Leman Russ top of the Primarchs in CC

[TorvaldTheMild]

Leman Russ now has to be considered for the top of the list for CC fighters.  He beat Horus when Horus was given all the powers from Chaos.  People might say he had the spear of the emperor but Horus beat the Emperor so a remnant of a weapon isn't anything when Horus beat the maker of the spear.  

[mc warhammer]

oh boy

[Brother Tyler]

Evidently it has been a while since we've had one of these "my daddy can beat up your daddy" "debates." As real world fights demonstrate, styles matter. And so do circumstances and luck.

 

...Horus beat the Emperor...

The original lore (that hasn't been retconned in the new fiction yet) presented it as if the Emperor held back throughout the climactic duel with Horus. And as I recall, Horus was dead at the end of that fight while the Emperor still lived. By basic win/lose criteria, he who lives at the end of a duel to the death wins whereas he who dies at the end of said duel loses.

 

More to the point, Russ won at one point then Horus won later, only failing to kill Russ due to the intervention of Russ's Space Wolves. By that, the basic premise of your argument is fatally flawed.

 

More importantly, in the fictional Warhammer 40,000 setting, plot is king. The plot determines who comes out on top. We can go around and around on this "debate" and we won't get anywhere (as numerous previous similar "discussions" demonstrate).

[Scammel]

So Angron is more powerful than the Emperor, because we all know that Angron bodied Russ.

 

P.S. I suspect the Warp ju-ju currently debilitating Horus (as a result of Russ' attack) is what forces him to drop the shields - I'm speculating that he would have waited longer, but the hangry Daemons in his blood are chomping at the bit to face the Emperor, so overwhelm him to expedite the battle.

[TorvaldTheMild]

Try actually using cognition to argue against my point.  But you can't all you can say is that because you literally can't argue it.

[b1soul]

I don't follow the logic here...but that's probably because there is none.

 

Angron and the Lion have shown themselves to be more than capable of going toe-to-toe with Russ. The former pummeled him into submission...and the latter disarmed him early in their duel but then politely refrained from stabbing him through the chest.

 

So while Russ is formidable, it's not clear which Primarch among the eighteen is "the best" on any given day.

[Gore Crow]

Russ himself didn't think he could beat Sanguinius or Curze in combat - as the top of the Primarchs in CC we have to take his word that he is not the top of the Primarchs in CC. 

[Monkeychunks]

Let's look at the data:

• Lion (Durant): Hard, famous loss for Russ. Started a fight he couldn't win and then flattened with a single punch. How embarrassing. Loss
• Curze: Never actually duelled, but openly admitted that Curze would win. Predicted Loss
• Sanguinius: The same, very accepting that he would lose this duel. Predicted Loss
• Angron (Night of the Wolf): Devastating loss. Literally sent home crawling through the mud, humiliated. Again we see a trend of starting fights he cannot finish. Claims that he won the battle are irrelevant, because he absolutely 100% lost the duel. Loss
• Magnus (Battle of Prospero): A win! Sure he brought his dogs to work, and some Sisters of Silence, and his opponent had already resigned to his death. But a win is a win. Win
• Horus (Battle of Trisolian): Strong early start, but flubbed his lead and again sent home in disgrace. Was left so close to death that Corax had to save him. Once again, starting fights that he cannot finish. Loss
• Alpharius (Battle of Alaxxes): Never concluded but both parties seemed up for it. Given Russ' history of starting fights and losing them, it seems pretty reasonable that he would have lost this one as well. Unknown
• Lost Primarchs: Who? No data, nothing canon, no named winner. Can't even confirm that Russ was involved, much less that he won.
• All others: Unknown. As far as I am aware, there is no data on the other Primarch's having a fight with him.

 

So we have 3 confirmed losses, 2 predicted losses, a draw, and a win.

As such I think it is fair to place him above Magnus, roughly equal with Alpharius, and comfortably above Lorgar. Putting him joint 15th among his brothers.

[Morovir]

Actually, if we use Torvald's logic from his original post, seeing as Angron beat Russ, but Perturabo beat Angron in Slaves to Darkness, clearly Perturabo could beat Russ as well.

[b1soul]

@ Monkeychunks

 

Based and 40Kpilled

[Captain Idaho]

=][= Chill with the personal attacks, Frater. I've removed off topic posts as well. Let's keep things on track =][= Edited October 12, 2020 by Captain Idaho

[Morovir]

But, we know that Dorn defeated both Layak and Fulgrim during the Siege of Terra, but then was humbled by Perturabo at the Iron Cage, and thus, we can come to the conclusion that the only person capable of defeating Perturabo is Perturabo.

[Brother Tyler]

Try actually using cognition to argue against my point.  But you can't all you can say is that because you literally can't argue it.

The problem here is that you can't demand logical argumentation from everyone else unless you also incorporate logical argumentation.

 

It's a fair expectation, though, so I'm sure everyone will be happy to oblige you if you are willing to kick things off by living up to the expectation yourself.

 

Sources should be cited and/or quoted in order to confirm their validity. If verified, they establish valid premises. When all relevant premises are aggregated, we might draw logical conclusions.

