43 replies to this topic

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Well, something has gone wrong somewhere, Vigilus ablaze puts him right back to his classic moustache twirling Saturday cartoon villain self, then as Prot says Saturine bulks up his character growth a lot. Then he salty and just sends the planet killer on the way to Vigilus basically after the Vengful Spirit is trashed even more than it was and he left a non bootlicker CSM Lt in charge on the bridge ready to do a runner without him on board. Doesn't really put his leadership and command abilities in a good light in Vigilus Ablaze IMO.

 

I think Vigilus Ablaze was just bottled up for so long no one bothered to check it and do a revision in the relevant lore sections. Also it annoys me that Abaddon seemingly has one of the best set of recourses available to him, but can't get the Vengful Spirit back to 100% functionality for the new age on, but Macragge's Honour, the Phalanx etc can seemingly stay at 100% functionality for 10k+ years in a technologically declining Imperium? 

Vigilus would have been so much better if Calgar had died horribly to Abaddon.  That might have been a better way to build up the Black Legion as an existential threat if their leader waylays the reborn primaris UM chaptermaster like a complete chump.  

[Snazzy]

I think Abaddon has the same problem as Perturabo. His writing is inconsistent. The Horus Heresy series makes him seem like a thuggish brute while The Siege of Terra and Black Legion novels make him seem like a calculating Warrior King capable of inspiring both great admiration and fear in his followers and others, including the audience. Then like someone mentioned earlier, Vigilus Ablaze and The Fall of Cadia just make him seem like a brute again. I think we need to remember that while everything is canon not everything is true as GW has said before. So basically, pick the idea of Abaddon- you prefer. If you prefer the megalomaniacal, ultraviolent gangster version of Abaddon, that's great! If you prefer the version where Abaddon is a noble heretic astartes ruthlessly fighting for Astartes unity and to tear down an empire that he believes had betrayed it's greatest warriors and builders then that's great too! I think what's great about these larger than life figures GW gives us in the narrative is we can disagree about their nature and everyone is right in a way.

 

I would point out that Horus recruited Abaddon into the Mournival because he was a brutish thug.  It is a part of his personality, whether or not it makes him look good as the Warmaster of Chaos.

[Lucerne]

 

Well, something has gone wrong somewhere, Vigilus ablaze puts him right back to his classic moustache twirling Saturday cartoon villain self, then as Prot says Saturine bulks up his character growth a lot. Then he salty and just sends the planet killer on the way to Vigilus basically after the Vengful Spirit is trashed even more than it was and he left a non bootlicker CSM Lt in charge on the bridge ready to do a runner without him on board. Doesn't really put his leadership and command abilities in a good light in Vigilus Ablaze IMO.

 

I think Vigilus Ablaze was just bottled up for so long no one bothered to check it and do a revision in the relevant lore sections. Also it annoys me that Abaddon seemingly has one of the best set of recourses available to him, but can't get the Vengful Spirit back to 100% functionality for the new age on, but Macragge's Honour, the Phalanx etc can seemingly stay at 100% functionality for 10k+ years in a technologically declining Imperium? 

Vigilus would have been so much better if Calgar had died horribly to Abaddon.  That might have been a better way to build up the Black Legion as an existential threat if their leader waylays the reborn primaris UM chaptermaster like a complete chump.  

 

Or just...don't Primarisify Calgar, have Abaddon take his head, and promote Sicarius. Instead, we have him doddering around at Bobby's heels indefinitely.

[Xenith]

 

You couldn't be more wrong.  Abaddon has resisted the Chaos gods for 10,000 years he knew the mistake Horus made and is one of the most self controlled individuals in the 40k universe, regardless of Talos.

 

 

 

And what was the mistake Horus made?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people are hard on Abaddon, mostly because they don't actually read the material, however Abaddon has the luxury of not having to make damning pacts with the Chaos Gods because he doesn't have to fight the Emperor.

 

Anyway, Horus spent an eternity in the realms of the Chaos gods leading their armies in battle to earn their favour (Vengeful Spirit), the fact he didn't die, devolve, or submit to any one god and become a daemon prince, by your own metric, shows that he has the same 'self control' as Abaddon. 

Edited by Xenith, 21 October 2020 - 03:56 PM.

