they are seconded to Chapter veterans to act as their squires.

 

5. A Chapter that works closely with one of the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas.

 

6. A Chapter that works closely with one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas. Pick one of the Orders or roll a D10: 1) Orders Militant; 2) Orders Hospitaller; 3) Orders Dialogus; 4) Orders Famulous; 5) Orders Sabine; 6) Orders Pronatus 7) Orders Madriga; 8) Orders Planxilium; 9) Orders Vespila; 10) Order Fenestrus.

 

7. Are seen as high nobility on their homeworld and are treated as such by the population, and the Marines themselves live as high nobility when not waging war, with all that entails of duties, rights and luxuries. What means with duties, rights and luxuries may be a bit different for the Chapter’s homeworld compared to some other Imperial planets.

 

8. As a group the Chapter’s Marines are refined in demeanour and lofty in ideal, educated not just in war, but in culture, philosophy, rhetoric and similar pursuits.

 

9. The Chapter espouse chivalry and virtue, but their sense of honour is tainted with cruelty, and sometimes even sadism.

 

10. Highly honourable, most of them would rather lose a war then win it using dishonourable means. What they consider honourable and dishonourable may be a bit different from others ideas of those concepts.

 

11. Above the Codex standard numbers of Bike units.

 

12. Protect a Adepta Sororitas shrine.

 

13. Closely allied with a Adepta Sororitas convent.

 

14. The Chapter is the caretakers of a Adepta Sororitas Saint’s remains.

 

15. A Chapter that use Combat Shields and/or Boarding Shields as standard equipment.

 

16. Has a strong duelling tradition, sometimes to settle a point of honour but more often to test themselves and their swordsmanship.

 

17. The Chapter prefer close combat over ranged warfare. Face-to-face with his enemy a battle- brother seeks to earn glory and respect and be sure that his foe is truly vanquished, fighting with righteous fury and the noblest ideals of honour.

 

18. Recruits do not take to the field as Scouts; instead they operate as Chapter staff and personal servants for the full Battle-Brothers.

 

19. Each battle-brother’s armour is equipped with a tilting shield where the Marine’s personal heraldry is proudly shown.

 

20. A Chapter that favour the sword as the epitome of a warrior’s arsenal and the incarnate focus of his honour.

 

21. The Chapter is highly proud of its colours and would never paint them over no matter the need of stealth or duty (like the Deathwatch), maybe they are willing to cover them in cloth but never to overpaint. It’s likely that the Chapter also consider it dishonourable to their colours to keep them dirty for any longer amount of time.

 

22. The Chapter’s Marines live for the honour of battle, and it is almost certain that the younger battle-brothers will abandon a standard tactical structure in favour of simply rushing headlong at the enemy.

 

23. They have an overriding sense of duty and honour, and are driven ever onwards by a strong desire to right the many wrongs that have befallen the Imperium of Man since the Emperor walked the stars. It’s possible that their idea of duty, honour and/or what’s wrong with the Imperium is notably different from others.

 

24. Highly honourable and believe that no slight to one’s honour can go unanswered. Often, as is the case with unintentional slights or insults, a simple apology or retraction is enough to satisfy the individual whose honour was impugned, but occasionally the insult is perceived as so grave or an accusation so unanswerable that the parties involved can only satisfy their honour through a duel.

 

25. Each battle-brother is assigned one too three personal squire-serfs who has as main mission to assist the Marine when donning armour, maintaining weaponry, and doing his mundane non-battlefield duties. Possibly are they themselves trained to also assist in combat when needed.

The points involving Adepta Sororitas are there as a reference to knights fighting for fair maiden, getting help from nunneries, and such - and as a reference to the Bretonnia's Grail maiden/damsels. The one about allied to a Knight House is there more as something fitting for a knightly Chapter and as a possible reason to why the Chapter is knightly (they could have been allied for a long time and the Chapter have picked up some of the Knight House culture)

Edited by Gamiel, 10 October 2020 - 07:29 PM.

[Brother Tyler]

Note that I've moved this to the Liber Astartes forum since it's about a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

"Knightly" is very broad. The basic Adeptus Astartes concept is heavily derived from "knightly" concepts. A number of Chapters are even more "knightly" than the rest, with three standing out - the Black Templars, Dark Angels, and Grey Knights. There are numerous others, however, that are no less "knightly" such as the Howling Griffons, Fire Angels, Iron Knights, many of the Unforgiven Chapters, and others. All of these draw upon European concepts of knighthood, but there are other versions of knighthood from the Orient (the Samurai of the Japanese and the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire, for example).

Looking at your numbered concepts...

Many of the concepts might be considered fairly standard, or at least not outside of the realm of the norm. For example, 1, 7, 9, 10, 21, 23, and 24.

It's not unheard of for a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to have some good relations with other organizations of the Imperium, or subsets of non-homogenous organizations (e.g., an alliance of sorts with a Knight house).

The servants of the Adeptus Ministorum generally don't get along well with the Adeptus Astartes because the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes don't normally subscribe to the religious beliefs of the Adeptus Ministorum. For a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to have as strong a relationship with any Adepta Sororitas as a number of your concepts suggest, that Chapter would have to deviate from the norm [for the Adeptus Astartes] and follow some form of the Imperial Faith (or have a warrior cult that bears sufficient resemblance to the Imperial Faith that the Adepta Sororitas will overlook any deviation). Some of your ideas regarding the Adepta Sororitas, if incorporated, will require some careful explanation or be presented in such a way that they don't appear to be defining aspects of the Chapter. For a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to be guarding an Adepta Sororitas shrine or remains of a saint, for example, would require some extraordinary circumstances.

