130 replies to this topic

[Lemondish]

Neither GKs nor Tyranids are lacking the ability to win games and compete in 9th edition.

What they do lack is a unified ruleset in a recent publication, but they also share that attribute with all but 3 factions.

Edited by Lemondish, 18 October 2020 - 01:37 PM.

[Reskin]

 

Definitely a terribly thought out rule for Grey Knights. -  What GW need to do, is gather all the matched play data from their sanctioned tournaments or whatever the pro scene is where they gather data from play testing and determine the probability of GK's ever getting to use our "daemon" bonuses. I'm paying a premium for nothing.

 

Its absolutely ludicrous!

 

 

You're not paying a premium for anti-daemon rules, you're paying a premium for storm bolters and power weapons and psychic powers on basic units. Give a unit all the rules then pay a premium, that's the assumption of how points work. If you take an elite army and can't leverage all the stuff you're paying for in a game you're supposed to lose. GK are far from unplayable post Psychic Awakening. Tyranids are also far from unplayable they just have to avoid taking 90% of their codex, which GK don't have the unit variety in the first place to even think about doing.

Grey Knights are never going to be balanced as an all comers faction without throwing out the entirity of their unique flavour.

 

GK need a boost in survivability to stop them from being too reliant on glass cannon tactics but ultmately efficiently pointed GKs would be like giving Tyranids vehicles.

 

 

 

 

 

You're not paying a premium for anti-daemon rules, you're paying a premium for storm bolters and power weapons and psychic powers on basic units. Give a unit all the rules then pay a premium, that's the assumption of how points work

That's exactly my assumption. I have 4 rules for my unit and can only use 3/4 of them 19 times out 20 and yet I'm paying for all 4 rules? - That's my gripe.

 

 

 

 If you take an elite army and can't leverage all the stuff you're paying for in a game you're supposed to lose

I cant leverage all the stuff I'm paying for by virtue of the opposing army isn't daemons and it's my fault somehow? 

 

 

GK are far from unplayable post Psychic Awakening. Tyranids are also far from unplayable they just have to avoid taking 90% of their codex, which GK don't have the unit variety in the first place to even think about doing.

Grey Knights are never going to be balanced as an all comers faction without throwing out the entirity of their unique flavour.

 

Never said they were unplayable. Since PA, they are absolutely amazing, even with the release of 9th edition with increasing difficulty to smite casts. I don't seem to have a problem with them.

 

They will never be balanced with that attitude. I'd like to think they can still improve, and that's for all armies and bring each codex closer to the center of the scales. Without losing the unique flavour each army brings.

 

 

 

GK need a boost in survivability to stop them from being too reliant on glass cannon tactics

I absolutely agree, I also think they will do this with the examples of increasing 1st born vanilla marines to 2wounds. Flavourful stratagems like Transhuman I imagine will stick around for GK's like it has for darkangels.

[Schlitzaf]

So your wrong in terms of “overpaying”
A Marine w/ 1 Wo Stats is 14Points
You get a Mutli Damage Power Weapon 5-10 pts
:cussty Smite 1-3 Points
Deep Strike 2 Points
SBolter 5 Points

So collectively:
14 + 3 + 7 + 5 + 2 = 30 Points

And a Grey Strike Strike Squad only spends 20 points for all the above if you wanted to be generous and say the PowWeapon should be only 1-3 points and :cussty Smite/Deep Strike only 1 you’ll be paying 20 points for 21-23 points of value.

This isn’t to deny GK have issues or problems. But claiming “We are overpaying or paying for stats that aren’t relavent”. So lets be semi generous now.

14 Point Chassis
2 Point Power Weapon (very undercosted, 1A)
4 Point Storm Bolter (Range is Short for Fun)
2 Point Deep Strike
1 Point :cussty Smite

That is generously 23 Points in value on a 20 Point Model. :cussty Smite should closer to 2-3 points because frankly you get a real Power as well as :cussty Smite. Even if we shaved a point off deep strike sense only hakf army can. That still 22 points in value, if reduced to SBolter to 3 points as it is currently C:GK we have 21 points for 20 points in value.


