ATVs and Ultras

[Prot]

Hey guys,

 

I made a similar thread in the White Scars but I’m curious what UM players think. 
 

So which army is better suited for such a unit?

 

truthfully I think the ATV is a well pointed, economic choice for anyone.  My thinking is for under 90 points you’re getting a model that has a lot of wounds and can get where it needs to to reach meats range quickly. Or for 5 points cheaper you can have a good dakka unit capable of taking down elite units or chaff. 
 

White Scars get to enjoy the high attack value, ultras get to enjoy leaving CC and firing at -1. 
 

im planning on using a squad of two to make greater use of strats and rerolls. 
 

any thoughts?

 

 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

ATVs are perfect for Scars but they are good for every Chapter. I think I’d go melta.

[NKirkham24]

I think for most chapters, units will try and tag them to stop them shooting. As they aren't vehicles, they can't fire in combat, so we have a good advantage being able to fall back and shoot.

 

i plan to run them with Bike Chaplain and Outriders for support, I think the Chaplain's buffs, particularly if he is a Master of Sanctity, and/or using commanding oratory strat, will buff them sufficiently for the melta to do some real hurt too. 

 

My 1st ATV is due to arrive tomorrow, so I should have it ready to or a game i've got planned next week. I'll let you know how it goes, and potentially order another in the near future. 

[Ishagu]

In a way I think these might be best with Ultras.

 

3 of them supported by a Primaris Bike Chaplain that grants +1 to wound. They can advance up the field, and then retreat from combat and still shoot if they get tagged.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Ishagu

[Karhedron]

3 of them supported by a Primaris Bike Chaplain that grants +1 to wound. They can advance up the field, and then retreat from combat and still shoot if they get tagged.

I don't think the ATVs are CORE so you can't buff them with Litanies (or a variety of other abilities actually).

 

Which does actually give Attack Bikes a niche still as they are CORE.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Karhedron

[Ishagu]

Ah fair enough, I still haven't memorised all the core units.

 

Still, the tagging does apply. Run them by themselves without needing support. Not a massive investment.

[Gederas]

So, a question:

What about successors?

Because I was thinking of using some for my Emperor's Spears as fast anti-Tank (because there's enough anti-infantry shooting elsewhere in the army) with the Multi-Melta.

[emperorpants]

The ATVs are not core, so they don't benefit from re rolls. EXCEPT Guillimans aura for re rolling 1s within 12 inches, and our sons of Guilliman strat. So the fact that we can actually give them re rolls and can fall back and shoot likely makes Ultras one of, if not the, best chapters for them imo.

[NKirkham24]

Hadn't realised the ATV wasn't Core, bit of a shame, but I think they will work quite well. 

 

I thin both variants are viable too, either plenty of anti-infantry fire in the unit with the twin bolt rifles & gatling or the added anti-tank punch with the Multi-Melta. I think the 5 points for the MM is worthwhile unless you're desperate elsewhere personally.

 

In multiples they could be very good, as we've said, especially as Ultras so they can't be tied down in combat.

[Theredknight]

How about using with an apothecary in the area, if I read right a model back at full wounds?

[emperorpants]

How about using with an apothecary in the area, if I read right a model back at full wounds?

That's true, however I wouldn't bank on that lasting very long. It's likely a mistake and will probably receive a faq soon.

[Prot]

 

3 of them supported by a Primaris Bike Chaplain that grants +1 to wound. They can advance up the field, and then retreat from combat and still shoot if they get tagged.

I don't think the ATVs are CORE so you can't buff them with Litanies (or a variety of other abilities actually).

 

Which does actually give Attack Bikes a niche still as they are CORE.

 

 

Ah, good catch. I made the assumption since they both have the "Biker" Key words... which is strange that they aren't core.

 

Checking in with Outriders, they DO have the core keyword. Really strange.

 

I think this swings things toward the White Scars since they will get more out of the assault portion from the ATV, and not lose as much by being in assault with it. 

 

I think this makes the Eradicators that much better for this purpose, even by putting them in reserves. The dakka variant is heavy 8 so that is something the ATV will be good with for removing masses in front of fast assault units (Outriders/etc). Again, perhaps better suited to White Scars.

 

How about using with an apothecary in the area, if I read right a model back at full wounds?

 

As mentioned, it's definitely an oversight so I'm not even going to tempt myself. :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

If your ATVs are that close you’re not using them right .