One area in which I'll caution you is in trying to define your Chapter based on the army you plan on collecting. Throughout a Chapter's existence, it is likely that it will find itself fighting alongside other forces of the Imperium. The longer a Chapter exists, the more occasions and organizations the Chapter will fight alongside. For example, numerous Chapters fought in the Third War for Armageddon, as did numerous other forces such as various regiments of the Astra Militarum, the Adepta Sororitas, Skitarii regiments, multiple legios of the Collegio Titanicus, the Centurio Ordinatus, the Adeptus Arbites, and others. Just because both the Black Templars and Relictors fought at Armageddon, however, doesn't necessarily mean that they're suddenly allies; nor does it mean that the Silver Skulls suddenly have a strong relationship with the Order of Our Martyred Lady. Chapters can fight alongside other elements of the Imperium during a crusade or war of faith or operation or whatever without necessarily developing a strong relationship with the other organizations that took part in that event.

Similarly, the composition of your army doesn't necessarily need to drive some deviation from the Codex Astartes in terms of how your Chapter is organized. When a Space Marine detachment is composited, the officers will task-organize their force and its equipment based on their plans [and the limitations of what is available]. Under old lore, the 6th Company was composed of Tactical Squads, all members of which were also trained in the use of bikes. Your Chapter could employ bikes in higher numbers than normal, or it could be that your army includes significant elements from the 6th Company.

For my part, I recommend subtlety. All you need is a few small touches to bring a suitably "knightly" theme to your army. If you incorporate too much, it will look heavy-handed and over-themed (like the wolfiness of the Space Wolves or the bloodiness of the Blood Angels). The list you've provided could probably be pared down a bit - everything on it would work, but too many of the ideas combined would be a bit too much.

[MetalMammoth]

I guess you've got a lot of good ideas by yourself.

 

One thing that's off, is hanging around the Adepta Sororitas to "protect the fair maidens", because said "fair maidens" would burn you as heretics if they got a whiff of your notion of them needing any protection.

They'd treat it as an insult, that they are incapable of protecting themselves, and in turn incapable of doing the Emperor's holy work.

 

At any rate, Astartes typically show no sexual drive, so they'd be wholly disinterested in fair maidens, and at best see such ladies as liabilities. Never forget, his ascension complete, a battle brother is very different from a baseline human.

 

The other, is space marines having enough free time to live the luxorious lives of nobles.

For one thing, a space marine who's not in a battle or at combat practice, or on his way to a battle or combat practice is a space marine wasted, and for another, such laxaty invites weakness and temptation to many heresies.

 

Then there's the fact that space marines in general are already knights in space.

 

Look to the Dark Angels with their secretive orders, or to the Black Templars with their endless crusade. Extra-Knight themed Astartes, done right.

Edited by MetalMammoth, 09 October 2020 - 08:10 PM.

[Filius]

Wow … you've got more than enough ideas and aspects to form a knightly chapter, I would say. If that were my idea, I'd boil it down a bit and focus on a few of those things. And after that I'd be looking for some Colour Scheme. I find the Uniforms and Heraldry of the Empire most inspiring for all things medieval and knightly.

 

One thing, I always try to add to my ideas of homebrew chapters is a dark side. When you look at pretty much any canon chapter, even (or especially) the knightly ones, then you will find something dark (and most often un-knightly) within them. Space Marines are not only Knights in Space, they are also Vampires in Space (Blood Angles), Fanatics in Space (Black Templats), Barbarians in Space (White Scars), Goths in Space (Raven Guard), Masochists in Space (Imperial Fists), Traitors Secretkeeper in Space (Dark Angels), Bureaucrat in Space (Ultramarines), Technocrats in Space (Iron Hans), Werewolves in Space (Space Wolves), Maniacs in Space (Flesh Tearers), Sociopaths ins Space (Carcharodons), Necrophilists in Space (Mortifactors) … I think that the dark side of a chapter is what makes them fit into the grimdark of the setting.

 

Plus: Never forget, that the things we consider knights and knightly today have hardly anything in common with the historical reality. Our ideas of knight are the continuation of a romanticized image of the Middle Ages that was created during the 18th and 19th century. It's totally okay to use that in a ficitonal context like Warhammer 40.000 which romanticizes a lot by itself. The reason I mention this, is because of something Jes Goodwin mentioned in one of the Vocasts (I think it was in his first) … when they planned the fluff of the Imperial Knight, they tried to look at Knighthood from a more than 10.000 years perspective in which the initial ideas that were there at the founding of the Imperial Knights, have been gone through ages and ages of reinterpretation and reimagining (within the setting), so that in M39, there is a distorted image of a distorted image of a distorted image. So may you may want to think about how your chapter and it's idea of knighthood changed during the time of it's existence …

 

[Ace Debonair]

I'd humbly suggest the idea that who your Chapter is friends/allies with has nothing to do with them being knightly.

A focus on honour and duty is a much better way of emphasizing your Chapter's knightly aspect than being followed around by Sisters or Imperial Knights.

 

I like the idea they'd rather lose a battle with honour than win through 'dishonourable' means, although what counts as dishonourable for Space Marines will need some definition.

 

Equally, a focus on bikes is a good fit for knights - look at the Dark Angels' Ravenwing, for example.

Everything you've got listed from point 20 onward would be a good fit, in my estimation.

 

In addition, having the population of their homeworld treat them as high nobility is a good idea, as is having your marines be slightly haughty in demeanour, but I wouldn't make it a huge focus of the Chapter.