[Prot]

 

 

You couldn't be more wrong.  Abaddon has resisted the Chaos gods for 10,000 years he knew the mistake Horus made and is one of the most self controlled individuals in the 40k universe, regardless of Talos.

 

 

 

And what was the mistake Horus made?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people are hard on Abaddon, mostly because they don't actually read the material, however Abaddon has the luxury of not having to make damning pacts with the Chaos Gods because he doesn't have to fight the Emperor.

 

Anyway, Horus spent an eternity in the realms of the Chaos gods leading their armies in battle to earn their favour (Vengeful Spirit), the fact he didn't die, devolve, or submit to any one god and become a daemon prince, by your own metric, shows that he has the same 'self control' as Abaddon. 

 

 

I think there's one thing that always stands out to me that makes the bolded statement almost too... incomplete. People generally seem to forget that Horus was literally on his death bed. He was a goner.

 

The selfish act to save himself started that ugly pact from day one. (Thanks to those dirty Word Bearers and their dirty xenos shiv).  In those moments Horus was severely mislead into delusional fairy tales about how the Emperor is doing it all for himself, etc, etc. (If you recall Horus in these death thrashes was under the heavy influence of the chaos poisoned blade.)

 

It's at that point really, on his death bed, in chaos delusional dreamland, that Horus says, 'Okay, give me more of the kool-aid, and sign me up!'

 

All that time, Abaddon never really had those dilemmas to deal with. If we step back to those moments, recall that Abaddon festered. Why wasn't that selfish Emperor here? Why was he holed up in his castle on Terra while his favoured son is dying for His cause? 

 

There are -very- old pieces of fiction that are hard to find now. I probably read them... 10 years ago if I'm guessing. I was always struck with the images of the final moments of the (abbreviated) description of Horus' very final moments vs. the Emperor. 

 

I don't want to spoil anything here, but suffice to say according to that very old fiction, Horus was.... severely manipulated. (I don't know if that's how it will play out with the modern authors. Much has changed.)

 

Abaddon had none of that on his plate. He truly took his own path. There is a far more recent passage in the HH series that shows Abaddon kind of... signing up to join a very bizarre, dark group of entities that have been watching Abaddon. They make a pact with him of sorts. He seems to 'owe' service to these dark warp demi-gods. He will become one of them perhaps. He seems to suit a certain make up that they look to enlist. It's an interesting side note to this conversation. But it appears Abaddon will have a dark, violent club to join in the afterlife (not like his current life is full of cookies and fairy tales.) This club, for lack of a better term, seems to operate on the outskirts of Chaos. 

 

Abaddon definitely walks his own path. Chaos needs him but can't control him like Horus was. Frankly if it weren't for Horus I don't personally believe Abaddon would have went astray. But Chaos made sure to show Abaddon how little the Emperor cared for any of them, and that started the fires in Abaddon's heart. 

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

You couldn't be more wrong.  Abaddon has resisted the Chaos gods for 10,000 years he knew the mistake Horus made and is one of the most self controlled individuals in the 40k universe, regardless of Talos.

 

 

 

And what was the mistake Horus made?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people are hard on Abaddon, mostly because they don't actually read the material, however Abaddon has the luxury of not having to make damning pacts with the Chaos Gods because he doesn't have to fight the Emperor.

 

Anyway, Horus spent an eternity in the realms of the Chaos gods leading their armies in battle to earn their favour (Vengeful Spirit), the fact he didn't die, devolve, or submit to any one god and become a daemon prince, by your own metric, shows that he has the same 'self control' as Abaddon. 

 

Horus gave himself completely to Chaos, giving up his autonomy.  If the chaos gods want you dead for whatever reason its far easier for them to kill you if they own you.

[Snazzy]

 

Or just...don't Primarisify Calgar, have Abaddon take his head, and promote Sicarius. Instead, we have him doddering around at Bobby's heels indefinitely.

 

 

Because Calgar is there to help sell the concept of the Primaris.  He provides continuity to the pre-Primaris past, while also lecturing about how it is bad to refuse the Rubicon.  Calgar surviving reinforces the wisdom of his decision to cross it.  Although Firstborn getting 2W in the rules muddies the waters.  Nothing new, there.