[Prot]

If your ATVs are that close you’re not using them right .

Ah but if I was the only one in charge of moving models, I’d agree with you. Unfortunately my opponents usually move their own models. 

 

plus I’d say as a white scar, there would be good reason to do so. 

 

actually now that I think of it I’ve done this intentionally at times to screw up Astra tank shooting. It’s highly effective. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Prot

[WrathOfTheLion]

Is there a reason to typically keep them close to Guilliman? To me that sounds a bit counterintuitive, but not certain.

[Prot]

Just the way his reroll is worded it allows reroll of 1’s for imperium units within 12. Not amazing but still nice. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Situational at best.

[Prot]

So I've played quite a fair chunk of games with this unit now.

 

I believe you do need to 'flirt' with getting somewhat close because the 12" melta effect is just that good, and you can mitigate the inherent risk in this maneuver with layering your counter assaults, plus the ATV's do have 8 wounds, and a fair chunk of attacks.

 

Regardless, I admit I have been playing them without using the rule of bringing them back from the dead. I have no idea if that rule will stick or not, but I actually find that they are a lower target priority, and when they become a target for certain opponents, they can get wiped surprisingly easy. The models look chunky, but really at T6, 3+ they can disappear.

 

So I've personally come to the conclusion this unit is not going to replace the Attack bike, and is probably not nearly as potent as people thought (keep in mind I'm not bringing back 1 a turn with the Chief Apothecary)

 

I believe White Scars still get a little better use out of this, but I've come to find that retreating from CC and charging back in (WS) or retreating from CC and shooting at -1 (UM) is really a wash. 

 

One of the biggest detractors of this unit (which really sucks) is the lack of Core key word. When you get three of these guys together it is actually quite plausible to have them within Core aura re-roll range, but it doesn't matter of course, and this puts another notch towards the First Born biker/attack bike squad. 

 

Anyone else getting games in with this unit? How are you finding it? 

[Karhedron]

Not a direct answer to your question but I have been quite pleased with running my MM Attack Bikes on a flank. Between a jump Captain for rerolls and a Jump Sanguinary Priest for healing and resurrection, they did very well.

[Prot]

Yes, I think that sort of squad combo is the way to go for now. 

[macradam_hue]

Just a quick clarification on ATV’s - as they don’t have the vehicle keyword does that mean they are -1 to hit when they move with the Heavy weapons?

[Oxydo]

Just a quick clarification on ATV’s - as they don’t have the vehicle keyword does that mean they are -1 to hit when they move with the Heavy weapons?

 

Only infantry gets the -1 to hit on heavy weapons from moving.

[Kallas]

Just a quick clarification on ATV’s - as they don’t have the vehicle keyword does that mean they are -1 to hit when they move with the Heavy weapons?

 

No, the -1 to hit penalty is specifically for Infantry moving and shooting with Heavy Weapons.

 

The Big Guns Never Tire ability (can shoot into melee, Heavy gets a -1 when doing so; Blast can't) is specifically for Vehicles.

[macradam_hue]

Thanks, that’s helpful

[Theredknight]

Ahh, but did your apothecary magically heal an ATV much like their grandfather?

‘Machine, he’s thy self’

 

 

So I've played quite a fair chunk of games with this unit now.

 

I believe you do need to 'flirt' with getting somewhat close because the 12" melta effect is just that good, and you can mitigate the inherent risk in this maneuver with layering your counter assaults, plus the ATV's do have 8 wounds, and a fair chunk of attacks.

 

Regardless, I admit I have been playing them without using the rule of bringing them back from the dead. I have no idea if that rule will stick or not, but I actually find that they are a lower target priority, and when they become a target for certain opponents, they can get wiped surprisingly easy. The models look chunky, but really at T6, 3+ they can disappear.

 

So I've personally come to the conclusion this unit is not going to replace the Attack bike, and is probably not nearly as potent as people thought (keep in mind I'm not bringing back 1 a turn with the Chief Apothecary)

 

I believe White Scars still get a little better use out of this, but I've come to find that retreating from CC and charging back in (WS) or retreating from CC and shooting at -1 (UM) is really a wash.

 

One of the biggest detractors of this unit (which really sucks) is the lack of Core key word. When you get three of these guys together it is actually quite plausible to have them within Core aura re-roll range, but it doesn't matter of course, and this puts another notch towards the First Born biker/attack bike squad.

 

Anyone else getting games in with this unit? How are you finding it?