 

Visually speaking, Black Templars and Dark Angels have lots of suitably knightly bits to draw on.

I'd recommend the use of at least one bright colour for the Chapter - a sense of pride in one's heraldry is a good knightly attribute, and a great excuse to go for something colourful.

 

Just one chap's opinion, of course, and you might already have some very different ideas in mind - if so, feel free to disregard my ramblings.

Looking forward to seeing how your Chapter develops, in any case!

[Sete]

You dont need to have tabards, or crusader helms for them to be "knights"

For example I'm doing my Knightly inspired chapter by 16th century Conquerors and Navigators.

Plate Armour, fancy plume hats, Greatswords, and yet with a "vannila" look, no tabards, no crusader helms, no candles etc.

They are less of Religious Knights and more of Nobility Knights, if you know what I mean.

Edited by Sete, 10 October 2020 - 02:08 PM.

[WrathOfTheLion]

There are many aspects as well in some of the established chapters, so there is a lot you can do with it. Many of the knightly chapters, such as the Dark Angels, are a combination of various aspects.

 

For example, the Ravenwing has a strong Polish Winged Hussar aesthetic for its bikes, which were mostly used centuries after the medieval era. There's all sorts of wargear options available as well that aren't necessarily swords. The RW black knights use warhammers in the form of the corvus hammer, which would be an extremely common weapon in the medieval era. Their winged helmets are from the Teutonic orders, and their overall aesthetic is Arthurian, so these are all aspects that end up ranging across hundreds or even over a thousand years of history.

 

So you could consider various other areas across many time periods, such as the Holy Roman Empire, the Commonwealth of Poland and Lithuania, etc. to influence any aesthetics on cavalry, etc. These don't necessarily all need to be from the same time period or region either, as long as they're blended well enough across the various units.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 10 October 2020 - 02:22 PM.

[StratoKhan]

As others have mentioned, many of the themes you list are found in other Chapters. So you are definitely not doing anything wrong.

 

From old background, we know that each squad of Space Marines has an artificer that is tasked with maintaining, decorating and customizing the battle-brothers' wargear. Chapter bondsmen or serfs wait on the Marines when they are not in battle. Black Templar squads are composed of Initiates (full battle-brothers) accompanied by Neophytes (​Space Marines in training). Imperial Fists and other Space Marines hold tournaments or their interactions with other battle brothers are coloured by honour duels of varying kinds (IF and successor Chapters Feast of Blades, Astral Knights - btw also IF successors, etc).

 

If you want to give your Chapter a distinctive character, my suggestion would be to pick two or three of the themes you've listed - the ones that work best together. By picking fewer aspects and focusing most on those ones, you're building them into strong elements that can enhance the 'knightly' aspect. To have 25 different concepts and work on them all is a lot harder to pull off, and you risk giving the reader the feeling that it's just a list of cool stuff you've massed together.

 

My final suggestion would be to avoid having extremely strong links with the Adepta Sororitas, who are a military order themselves and are part of the Ecclesiarchy. In my view, even if they could get over the fact that most Space Marines don't worship the Emperor as a god, the SoB would not enjoy the 'oversight' from a Chapter of Space Marines guarding one of their holy places. For me this theme would be the hardest to pull off without breaking immersion with the rest of the 40k background. In fact, maybe a more interesting direction would be to explore a (mild or intense) rivalry between your Chapter and a particular Order, maybe borne from a specific campaign or incident. Alliances are good, but rivalries are probably more interesting.

 

Try and refocus on fewer aspects, the rest will come naturally.

[Gamiel]

Note that I've moved this to the Liber Astartes forum since it's about a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes.

Thanks
 

"Knightly" is very broad. The basic Adeptus Astartes concept is heavily derived from "knightly" concepts. A number of Chapters are even more "knightly" than the rest, with three standing out - the Black Templars, Dark Angels, and Grey Knights. There are numerous others, however, that are no less "knightly" such as the Howling Griffons, Fire Angels, Iron Knights, many of the Unforgiven Chapters, and others. All of these draw upon European concepts of knighthood, but there are other versions of knighthood from the Orient (the Samurai of the Japanese and the Janissaries of the Ottoman Empire, for example).

Have to ask, how are the Janissaries knight like? To my understanding was they something ratter different.

 

Looking at your numbered concepts...

Many of the concepts might be considered fairly standard, or at least not outside of the realm of the norm. For example, 1, 7, 9, 10, 21, 23, and 24.

It's not unheard of for a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to have some good relations with other organizations of the Imperium, or subsets of non-homogenous organizations (e.g., an alliance of sorts with a Knight house).

The servants of the Adeptus Ministorum generally don't get along well with the Adeptus Astartes because the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes don't normally subscribe to the religious beliefs of the Adeptus Ministorum. For a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to have as strong a relationship with any Adepta Sororitas as a number of your concepts suggest, that Chapter would have to deviate from the norm [for the Adeptus Astartes] and follow some form of the Imperial Faith (or have a warrior cult that bears sufficient resemblance to the Imperial Faith that the Adepta Sororitas will overlook any deviation). Some of your ideas regarding the Adepta Sororitas, if incorporated, will require some careful explanation or be presented in such a way that they don't appear to be defining aspects of the Chapter. For a Chapter of the Adeptus Astartes to be guarding an Adepta Sororitas shrine or remains of a saint, for example, would require some extraordinary circumstances.

I can actually see Adeptus Astartes and Adepta Sororitas working tohgeter for many reasons, even if they don't follow the same faith, the main one being geografical closeness. There is also that honour and duty can make strange bedfellows and can keep them togheter.
 