 

So far all we have is anecdote, unconfirmed (and invalidated) premises, and speculative conclusions.

[Karhedron]

Several Primarchs offer their opinions of their brothers at various points in the HH series. You could say that the only data we have to go on are the fights that actually occurred but we have to remember the circumstances. Russ beat Magnus but Magnus was pretty much resigned to death at that point. Angron beat Russ but Russ was purposefully trying to make a point winning a duel was stupid if you lost the battle or the war as a result. He was trying to educate Angron rather than beat him and hoped that his unstable brother would learn more from an applied lesson than from a lecture. Sadly it seems Angron was already past any redemption at that point.

 

Several fights between Primarchs seem to come down almost to chance. The Lion and Curze fought twice and while Johnson won both times, he would probably have lost the first time if his sons had not rushed to the rescue while the Night Lords sat back and watched Curze get shanked. While there are some Primarchs who are clearly better melee fighters than others, I think it is fair to say that the top tier is very close and crowded and who would win on any given day could easily depend on luck (or plot if you prefer ).

Edited October 12, 2020 by Karhedron

[SkimaskMohawk]

The return of this guy and his flame inducing threads, featuring personal attacks and faulty logic.

 

All I know is that in the last siege book, Khârn is going to beat Russ, the no-questions-asked-best-primarch-fighter, in a duel to finally be redeemed from being worf material and then pass out for a nap and be mistaken for dead.

[Brother Tyler]

I'll tell you what, just to get the ball rolling on the logical argumentation thing, I'll address the "Horus beat the Emperor" argument.

 

The Emperor could sense the Chaos powers in the warp. They howled in glee and rage as they fed their pawn more power. They had waited long for this chance to strike at their most ardent foe. The Lord of Humanity stood alone against their massed might and knew that he was losing. Somehow he could not make himself bring his full force to bear on Horus; the Warmaster might be traitor but deep within him was still the favoured son, the finest of the Primarchs, the beloved scion.

 

Horus showed no such restraint...

 

That book, written in the early 2000's, revises and expands upon the original lore from the late 80's and early 90's, this portion specifically drawing upon Aboard Horus' Battle Barge by Bill King. That story was published in White Dwarf #161. I don't have that issue, so the below comes from an online transcription:

 

In the warp the Emperor hears the Chaos Powers howl as they feed their pawn more power. The Lord of Humanity stands alone against their massed might and knows that he is losing. Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint.

 

In both versions, the Emperor is holding back while Horus is not. In both versions, Horus is killed by the Emperor when the Emperor stops holding back. In both cases, it is clear that the Emperor beats Horus, even though the latter was infused with the powers of the gods of Chaos and the former was mortally wounded at the end of the fight.

 

By that, the statement that "Horus beat the Emperor" is patently false, and any conclusion one might draw from that false premise is thus false.

 

Going further, the argument that "X beat Y and Y beat Z, so X must beat Z" is false. That is a deluded attempt to apply mathematical principles to interpersonal combat. Interpersonal combat doesn't work that way. In this, I can only provide personal anecdote from years of participating in a variety of combat sports and arts, both armed and unarmed. My experience, as relevant to this discussion, is two-fold. First, personal styles and ability matter - comparisons between multiple fighters aren't strictly hierarchal. Fighter A might be "better" than Fighter B, and Fighter B might be "better" than Fighter C, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Fighter A is "better" than Fighter C. The personal styles, attributes, and abilities of each are matched up in a contest. It's entirely possible for Fighter C to consistently perform better than Fighter A in a matchup between the two, regardless of how they perform against Fighter B. Similarly, being "better" than someone doesn't guarantee a victory. There are myriad variables in combat and it's entirely possible for the "lesser" fighter to prevail over the better fighter.

 

I can't argue as to whether or not Russ beat Horus. I haven't read those books, so I can only draw upon what I read on the Internet, whether wiki sites like Lexicanum (which is the site I consulted in making my previous argument) or questionable posts from other hobbyists that contradict the information I found. So on this point, I'll defer to anyone that can quote all of the relevant sources.

[Brother Tyler]

Looking further...

 

He [Russ] beat Horus when Horus was given all the powers from Chaos.

This statement presents the assumption that Horus was as fully infused with Chaos power as he was [will be] in the fateful showdown with the Emperor. The duels the OP is referring to didn't exist in the lore at the time that the original lore was written, coming about more recently. In addition, it's likely that we'll see the Horus/Emperor showdown revised in some ways when it is finally presented in the new lore. However, the quote I presented in the post above allows for the implication that the Chaos powers fed their pawn [Horus] "more power" in the battle against the Emperor. A possible interpretation of this is that Horus had less power prior to that, including the battles against Russ.

 

If that is indeed the case, then the "X beat Y and Y beat Z, so X must beat Z" fails because Y [Horus] isn't Y when he faces the Emperor - he's Y+. So even if we could apply the [false] argument, the data is false. Once again, a false premise (Horus vs. Russ =/= Horus vs. Emperor) with a false argument (X>Y and Y>Z, so X>Z - we've already illustrated that Y<Z, and it might not even be "Y" against Z, but is instead "Y+") cannot be used to develop a valid conclusion.