 

 

And what was the mistake Horus made?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that people are hard on Abaddon, mostly because they don't actually read the material, however Abaddon has the luxury of not having to make damning pacts with the Chaos Gods because he doesn't have to fight the Emperor.

 

The mistake Horus made was challenging The Emperor.  He had no chance in defeating him, Chaos pacts or otherwise.  You could argue that the power Horus sought is what allowed him to defeat Sanguinius with relative ease.  Abaddon's criticism about Horus being a slave to Chaos is also incorrect, as The Emperor destroyed Horus's soul.  Abaddon was upset at how much Horus had changed from the man he respected prior to the Heresy, to the semi comatosed monster he had become by the of the Siege of Terra.

 

If Abaddon really thought Horus had the galaxy in his hands he is overlooking his own part in bringing about Horus's downfall.  He did not have the galaxy in his hand.  The Siege of Terra was a gamble that Abaddon and Fulgrim lost.  All of his criticisms about Horus deflections for his own failures.

[Irate Khornate]

The Siege of Terra has the same issues that Angron has with his character book, it's written into a pre existing corner.

And honestly, Abaddon is likely both the brutish thug and the tactician. He definitely has the brutish and blunt thug part down in Horus Rising, but you don't get to be First Captain of an entire Legion by being just a thug. He shows his true colors around those he considers his brothers, even showing his sense of humor and just how exhausted he is. Around the others though, those bound to him in name only, he wears the face of a brutish thug as its how he does both political and martial battle.

[Xenith]

 

Horus gave himself completely to Chaos, giving up his autonomy. 

 

Do you have a quote or a reference for this? First I've heard of it. The existing fluff says that Horus was infused withthe power of the chaos gods, and when they realised the Emperor was going to win the duel, they withdrew it all from Horus (Slaves to Darkness?) - impossible if they had already elevated him to daemon, where he becomes an extension of the god's will, albeit indestructible.

 

That said, Horus was corrupted by Chaos on Davin, and it's a different argument as to what actions are his and what are influenced by the corruption spreading through him. In the end, Horus was Lorgar/Kor Phaeron/Erebus's pawn, and Lorgar is Chaos's pawn. 

 

From that perspective, Abaddon is not being manipulated by anyone we know of, save Chaos itself, and while taking on the favour of all four gods (Mark of Chaos Ascendant) he hasn't allowed their power into him in the same way as Horus. Again, Horus only did this as it was the only way he could take on the Emperor (Vengeful Spirit), so a sacrifice made willingly for the greater gambit.

Edited by Xenith, 22 October 2020 - 06:52 AM.

[TorvaldTheMild]

 

 

Horus gave himself completely to Chaos, giving up his autonomy. 

 

Do you have a quote or a reference for this? First I've heard of it. The existing fluff says that Horus was infused withthe power of the chaos gods, and when they realised the Emperor was going to win the duel, they withdrew it all from Horus (Slaves to Darkness?) - impossible if they had already elevated him to daemon, where he becomes an extension of the god's will, albeit indestructible.

 

That said, Horus was corrupted by Chaos on Davin, and it's a different argument as to what actions are his and what are influenced by the corruption spreading through him. In the end, Horus was Lorgar/Kor Phaeron/Erebus's pawn, and Lorgar is Chaos's pawn. 

 

From that perspective, Abaddon is not being manipulated by anyone we know of, save Chaos itself, and while taking on the favour of all four gods (Mark of Chaos Ascendant) he hasn't allowed their power into him in the same way as Horus. Again, Horus only did this as it was the only way he could take on the Emperor (Vengeful Spirit), so a sacrifice made willingly for the greater gambit.

 

Yeah Abaddon never went to the Obsidian Gate.  

[Bloody Legionnaire]

Wow.. I'm sorry I don't have anything valuable to add, but I'm pretty blown away by the wealth of knowledge in this thread. I've been collecting/playing different versions of Chaos starting with KDK in 7th edition but I haven't really known about the depth of their fluff. WH30k/HH added a layer, but the complexities in 40k are almost a whole other beast. 