For my part, I recommend subtlety. All you need is a few small touches to bring a suitably "knightly" theme to your army. If you incorporate too much, it will look heavy-handed and over-themed (like the wolfiness of the Space Wolves or the bloodiness of the Blood Angels). The list you've provided could probably be pared down a bit - everything on it would work, but too many of the ideas combined would be a bit too much.

I was never thinking that all those should be used togheter.
 

 

 

 

I guess you've got a lot of good ideas by yourself.

Thanks
 

One thing that's off, is hanging around the Adepta Sororitas to "protect the fair maidens", because said "fair maidens" would burn you as heretics if they got a whiff of your notion of them needing any protection.

They'd treat it as an insult, that they are incapable of protecting themselves, and in turn incapable of doing the Emperor's holy work.

I never said anything about protecting them, just fighting for them which could be translated into 40k as fighting with them. And you have to remember that not all Adepta Sororitas are of militant nature.
 

 At any rate, Astartes typically show no sexual drive, so they'd be wholly disinterested in fair maidens, and at best see such ladies as liabilities. Never forget, his ascension complete, a battle brother is very different from a baseline human.

But you have to remeber that the romantic knight help fair maidens not out of any sexual reasons but becouse its honourable.

 

 

 

The other, is space marines having enough free time to live the luxorious lives of nobles.

For one thing, a space marine who's not in a battle or at combat practice, or on his way to a battle or combat practice is a space marine wasted, and for another, such laxaty invites weakness and temptation to many heresies.

Yes, yes, that's in a way the idea that they have possibly begun to lose their ways. It could also not really mean that much if their homeworld is not that advanced so the luxury of the nobility could just mean more or less living similar to other Space Marines but dressing in tunics with puff sleeves

 

 

 

 

 

 

Plus: Never forget, that the things we consider knights and knightly today have hardly anything in common with the historical reality. Our ideas of knight are the continuation of a romanticized image of the Middle Ages that was created during the 18th and 19th century. It's totally okay to use that in a ficitonal context like Warhammer 40.000 which romanticizes a lot by itself. The reason I mention this, is because of something Jes Goodwin mentioned in one of the Vocasts (I think it was in his first) … when they planned the fluff of the Imperial Knight, they tried to look at Knighthood from a more than 10.000 years perspective in which the initial ideas that were there at the founding of the Imperial Knights, have been gone through ages and ages of reinterpretation and reimagining (within the setting), so that in M39, there is a distorted image of a distorted image of a distorted image. So may you may want to think about how your chapter and it's idea of knighthood changed during the time of it's existence …

  I have had that in mind when I did my list since I tried for something more archetypical/romantic idea about knights than historical.

 

 

 

 

Looking forward to seeing how your Chapter develops, in any case!

Have to admit that I'm not really crating a specific Chapter, just got this thought about how to make a Chapter knight-ish and am trying to collect ideas for when I want to create one, need to suggest for others,  or want to use one of the established Chapters with “knight” as part of their name (I’m right now fiddling with something for the Blood Angle successor Crimson Knights, we'll if it gose any where)

Edited by Gamiel, 10 October 2020 - 08:26 PM.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

Have to ask, how are the Janissaries knight like? To my understanding was they something ratter different.

 

 

It depends what you define as being 'knightly'. There's being a 'knight' and then there's being a member of a chivalric order. One is a bestowed title and the other is a group unified by a common set of beliefs or purpose.

 

The Chivalric code again is separate from this.

 

What do you consider knightly? The Janissaries had a code of conduct, a unified purpose and duty as ordained by their lords and eventually gained a measure of independence. They are different in terms of historic implementation, but in military application they were comparable. They were elite, raised above the other rank and file of the day, they had a code of conduct and were duty bound to their superiors. A chivalric order by comparison was usually independent of any state, whereas Knights and others of such status were beholden to their Lord or King.

 

In terms of 40k, the Janissaries are just as viable as say, the Knights Templar or a Hungarian Banderium, it's simply a different cultural implementation. The difference historically is the power wielded by those with royal title, which makes the Janissaries more similar to a Christian Chivalric order in some regards because they are a military order who hold no governmental privileges either by title or birth.

 

 

But you have to remeber that the romantic knight help fair maidens not out of any sexual reasons but becouse its honourable.

 

 

So you're using a strict romanticisation of European, Christian knightly virtues as a basis for what is 'knightly'? 

 

I'm not sure what you're asking for in terms of suggestions, as to my mind you have all of the influences you need or want already. The only suggestions that can be given are those that either relate to a more accurate historical context or from a different cultural perspective (Samurai, Mamluks, Janissaries, Kheshig, etc) in how they are seen or implemented within that cultural context.

 

Your closest comparisons would be Japanese Samurai, as they have a huge degree of woefully inaccurate romanticism (especially in the west) as well as a lot of truly fascinating 'romantic' stories and poems written about them in the same vein as your classical 'Chivalric Knight'. That said almost every culture as some romanticisation of their previous warrior elite so unless you're totally set on a European-centric interpretation of your chapter, there's plenty of historical works to draw on.

[Gamiel]

 

 

Have to ask, how are the Janissaries knight like? To my understanding was they something ratter different.

 

 

It depends what you define as being 'knightly'.

 

The first things that pop into people’s minds when you talk about knights + real historical knights, and later depictions of them. Not groups that people describe as “they were like [land/culture]’s knights]” (like Samurais) or non-knight historical warrior-elites.

 

 

 

 

 

 

But you have to remeber that the romantic knight help fair maidens not out of any sexual reasons but becouse its honourable.