So tl;dr
Grey Knights are not overpaying in any sense of the word. And compared to stock units with similar weapon/upgrade you are 33% cheaper. Furthermore much of overpayinr is argeuably taken out already. Your essentially for free getting Smite Damage and Deep Strike.
If nothing else.
1 Wound No Doctrine Marine Chassis is 14 Points
3 Point for 1A Power Weapon
3 Point for SBolter

Is 20 Points but then you get deep strike and :cussty smite on top of that.

[Reskin]

Great breakdown  Schlitzaf.

 

I stand corrected, I don't have the new marine codex, but I checked on battlescribe with marines before the new codex. 

 

A 5 man tactical squad with 1 plasma gun + sgt with power fist and plasma pistol came in at 100pts - same price as a 5 man strike squad with no special weapons and not including their free choice of halberd, sword or warding staves for free.

 

Don't tell GW this!

[Schlitzaf]

Great breakdown Schlitzaf.

I stand corrected, I don't have the new marine codex, but I checked on battlescribe with marines before the new codex.

A 5 man tactical squad with 1 plasma gun + sgt with power fist and plasma pistol came in at 100pts - same price as a 5 man strike squad with no special weapons and not including their free choice of halberd, sword or warding staves for free.

Don't tell GW this!

Best comparison point for looking at unit most comparable is Company Veterans honestly w/ PowerWeapons & SBolters for the record. Admittedly the Strike Squads need to take Falchions then for most accurate “comparison” point.

[Black Blow Fly]

The power sword going to S5 will be huge for GK .

This seems like a stealth wishlist thread imo .

Edited by Black Blow Fly, 18 October 2020 - 10:02 PM.

[Reskin]

 

 

This seems like a stealth wishlist thread imo .

 

Why don't you think GW could release all the rules for each army at the start of an edition then?

Surely expanding the rules team or having different systems in place it doesn't seem hugely difficult.

 

Then instead of codex roadmaps and having the majority of the public using old rules for more then 50% of the edition, they could just release their GT balance changes at midway or quarterly intervals

 

Did every army have its 8th edition codex before the launch of 9th edition?

 

Seems like on an organisational level, they've changed some processes and strategies (like the white dwarf for example) but not others like the codex and rules releases. 

Edited by Reskin, 19 October 2020 - 01:42 AM.

[Black Blow Fly]

The start of ninth is like eighth except they used PA to level things. Are there any other games with as many factions as 40K that releases all the rules in one fell swoop?

[MegaVolt87]

 

 

 

This seems like a stealth wishlist thread imo .

 

Why don't you think GW could release all the rules for each army at the start of an edition then?

Surely expanding the rules team or having different systems in place it doesn't seem hugely difficult.

 

Then instead of codex roadmaps and having the majority of the public using old rules for more then 50% of the edition, they could just release their GT balance changes at midway or quarterly intervals

 

Did every army have its 8th edition codex before the launch of 9th edition?

 

Seems like on an organisational level, they've changed some processes and strategies (like the white dwarf for example) but not others like the codex and rules releases. 

 

 

Its because GW is stuck in an outdated table top design model. It needs to change, having some armies only have 1-2 years in an edition with a 3/4 year cycle before an edition change etc is just not working. SM getting a second codex that was only valid a year, others never got a second re-designed dex like SM did in 8th is terrible. Ideally, all new codex's should be there at launch, new stuff can be added via things like PA, Vigilus style etc. There is enough stuff that needs new kits + resculpts, but GW prefer to prioritize new units over re-sculpting existing kits at an edition launch.

 

GW says they are a model company first and foremost, and this is true because look at the great rules they give their great models then nerf them completely when they hit the desired sales cap (8th ed knights, SM executioner). Don't worry, the second 9th ed SM codex may be more to everyone's tastes in power much like the 2nd 8th ed one, so you will get a generous one year out of it before the next game edition. 

Edited by MegaVolt87, 19 October 2020 - 02:18 AM.

[Ragnar69]

 
 
This seems like a stealth wishlist thread imo .

 
Why don't you think GW could release all the rules for each army at the start of an edition then?
Surely expanding the rules team or having different systems in place it doesn't seem hugely difficult.
 