I bought Abaddon because it's an incredible looking model and I have a Black Legion army/collection going, but I know have newly found motivation to invest more into this Army after reading this thread. I definitely can appreciate Abaddon more after reading this and I honestly feel like I did after listening to the first half of 'First Heretic' when you see how the Emperor responded to Lorgar and the path he was set on after the destruction of Monarchia. 

[Snazzy]

I want to be clear.  My continued support for the Failbaddon meme at this point is criticism of how GW executed Abaddon's early history.  As mentioned, they had to retcon things in order to make him more threatening.  I have nothing against Abaddon, and i rather like the idea of a non Primarch putting things back together.  

[MegaVolt87]

I want to be clear.  My continued support for the Failbaddon meme at this point is criticism of how GW executed Abaddon's early history.  As mentioned, they had to retcon things in order to make him more threatening.  I have nothing against Abaddon, and i rather like the idea of a non Primarch putting things back together.  

 

Not just that I think a lot of the anger is actually on how he has been built up and developed well and completely torn down again to his original incarnation, "Failbaddon". Pretty much the godfather meme of "look how they massacred my boy." 

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Wow.. I'm sorry I don't have anything valuable to add, but I'm pretty blown away by the wealth of knowledge in this thread. I've been collecting/playing different versions of Chaos starting with KDK in 7th edition but I haven't really known about the depth of their fluff. WH30k/HH added a layer, but the complexities in 40k are almost a whole other beast. 

I bought Abaddon because it's an incredible looking model and I have a Black Legion army/collection going, but I know have newly found motivation to invest more into this Army after reading this thread. I definitely can appreciate Abaddon more after reading this and I honestly feel like I did after listening to the first half of 'First Heretic' when you see how the Emperor responded to Lorgar and the path he was set on after the destruction of Monarchia. 

Read The Talon of Horus by Aaron Demski-Bowden.  It is some of the best writing from Black Library.  The audiobook is also first rate.  It sounds like Charles Dance is reading 40k lore to you.   

[tangoalphatwo]

Read The Talon of Horus by Aaron Demski-Bowden. It is some of the best writing from Black Library. The audiobook is also first rate. It sounds like Charles Dance is reading 40k lore to you.

I don’t know who Charles Dance is, but 1000x yes! Literally my favorite audiobook, almost of all time in the history of ever. I have close to like 500 books in my audible account. I’ve read probably near close to a thousand books in my life. Everything from the decline and fall of the Roman Empire to the girl on the train, and again.... The Abaddon books are two of my favorite of all time.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

 

Read The Talon of Horus by Aaron Demski-Bowden. It is some of the best writing from Black Library. The audiobook is also first rate. It sounds like Charles Dance is reading 40k lore to you.

I don’t know who Charles Dance is.

 

https://img3.goodfon...-tywin-5457.jpg

[tangoalphatwo]

Read The Talon of Horus by Aaron Demski-Bowden. It is some of the best writing from Black Library. The audiobook is also first rate. It sounds like Charles Dance is reading 40k lore to you.

I don’t know who Charles Dance is.

https://img3.goodfon...-tywin-5457.jpg

Oh, really? I dunno. It was good. I liked it and all, but I didn’t think it was anything special...


Oh! Ha. Sorry. I’m an idiot.

Hahaha! And yes. I totally agree!!!

I kinda liked it. I thought the authors older voice made it sound like he was recalling events when he was younger. Like he was looking back on his youth with nostalgia

Edited by tangoalphatwo, 24 January 2021 - 12:39 AM.

[Prot]

I've said this many times before (even in this thread) but Abaddon's personality has changed considerably throughout the years of fiction involving him.

 

It had to change. He grew well beyond that original thugery. I see even in Saturnine (and that is waaay before Black Legion) he is far more mature. His ability to lead is ten fold better than he used to be represented as. 

 

Like I said, he's being written like a modern Huron Blackheart; a little bit crazy, charismatic, and having a presence of power about him.

 

I think Vigilus was a giant ball drop on Abaddon though. It started to look like it was going to have meaning, and a truly notable victory. All that came out of it was the worst character release since Doom Rider (Haarkan) , and a crack in Calgar's breast plate. 

[battle captain corpus]

Yeah I do feel that finally Abaddon is coming fill circle and back to old school 2nd edt levels of Uber cool! Only time will tell how he’s adapted to 9th edition but I’m happy with him at last.

BCC