 

 

So you're using a strict romanticisation of European, Christian knightly virtues as a basis for what is 'knightly'?

 

Not really, but that's one of the knight archetypes that I'm using for inspiration. I'm also taking in the historical, the Gothic, Monty Pyton, pseudo-historical movies and such ideas for knights.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what you're asking for in terms of suggestions, as to my mind you have all of the influences you need or want already. The only suggestions that can be given are those that either relate to a more accurate historical context or from a different cultural perspective (Samurai, Mamluks, Janissaries, Kheshig, etc) in how they are seen or implemented within that cultural context.

 

Sorry I was not clear, I'm not trying to create a Chapter here, I'm trying to collect many different ideas for how to make a Chapter feel knightly in culture, organization, language and/or looks. My long list is not meant to be used all at ones but to have some of entries chosen by chance or will and combined. This is for later uses where they can be combined in different ways and with other stuff (like the WWI trench warfare and/or the Golden Dawn) so when I need it I have it written down and can easily pick some quirks when I need it, or when others would need it. I would say that the thing is that I like to make lists all in all.

 

When it comes for what I want would I say anything that I have not thought about, and I think that I'm missing references to the Gothic ideas about knights and probably many historical things that could be used.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I like #4 
the rest of them seem to be repeating the same ideas of Chivalrous, honorable, and closely tied to a chapter of sororitas.

not sure how that last one will work out, since largely the astartes don't believe in the imperial creed, but i guess your chapter can deviate from that, and be an example of why girlyman can't just shut down the ecclesiarchy.

As a means to explain why a marine chapter might defend a sororitas shrine or saint's place of burial, possibly the order was nearly annihilated protecting the chapter master who was critically wounded, saving his life, or something similar, so to satisfy their HONOR (see how i tied in multiple aspects in there? ) they have a veteran battle brother or two standing watch over said shrine or burial place. Say the sister in charge of the order intervened in a duel against a demon or demon prince saving the chapter master,  being struck down herself but buying time for her sisters to arrive and overwhelm the demon/prince before  suffering even more dearly at the hands of numerous lesser demons until more members of the chapter arrived.

Edited by Inquisitor_Lensoven, 19 October 2020 - 07:28 PM.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I guess you've got a lot of good ideas by yourself.

 

One thing that's off, is hanging around the Adepta Sororitas to "protect the fair maidens", because said "fair maidens" would burn you as heretics if they got a whiff of your notion of them needing any protection.

They'd treat it as an insult, that they are incapable of protecting themselves, and in turn incapable of doing the Emperor's holy work.

 

At any rate, Astartes typically show no sexual drive, so they'd be wholly disinterested in fair maidens, and at best see such ladies as liabilities. Never forget, his ascension complete, a battle brother is very different from a baseline human.

 

The other, is space marines having enough free time to live the luxorious lives of nobles.

For one thing, a space marine who's not in a battle or at combat practice, or on his way to a battle or combat practice is a space marine wasted, and for another, such laxaty invites weakness and temptation to many heresies.

 

Then there's the fact that space marines in general are already knights in space.

 

Look to the Dark Angels with their secretive orders, or to the Black Templars with their endless crusade. Extra-Knight themed Astartes, done right.

several chapters particularly those who are the sons of sanguinius are noted for partaking in non-combat related pursuits particularly art of various types, so having captains in a role similar to fuedal lords and enjoying a luxurious life style isn't that far afoot from what GW has already established...

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Also an idea if you want the fairytale type knights a moon of their homeworld could have large 'Dragons' and neophytes must slay a dragon before becoming full fledge battle brothers

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

 

 

Have to ask, how are the Janissaries knight like? To my understanding was they something ratter different.

 

 

It depends what you define as being 'knightly'.

 

The first things that pop into people’s minds when you talk about knights + real historical knights, and later depictions of them. Not groups that people describe as “they were like [land/culture]’s knights]” (like Samurais) or non-knight historical warrior-elites.

 

 

 

 

That's fair, but keep in mind that you're talking about this purely from a western cultural basis. People from the UK, mainland Europe, United States and even Australia and New Zealand that have a very either Anglo or Christian Europe basis for historical education (with good reason), and their cultural heritages will define this.

 

Someone from Egypt may have an entirely different interpretation, similarly will a Thai or Korean, as will a Kenyan. To a Mongolian, given their historical bias they may view the warriors of the Keshig as being what their culture would define as 'knightly'. Similarly Buddhist warrior-monks may well be romanticized outside of Japan in many of the same ways as European knights.

 

What I'm getting at is that given both the cultural medly that GW tends to draw from for it's chapters, as well as the 40k being a cultural mosh-pit, keeping a less euro-centric view might give you more options to work with.

 

That said, now I understand better what you're after the most I can say is that 'romantic' knightly virtues and character are fairly limited in many aspects. I'm not sure what else you can add other than say, 'tournaments' as a replacement to the training cages, or 'royal favour' to perhaps select a current company champion from 'the lists' of warriors who compete. Or perhaps to have a history of 'dragon' or monster hunting when not on campaign, seeking out and felling the most dangerous of beasts in the universe, for example.

 

Oppressing the constitutional peasants perhaps?