Then instead of codex roadmaps and having the majority of the public using old rules for more then 50% of the edition, they could just release their GT balance changes at midway or quarterly intervals
 
Did every army have its 8th edition codex before the launch of 9th edition?
 
Seems like on an organisational level, they've changed some processes and strategies (like the white dwarf for example) but not others like the codex and rules releases.

Because they need a continuous stream of releases to survive as a company. If they would release all codexes at once and then a supplement each month there would be much gnashing of teeth about rules bloat. And if they don't release anything, many people would lose interest in the game.

So without a staggered release of the codexes, the game would surely die. I know it sucks to have to wait for your rules, I have been in this situation often enough. Hell, I didn't get a codex at all in 4th. At least their schedule is now really fast and not 10 years between 2 dark eldar codexes like before.

[Reskin]

 

 

 
 
This seems like a stealth wishlist thread imo .

 
Why don't you think GW could release all the rules for each army at the start of an edition then?
Surely expanding the rules team or having different systems in place it doesn't seem hugely difficult.
 
Then instead of codex roadmaps and having the majority of the public using old rules for more then 50% of the edition, they could just release their GT balance changes at midway or quarterly intervals
 
Did every army have its 8th edition codex before the launch of 9th edition?
 
Seems like on an organisational level, they've changed some processes and strategies (like the white dwarf for example) but not others like the codex and rules releases.

Because they need a continuous stream of releases to survive as a company. If they would release all codexes at once and then a supplement each month there would be much gnashing of teeth about rules bloat. And if they don't release anything, many people would lose interest in the game.

So without a staggered release of the codexes, the game would surely die. I know it sucks to have to wait for your rules, I have been in this situation often enough. Hell, I didn't get a codex at all in 4th. At least their schedule is now really fast and not 10 years between 2 dark eldar codexes like before.

 

But they are a model manufacturing company and have been mostly until 8th edition was it? When they started really seeking the communities involvement in rules.

For a model manufacturing company, they sure as hell put stellar work into their monthly magazines, their Codex's and Army books, their novels and supplements for their entire catalogue of products. Therefore, I think they aren't just a model company, but a games company in the larger scope of things.

So no, I personally don't think sales would drop, both our opinions are purely subjective, because GW have never tried it, so there's no facts to help. However for the past 20 years they've been doing it this way, and always their customers have griped about it.

Didn't their stocks fall a few years back and then they changed some of their management and implement new strategies?

One example I can think of, was their white dwarf, it used to be super thin back in 5th, then they went to Warhammer visions I think it was, a super thick very elegant picture book. I personally loved collecting those, But that business model wasn't successful and they changed.

 

They don't need to release books each month, is the GT/Munnitorum once a year where they update points and rules? Or could continue to use the PA supplements when adding new models to a range.

Edited by Reskin, 19 October 2020 - 06:39 AM.

[Skywrath]

I think the GK, while strong, still need upgrades. I'm almost tempted to say the fact that our PA was that strong was a pre-lude of that we aren't getting our codex anytime soon. At the very least what the greedy pigs over at GW could have done, is give our strikes 2W and Terminators 3W as promised, and I would have been reasonably happy with that.

Edited by Skywrath, 19 October 2020 - 06:43 AM.

[battle captain corpus]

Ok folks keep it back on topic please. This is degenerating into a general conversation about 9th vs 8th and tiered armies etc.

That’s not the topic.

The topic is the road map given to us by GW and NEWS & RUMOURS for this.

Take any other discussion points, craft them lovingly into threads elsewhere and discuss appropriately.

-][- STAY ON TOPIC -][-

BCC

Edited by battle captain corpus, 19 October 2020 - 06:57 AM.

[chapter master 454]

I think the real acid test comes from not the initial release plan, easy for GW to push a bunch of space marine releases because naturally they are their big seller but from what comes afterwards and things aren't so power armoured. Will we see this tempo maintained, 2 codices each month for 40k even if they don't have new models or will it slow down again. Time will tell. Personally, hoping to see something good for the Tau.

[Dark Shepherd]

I think the real acid test comes from not the initial release plan, easy for GW to push a bunch of space marine releases because naturally they are their big seller but from what comes afterwards and things aren't so power armoured. Will we see this tempo maintained, 2 codices each month for 40k even if they don't have new models or will it slow down again. Time will tell. Personally, hoping to see something good for the Tau.