[Scribe]

Are we honestly going to apply the equivalent of MMA Math to plot devices?

 

He crawled, in the dirt, and Angron stood over him.

 

Best CC fighter, he is not.

 

Most self deluded? Close, but he loses that to Curze.

[b1soul]

The Lion trounces Curze not once but twice and Russ is doubtful of his chances against Curze

 

Once again, the first Primarch is, not surprisingly, first

[MegaVolt87]

The Lion trounces Curze not once but twice and Russ is doubtful of his chances against Curze

 

Once again, the first Primarch is, not surprisingly, first

 

Yeah the Lion low key walked away with a lot of the first place trophies during the GC/HH without making a big deal about it IMO. 

[b1soul]

Yes, he also sent Russ into the shadowrealm on Dulan. Lions eat wolves for breakfast.

 

OK, I'm getting silly here. But silly threads deserve silly posts.

[StrangerOrders]

I'm somewhat at a loss over posting here but after seeing the comments I really do think it needs to be said.

 

We are sometimes perilously close to being shockingly uncritical as a reader base and just aping the PoVs of characters which we are fond of dismissing as man-children in the same sentence.

 

Like, Astartes are literally programmed to idolize their fathers and mortals seem to favor whoever they've actually seen. Why on earth are we taking any of their words?

 

Angron beat Russ? So what, Angron was willing to commit fratricide and get murderated while Russ wasnt. Where can we attribute willingness to kill at any given moment? Should we scribble down a rule for how psychotic each character is at every given moment?

 

Dorn never gets mentioned as being a notable fighter among the Primarchs, yet he is one of the ones to actually do it. And even those circumstances sort of default to the above because how 'into it' Alpharius was can be argued to the heat death of the universe.

 

Russ beat Magnus, forget Magnus being suicidal and go back to reread exactly how furious he was at that point, he was pretty bloody committed. But should we assign some metric for how many Primarchs can be crippled by punching out their eye (people seem to forget that that fight ended because Russ just punched out Magnus's seeming uber-magical eye after all that build up and exactly how ugly of a fight it was)?

 

Kurze freaking 2v1'd Guilliman AND the Lion after losing to the latter twice. Why shouldnt explosives and proper planning count?

 

Mortarian and Guilliman's 'fight' in Plague Wars can literally be summarized as 'and then third parties flipped the proverbial table and tasered a party'.

 

Everyone says Sangi can beat/kill everyone else but we have seen inside his head enough to know that he is by far the least comfortable with fratricide and as written is really hard to provoke. 

 

Meanwhile, Fulgrim is treated as an insetting joke but seems to be terrifyingly effective as written. He kills Ferrus (who is alleged to be a hell of a fighter) but has his face kicked in by Lorgar (alleged to be the weakes), where do any of them fall?

 

The Primarchs are all as-written on a very tight spectrum with things seeming more dependent on their own moods and circumstances than a group of people seeming to be aping Legionaries.

 

By my token, whichever Primarch is bright enough to just shoot the guy challenging him from orbit with several Nova Cannon rounds is probably the most likely to win. Or whoever knows their true name, which seems like a decent way of screwing over any one of the Daemon fellows. (Alternatively, whichever one has a Legion that is currently not in a 'let them fight!' mood and just rushes the other guy).

 

These type of things can be more honestly called 'which Primarch do you love/hate most' and its getting kind of uncomfortable how often one of those is either Russ or Angron. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by StrangerOrders

[Pearson73]

Can anyone tell me which book Russ says that he would lose to Curze in? It's a statement that surprises me, as I get the impression that Russ is a pretty brutal, serious warrior, where as Curze is frequently described as a murderer rather than a fighter, one who uses surprises and dirty tricks, rather than being possessed of any great skill.

[Gore Crow]

Can anyone tell me which book Russ says that he would lose to Curze in? It's a statement that surprises me, as I get the impression that Russ is a pretty brutal, serious warrior, where as Curze is frequently described as a murderer rather than a fighter, one who uses surprises and dirty tricks, rather than being possessed of any great skill.

 

It's in Wolfsbane - Excerpt/spoilers etc

[Fedor]

 

The Lion trounces Curze not once but twice and Russ is doubtful of his chances against Curze

 

Once again, the first Primarch is, not surprisingly, first

 

Yeah the Lion low key walked away with a lot of the first place trophies during the GC/HH without making a big deal about it IMO. 

 

 

Well, until Luther turned him into a vegetable anyway.

 

 Russ picking Curze and Sanguinius and giving the reasons he did for being unsure of them (he didn't say he absolutely couldn't beat them) was more an insight into how steeped in Fenrisian culture he is, than an excuse for fans to start ranking power levels imo. It's similar to his distaste for Magnus and ties into the typical outlook of cultures at that stage of development...wariness of the mad/unknown/unpredictable being a big deal. He senses something dark under the surface of Sanguinius and it unnerves him...and well Curze with his visions of doom and the like, explains itself.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Fedor