[Gamiel]

Some more concepts I have come up with since my first post

Spoiler

26. Well-mannered in both speech and acts. Likely do they use poetic euphemisms to reference to unpleasant things (the Warp, Chaos, the individual Chaos gods), and would never insult somebody directly.
27. Call each other knight-brother and sir knight, instead of battle-brother.
28. Power-lances are standard equipment for the Chapter’s biker units.
29. While they use Scouts the Chapter don’t use them for guerrilla warfare, since that would be dishonourable.
30. Never attack non-combatants, unless attacked first.
31. Well-mannered in both speech and acts. Likely do they use poetic euphemisms to reference to unpleasant things (the Warp, Chaos, the individual Chaos gods), and would never insult somebody directly.
32. Have linage system based on the gene-seed implants, with the implants that have had the most bearers being seen as the most noble. Likely have each gene-seed implant a surname and/or title that is given to the Marine it has been implanted in.
33. Believes that Mankind is weak and susceptible to corruption, and therefore needs constant (and maybe harsh) guidance and leadership.
34. The Chapter expect its battle-brothers not to just master the arts of war but also learn at least the basic of rhetoric, poetry, and playing an instrument.
35. Falconry is a popular pastime among the Marines not on war footing.
36. A noble but haughty Chapter that are the direct rulers of their homeworld’s toiling population.
37. A Chapter with rigorous adherence to honour and burning hunger for glory, the later can likely lead a battle-brother to make reckless decisions to uphold the name of his Chapter and earn himself renown among his peers. Their pride does possibly not let them refuse a challenge or the chance for glory, and their sense of honour may prevent them to fight enemies with other weapons than the ones used by the opponent.
38. A Chapter that’s more interesting in engaging the enemy in ways that bring them glory than what’s strategical best.
39. Put importance in keeping themselves clean since uncleanliness is one of the marks of being a dirty commoner. [Must be a king. / Why? / He hasn't got all over him.]
40. Their homeworld’s native respects them as their protectors and justice keepers but fears them for that many children that are sent to them to serve are never heard of again.
41. Highly aloof toward standard humans who are not of fighter-nobility linage, no matter their position.
42. Many/all of the Chapter’s ranks are named after court ranks (Cup-bearer, keeper of the seal, knight marshal, Master of Ceremonies, chamberlain, etc.). Those ranks may just be another name for the standard Codex ranks or they may be notably different.
43. The pauldron not showing the Chapter symbol is used to show personal heraldry.
44. Many/all of them have tabards over the armour.

 

 

the rest of them seem to be repeating the same ideas of Chivalrous, honorable, and closely tied to a chapter of sororitas.

Which is one of the reason to why I'm looking for suggestions, I want a broader spectrum of ideas.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Have to ask, how are the Janissaries knight like? To my understanding was they something ratter different.

 

It depends what you define as being 'knightly'.

 

The first things that pop into people’s minds when you talk about knights + real historical knights, and later depictions of them. Not groups that people describe as “they were like [land/culture]’s knights]” (like Samurais) or non-knight historical warrior-elites.

 

 

 

That's fair, but keep in mind that you're talking about this purely from a western cultural basis. People from the UK, mainland Europe, United States and even Australia and New Zealand that have a very either Anglo or Christian Europe basis for historical education (with good reason), and their cultural heritages will define this.

 

Someone from Egypt may have an entirely different interpretation, similarly will a Thai or Korean, as will a Kenyan. To a Mongolian, given their historical bias they may view the warriors of the Keshig as being what their culture would define as 'knightly'. Similarly Buddhist warrior-monks may well be romanticized outside of Japan in many of the same ways as European knights.

 

If you have examples of ideas from non-European cultures interpretations of knights I'm all ears (what I have seen of Chinese and Japanese interpretations is that their ideas of knights are that they should either be women with the armour being minimal and/or extremely formfitting + have a frilly skirt; or given some kind of extreme armour that would make Chronopia think that you are overdoing it; beside that so are they little different from your typical noble character in Chinese/Japanese settings).

 

 

What I'm getting at is that given both the cultural medly that GW tends to draw from for it's chapters, as well as the 40k being a cultural mosh-pit, keeping a less euro-centric view might give you more options to work with.

Oh, I know, I'm right now just making a list for knights only so I have all knigth concepts in one area but I have no plans to use that one only for things. I'm also doing lists for other cultures/architypes for when it will be needed + I have a long list with quirks/concepts that are unbound to any culture.

 

 

 

That said, now I understand better what you're after the most I can say is that 'romantic' knightly virtues and character are fairly limited in many aspects. I'm not sure what else you can add other than say, 'tournaments' as a replacement to the training cages, or 'royal favour' to perhaps select a current company champion from 'the lists' of warriors who compete. Or perhaps to have a history of 'dragon' or monster hunting when not on campaign, seeking out and felling the most dangerous of beasts in the universe, for example.

 

That's some ideas to work with.

 

 

Oppressing the constitutional peasants perhaps?

That's a good idéa, could maybe be presented as the Chapter's members it as their noble right to be able to take whatever they need from the population of their homeworld.

 

Do people have any idéas of other was to reprcent that?

 

 

Edited by Gamiel, 22 October 2020 - 08:25 PM.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

 

That's a good idéa, could maybe be presented as the Chapter's members it as their noble right to be able to take whatever they need from the population of their homeworld.

 

Do people have any idéas of other was to reprcent that?

 

 

It could benefit to reference some of the the old Bretonnian army books, considering that was a lot of their schtick. There were some good lords who looked after their people, but even so it was considered their right as nobility to rule the peasantry, it just depended on the lord if they interpreted that as also defending and providing for their subjects.

 

On the flipside of that, some of the peasantry were fanatically loyal to their liege lords.

 

Perhaps on a 40k chapter homeworld it's not so simple, and the worlds population are kept at war with one another, baronies kingdoms and fiefdoms encouraged to battle one another for the favour of the chapter. Perhaps they only reward those who show great martial skill on the battlefield, or honour in victory and humility even in defeat or somesuch.