Codices were half done/beta tested somewhat with Psychic Awakening so it should be an easier schedule. Plus some dexes were already updated and some eg Knights will be quite small. Templars aside I doubt we'll see any debuting ones eirher

[Reskin]

This is a quote taken from here on the warhammer-community site.

 

 

Now that we’ve all had a bit of time to get our heads around the new core rules, the next big shake-ups will come with this edition’s codexes. There are some big – and we mean full-on seismic – changes on their way. The upcoming range of codexes will offer so much more than an update of the datasheets and Battle-forged rules – there’ll be loads of brand-new content to look forward to, such as expansive Crusade rules that are unique to that faction. The Warhammer 40,000 rules team have also taken the opportunity to review every single unit and weapon profile for each army, and where they felt it was needed, dialed them up to 11. We’re not even joking!

 

I want to particularly highlight that last sentence. If indeed that is true, it bodes well for the future of 9th edition, and demonstrate that they are indeed changing how they actually approach a new edition of a codex.

Codex's that don't see a majority of its units see table time competitively will at least have some hope that the updates will be decent in casual play for those who partake of that.

[PJ1933]

If GW had willed it they could easily have given us another set of indexes for 9th and those factions that will wait months or maybe years for a codex update.

 

I'm happy to see DG getting a reasonably early codex as until PA they were a bit lacking and poor Morty just died T1 or T2 on a good day. The game has come to DG in terms of how it plays as they are happy to camp and tough things out sitting on objectives. It's tough rushing around the board when you are carrying a bit of extra weight like DG lardy boys and don't move as fast as you did 10,000 years ago so it will be interesting to see if Morty gets a boost in the damage per phase stakes.

 

The surprise in the release schedule is them not announcing more of their plans and the fact that the 'specialist' marine factions are not arriving back to back but I guess that helps keep marines relevant to the buying public each time a new supplement drops.

[Seahawk]

IMO, it's better to drop all the rules at the start of an edition change, then add models and rules as an edition drags on via white dwarf or other pubs. I'd also appreciate an edition lasting 5-6 years; as it is, 3 years per edition is just waaay too rapid of a changeover.

There are successful games that go many years before an edition change. 40k is starting to feel like CoD or Madden.

[Hellex_The_Thanatar]

Every army? Adrathic weapons completely reworked please.


Give me my instant death equivalent back damnit. I don't want weaker version of melta.

[Reskin]

I find it hard to balance a game when you are comparing data from a 9th edition codex to an 8th edition codex you are trying to write rules for.

Write rules for both. Play test. Amend. It’s called beta testing.

Pitting old vs new and trying to gauge what needs fixing is counter productive, that’s how we get power creep, or codexes that went from absolutely bottom of the barrel to being awesome... because they jumped so far ahead because they didn’t start out even.

[Black Blow Fly]

IMO, it's better to drop all the rules at the start of an edition change, then add models and rules as an edition drags on via white dwarf or other pubs. I'd also appreciate an edition lasting 5-6 years; as it is, 3 years per edition is just waaay too rapid of a changeover.

There are successful games that go many years before an edition change. 40k is starting to feel like CoD or Madden.

.

sixth and seventh was very close to the end for the game. WHFB needed a complete reboot... AoS is the foundation of eighth edition. Eighth edition reminded me of third edition and was sorely needed... amateur leagues were toting themselves as the saviors of 40k lol - it was just that bad. 

[Reskin]

 

IMO, it's better to drop all the rules at the start of an edition change, then add models and rules as an edition drags on via white dwarf or other pubs. I'd also appreciate an edition lasting 5-6 years; as it is, 3 years per edition is just waaay too rapid of a changeover.

There are successful games that go many years before an edition change. 40k is starting to feel like CoD or Madden.

.

sixth and seventh was very close to the end for the game. WHFB needed a complete reboot... AoS is the foundation of eighth edition. Eighth edition reminded me of third edition and was sorely needed... amateur leagues were toting themselves as the saviors of 40k lol - it was just that bad. 

 

 

6th and 7th were what made me leave the hobby.