 

Edit: With the Bretonnian influence you could also have the cosmetic effect of changing rank structure to follow romantic questing knight traditions, such as Knights Errant, Questing Knights (to rip the army book off completely), etc. It could even bleed down to the company structure if you wanted to push it further, having a lord select a quest to undertake and would rally initiates to his cause, name them Men at Arms or something to that effect. The questing lord would have his retinue of Knights Errant, though I'm not sure what you'd go for with the specialists, I'd perhaps leave them as is.

Edited by Grey Hunter Ydalir, 22 October 2020 - 10:27 PM.

[gripschi]

A piece of my IA, i suggest to Take a Look, i have incooperate some "Knights themes.

Here my on this based Rank Structure as Reference for you.

Ranks



Chapter Marshal (Chapter Master)

Knight Grand Commander (Leaders of the Grand Cross Company's)

Knight Commander (Leader of Chivalry Order Battalion)

Knight Equerry (Co-Leader of a Chivalry Order Battalion)

Knight Captain (Leader of a Company)

Knight Lieutenant (Co-Leader of a Company)

Knight Banneret (Leader of a Lance)

Knight Serjeant (Second Leader of a Lance)

Knight (Full Fledged Battle Brother)

Man at Arms ( Scout)

Squire (Aspirant in Training)



Special Ranks



Knight of the Grand Cross (Veteran Battle Brother who earn the Right to don Ancient Terminator Armour)

Feldscher (Battle Brother who is skilled in some extent as Hospitaller)

Hospitaller (Apothecary)

Grand Hospitaller (Master of the Apothecarium)

Trospar (Battle Brother who is skilled in some extent as Trappitaler)

Trappitaler (Tech Marine)

Grand Trappitaler (Master of the Forge)

Kommender (including Driver, Pilots, Trappitaler and Hospitaller, and other noncombat Officers)

Grand Kommtur (Master of the Kommenden)

Kommtur (Leader of a Chapter Keep)

Knight Grand Preceptor (Leader of Honour Guard Squad from Captains)

Knight Preceptor (Member of Honour Guards)

Chancellor (Function as Liaison Officer to other Imperial Forces and Organizations, has extensive Knowledge of Various Imperial Guides including the Codex Astartes)



Reclusarium



Lore Master (Chaplain)

Lore Keeper (Chaplain in Training)

Troubadour (Brother who wrote Tales of Deeds)

Bard (Brother who tell Tales)

Scribe (Brother who wrote down Tales as told)

[jaxom]

I keep a collection of quotations for just this purpose!

 

 

Moreover, as the arms which a man holds ready to strike with, whenever it is advisable, symbolize justice, which includes right and equality; so the blade of the sword which is straight and sharp, and cuts the same with both edges, represents the same thing.
 

Las Siete Partidas, II.XXI.4

 

The rest are all from Ramon Lull's Book of Knighthood and Chivalry. He was a late 13th century Iberian knight.

 

 

“In the beginning, when contempt for justice had come into the world because of the diminution of charity, justice sought to recover its honor by means of fear. And thus the entire populace was divided into groups of a thousand, and one man - more kind, wise, loyal, and strong, and with nobler courage, a better education and better manner than all the rest - was picked and chosen from every thousand.”

 

“Among all the beasts, the finest, swiftest and most capable of enduring the most amount of work, and the most suitable for serving man was sought out… and it was given to the man who was chosen from one thousand men, and thus is that man called a knight.”

 

“Once the noblest beast had been assigned to the noblest man, the noblest arms most suited to combat and protection from wounds and death were subsequently picked and chosen from among all the arms, and those arms were given to and bestowed upon the knight.”

 

“Love and fear are joined as one against enmity and contempt, and thus the knight, because of his nobility of courage, good habits and the very high and great honor that is bestowed upon him by him being chosen, and because of his horse and arms, must be loved and feared by the people. For through love, charity and learning shall be restored, and through fear, truth and justice shall be restored.”

 

“Be mindful… for if you become a knight you receive the honor and the life of service that devolve upon friends of chivalry. And the nobler your lineage, the more obliged you are to be good and agreeable to god and the people, and if you are treacherous you are the greatest enemy of Chivalry and most contrary to its lineage and its honor.”

“So lofty and noble is the Order of Chivalry… it was fitting that those who are in The Order be made lords of the people.”

 

“Just as jurists, doctors and clerics have scientific knowledge and books and they hear the lesson and learn their office through the doctrine of book-learning… it would be appropriate... for [Chivalry] to be a taught art, just as the other sciences are taught.”

 

“Thus, just as our lord god has chosen the clergy to uphold the holy faith through scripture and reason, preaching the faith to the Infidels with great charity that they are willing to sacrifice their lives for it, so the god of glory has chosen the knights to conquer  and overcome by force of arms the Infidels who contrive every day to destroy the holy Church. Therefore, god grants honor in this world and the next to those knights who are the upholders and defenders of the office of god and of the faith through which we shall be saved.”

 

“Justice must be upheld by the knights, for just as judges profess the office of judging, so knights profess the office of upholding justice. And if the knight and book-learning could be joined in such close concert that the knight were learned enough to be a judge… for he by whom justice can best be upheld is more suited than anyone else to being both a judge and a knight.”

 

“Chivalry and valor cannot be joined together unless there is wisdom and common sense, otherwise, folly and ignorance would be joined with the Order of Chivalry…. That just as some knight or other, because of his nobility of courage inspires you to act valiantly and scorn dangers so that you can honor Chivalry, so the Order of Chivalry must ensure that wisdom and common sense are loved, so that knights  may honor the Order of Chivalry in the face of the disorder and the failing that characterizes those who think they are following the honor of Chivalry through folly and ignorance.”