I wasn't sure if my previous question was answered, perhaps someone with knowledge on the subject could answer.

Did every army receive it's 8th edition codex before the release of 9th edition? On top of that, did every army receive something through the Psychic Awakening expansions?

If yes, do you think GW will continue this positive trend into 9th edition?

If no, do you think GW will in fact release all army codex's for 9th edition?

Do you think we will see an expansion to follow like the psychic awakening, just under a different name? Or, given the Space Marine codex as a platform, do you think GW intended that to bring enough to the table for the entirety of the edition?

[Master Sheol]

IMO, it's better to drop all the rules at the start of an edition change, then add models and rules as an edition drags on via white dwarf or other pubs. I'd also appreciate an edition lasting 5-6 years; as it is, 3 years per edition is just waaay too rapid of a changeover.

There are successful games that go many years before an edition change. 40k is starting to feel like CoD or Madden.

.
sixth and seventh was very close to the end for the game. WHFB needed a complete reboot... AoS is the foundation of eighth edition. Eighth edition reminded me of third edition and was sorely needed... amateur leagues were toting themselves as the saviors of 40k lol - it was just that bad.

6th and 7th were what made me leave the hobby.

I wasn't sure if my previous question was answered, perhaps someone with knowledge on the subject could answer.

Did every army receive it's 8th edition codex before the release of 9th edition? On top of that, did every army receive something through the Psychic Awakening expansions?

If yes, do you think GW will continue this positive trend into 9th edition?

If no, do you think GW will in fact release all army codex's for 9th edition?

Do you think we will see an expansion to follow like the psychic awakening, just under a different name? Or, given the Space Marine codex as a platform, do you think GW intended that to bring enough to the table for the entirety of the edition?

In the first months of this edition i guess we will see all codexes redone at the pace of two books per month
Accompanying almost all books we will probably have some miniatures too (we had a glimpse with that teaser clip for the "palatine and friends") in particular for those codexes who are into a revamp of their range (CSM and Craftwolds started to get updates to their range in 8th) so some will receive just one new/revamped character and some will get some new/revamped units too

Once all the codexes for 9th will be released i can see GW releasing an updated version of the 8th edition SM supplements not only to put them in line with the new style of rules (crusade rules and so on) but also to release copies linked to the 40k app so they can get rid of all remaining 8th edition material from it
Possibile that the 9th edition SM supplements could get some miniatures too (maybe a new/revamped character or a new dedicated unit or themed lieutenant)

After all the books releases i guess we will be totally after first year of the edition (probably one year and half) and GW could release a new boxed set like Shadowspear to introduce new or revamped units for SM (new primaris units ofc) vs another army and within two years from the start of the 9th edition a new iteration of Codex SM and of the opposing force to include the changes applied by the new battle box
The opposing force could be a al ready existing one getting an update or totally new one (we are all waiting a separate codex for WE and EC with the return of Fulgrim and Angron in plastic form, aren't we?)

The third year of the 9th could see the release of campaign/narrative books like the Psychic Awakening series to introduce new or revamped models for each army alongside with new/additional/revamped rules and in the verge of 4th year of life of the 9th edition GW will drop another box like iIndomitus to make a new edition (and new primaris units for SM too)

Rinse and repeat this pattern endlessly as long as 40k sells well

This is my estimated guess on how GW will manager the releases of this edition and ad are all speculations a lot salt is required

[Joe]

If lackluster rules are all it takes for you to walk away from the hobby game then I feel for you, frater. The hobby is something else entirely. But this is a topic for another thread, really.

 

I do hope Games Workshop start doing roadmaps more often - they've been incredibly well received for Necromunda so far, and doing it for 40k too (at least, so far) is a blessing. It'll be all the better if they extend this to other systems as well, like Middle-earth, Age of Sigmar and so on.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I don't see them doing something like PA ever again. That's sort of a one time deal, don't think people will buy into it a second time. It also handled the 'unique' problem for 8E, where many factions had lackluster rules due to how rushed the game was. As long as things are roughly compatible going forward, that level of updating shouldn't really be necessary.

 

The roadmaps are good and handy I think. Although it's a little pointless that they won't just tell us the January books, it's quite helpful for the players that have books announced to know when they're coming out.