 

“Do not seek nobility of courage in the mouth, for it does not always tell the truth, and do not seek it in resplendent vestments, for beneath many a resplendent cloak there is a base and weak heart filled with evil and deceit… and do not seek a noble heart in the equipment or harness, for beneath grandiose equipment there is possibly a cowardly and maleficent heart. So then if you wish to find nobility of courage, seek it in faith, hope, charity, justice, fortitude, loyalty, and the other virtues, for nobility of courage resides in them, and because of them the noble heart of the knight protects itself against evil, deceit, and enemies of Chivalry.”

 

“Unto the knight is given a sword which is made in the shape of a cross to signify that just as our lord Jesus Christ vanquished on the cross the death into which we had fallen because of the sin of our father Adam, so the knight must vanquish and destroy the enemies of the cross with the sword. And since the sword is double edged, and Chivalry exists in order to uphold justice, and justice means giving to each his right therefore the knight’s sword signifies that he should uphold Chivalry and justice with the sword.”

 

“The lance is given to the knight to signify the truth, for the truth is straight and does not bend, and truth goes before falsehood. And the lance-head signifies the power that truth has before falsehood, and the pennant signifies that the truth reveals itself to all, and it does all it can against falsehood and deceit. And truth is the support of hope as it is of everything else that the knight’s lance signifies regarding the truth.”

“The chapel-de-fer [helmet] is given to the knight to signify shame, for a knight who has no shame cannot be obedient to the Order of Chivalry…. And just as the chapel-de-fer protects the head, which is the highest and most important part of the human body, so shame protects the knight… so that he does not stoop to base deeds and the nobility of his courage does not descend into malfeasance, deceit or any evil habit.”

 

“The hauberk signifies a castle and rampart opposite vices and misdeeds, for just as a castle and rampart are closed around so that no-one may enter inside them, so the hauberk is closed and fitted on all sides so that it signifies the noble courage of the knight, inside of which neither treachery, pride, disloyalty nor any other vice can enter.”

 

“Iron chausses [leg armor] are given to the knight in order to keep his feet and legs safe, to signify that the knight shall keep the highways safe with iron, that is, with the sword, the lance, the mace, and other weapons.”
 

“The mace is given to the knight to signify strength of courage, for just as the mace is of use against all armor and it strikes and inflicts wounds everywhere, so strength of courage protects the knight from every vice and fortifies the virtues and good habits with which he upholds the honor of Chivalry.”

“The shield is given to the knight to signify his office, for just as the knight places the shield between himself and his enemy, so the knight stands in the middle between the king and his people. And just as the blow strikes the shield before the knight’s body, so the knight must place his body in front of his lord if anyone tries to capture or wound him.”

“The pourpoint [cloth worn over armor] signifies for the knight the great travails he must endure in order to honor the Order of Chivalry. For just as the pourpoint is worn over the other garments and exposed to the sun, rain and wind, and it receives blows before the hauberk, and it is attacked and struck on all sides, so the knight is chosen for greater travails than anyone else, for all those who are beneath him in nobility and under his protection have to resort to the knight, and he must defend them all, and the knight shall be struck and wounded and killed before those who are commended to him.”

 

“The blazon on the shield… is given to the knights so that he may be praised for valourous deeds that he performs and the blows he delivers in battle; and if he is cowardly, weak or recreant the blazon is given to him so that he may be censured and reprimanded.”

“A knight who has no faith cannot be trained in good habits, for through faith man sees god and his works spiritually, and believes in things invisible. And through faith man has hope, charity and loyalty, and he is the servant of truth.”

“Prudence is a virtue through which knowledge of good and evil is acquired, and through which the ability to be a lover of good and an enemy of evil is acquired, and prudence is a science through which knowledge of the future and present is acquired, and prudence provides the ability to avoid physical and spiritual harm by using foresight and stratagems, Thus, since knights exist in order to persecute and destroy evil, and since no men expose themselves to so many perils as knights, what could be more essential to the knight than prudence?”

“Pride is a vice of inequality, for the prideful man does not wish to have a peer or an equal and thus he loves being alone. And since humility and fortitude are two virtues and they love equality and are opposed to pride, if you, Prideful Knight, wish to conquer your pride, gather together your courage humility and fortitude, for humility without fortitude is not strong against pride, for in humility, without there being fortitude there is no strength, and pride cannot be vanquished without strength….Even though nobility of courage is not a physical thing, all the more must fortitude and humility, which are spiritual things, expel pride from noble courage, which is spiritual nobility.”

“The king or prince who unmakes the Order of Chivalry itself not only unmakes himself as a knight, but also the knights who are subordinate to him who, because of the bad example set by their lord and so that they will be loved by him and follow his evil ways, do what does not pertain to Chivalry or its Order…. So if expelling one knight from the Order of Chivalry is a serious offence and an extremely serious debasement of courage, how much worse is he who expels many knights from the Order of Chivalry!”

“If it is the office of the knight to impeach or fight the traitor, and if it is the office of the traitorous knight to defend himself and fight the loyal knight, what is the office of the knight? And if a courage as evil as the courage of a treacherous knight seeks to vanquish the courage of a loyal knight, what is it that the lofty courage of a knight who fights out of loyalty is seeking to vanquish or overcome?”

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

Well any progress towards the creation of your own chapter?

[Gamiel]

Well any progress towards the creation of your own chapter?

As earlier stated is this more of a collection of concepts for collections sake, but I have used them for my Crimson Knights post