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Supplement, Successors, and Special Units


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#1
jaxom

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The Ultima Founding has provided a lore reason for there to be official Space Wolf successors and Codex: Space Marines says that their successors cannot take Tactical, Assault, etc. Index Astartes makes no reference to successor chapters, but I assume the supplement will detail that successor chapters can take the Codex-parallel units (Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, etc). Do people think that the upcoming supplement will also allow successor chapters to take the special units (like Thunderwolf Cavalry or Wulfen) or that those units will receives a hard SPACE WOLVES faction keyword?


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#2
Karhedron

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Whilst a restriction on TWC and Wulfen might make fluff-sense, I can't see GW implementing it for the simple reason that it would make successors just a weakened version of Wolves. I think GW will either give us full successor rules or none at all. Successors with a load of restrictions based on fluff would be a compromise that upsets everyone. Provide proper successor rules and if people want to build a Primaris-only force like Wolf Spear, let them choose that restriction in their composition rather than enforcing it.
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#3
NightHowler

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I know my opinion isn’t the most popular one, but this is just one more reason why I hope GW retcons Wolfspear and the idea of Space Wolf successors out of the lore and keeps it the way it’s been for the last 10,000 years. Space Wolf proper, or one of the Lost Companies.

Edited by NightHowler, 18 October 2020 - 06:39 PM.

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#4
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Personally I think you should have to be space wolves or take the one the trait that copies the wolves one to gain access to the chapter specific units. I could be wrong but I thought that was how it worked with BA and DA with the exception of flesh tearers (who have their own rules).

It would make sense that the wolves would send watch packs to mentor the newer chapters, and to be prepared for the worst (wolf brothers) but that should influence how the new chapter operates.

#5
WrathOfTheLion

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That is not quite how it works for BA or DA. BA have no restriction on trait at all. DA are the closest to the SW index on successors. Any successor can take their special units, however, they are required to take the chapter trait Grim Resolve to get the Inner Circle and Jink special abilities. It is the same with Berserker Charge rule for SW.

 

For DA, this is also why they made Inner Circle and Jink much more improved, to incentivize taking it even when it essentially negates the chapter tactic. Otherwise, people would just run custom successor tactics and pull in Deathwing Knights or whatever the unit of the week is. This requires them to adhere to the actual DA doctrines to get the good stuff, rule-wise.

 

I think there should be no restriction on units. I like that it is more open ended for folks to do what they want with it. People make and paint SW successors anyways and would just play them as SW, so it would be a completely pointless restriction, especially now that they could promote their own leaders even within the framework of the SWs.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 18 October 2020 - 07:11 PM.

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#6
Ragnar69

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They are streamlining the marines. They will have the exact same rules as all other marine chapters, i.e. ultramarines. So special characters nay but special units yay.

#7
VIth

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I know my opinion isn’t the most popular one, but this is just one more reason why I hope GW retcons Wolfspear and the idea of Space Wolf successors out of the lore and keeps it the way it’s been for the last 10,000 years. Space Wolf proper, or one of the Lost Companies.


I’d much rather than they retconned the current iteration of Wulfen and the always-awful TWC than changing the fact that there are Primaris Space Wolf successors. The original legion was 100% Terran, for goodness sake.
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#8
Firnwulf

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The original legion had neither TWC nor Wulfen.

 

Lorewise it would make sense if successor chapters could only take Primaris.

Game wise would that make them just a normal primaris chapter with pelts.



#9
Bryan Blaire

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The original legion had neither TWC nor Wulfen.

Lorewise it would make sense if successor chapters could only take Primaris.
Game wise would that make them just a normal primaris chapter with pelts.

:lol: The original Space Wolves for 40K didn't have Wulfen or TWC - they weren't "just a normal Chapter with pelts" then either. "Wulfen" (13th Company) didn't show up until late 3rd Edition with the 13th Black Crusade, and IIRC, Thunderwolf Cavalry were a 5th Edition insert along with the great majority of the Flanderization of the Wolves.

The latter wasn't an improvement and the idea of Thunderwolves as mounts is absolutely ridiculous anyway (no, that fact doesn't go away just because some people love them and they were a power unit for SW for a while) - so no loss there if that went away for Successors. At best, they should be hunting companions on bases, but the mount thing is just dumb - that's my fix for the ridiculousness of the kit and idea, if I should ever bother to buy one.

The idea of Successors for the Wolves isn't that universe-shattering any more than the dumbness of the Thunderwolf Cavalry is, but like the TWC, GW needs to put in a little more thought and time in on them:
-Did the Canis Helix get seeded into the populations of more planets than previously thought, and it was just bad luck that the Wolf Brothers were recruited from the wrong home world?
-Is there an alteration to the initiate himself to allow the Canis Helix to be inserted and incorporated prior to the beginning of implantation of gene-seed (almost a pre-gene seed)?
-Do they utilize both templates of Marines, or do they only utilize the Primaris template?
-Do they bring/get given some kind of "frost seed" to generate iced weapons, or is there some tech utilized for it instead?

I'm sure there's plenty more to ask, and it would actually likely be interesting to all Chapters to learn some of the answers, because it might give greater insight into GW's thoughts behind creating any new Chapter.
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#10
WrathOfTheLion

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That Fenris could support the entire VI legion and then now can only support a couple thousand at most always struck me as silly.

 

Now I also don't see 'Primaris-only' successors. What is stopping a Primaris chapter from getting into a bound and having to create new brothers using the standard process? Such as if they're stuck in Imperium Nihilus with limited supplies? The Imperium Nihilus is cut off from the rest of the Imperium, we shouldn't be seeing shiny, factory-new MK X armour for very long there. Any chapter there will have difficulty with logistics, and likely is going to be modifying, splicing and converting older marks of plate to either work with MK X armour, or even just modifying old plate to work with them.

 

I do think that any successors should have access to all the units, like BA/DA successors do. This is simply utilitarian however, as with the ability to promote custom officers would make it an entirely pointless restriction.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 19 October 2020 - 01:49 PM.

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#11
Triszin

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legion era had teh deathswron. which was essentially 30k wolves starting to go wulfen.


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#12
Bulwyf

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I have been a fan of SW since their beginning and it never set right with me that the canis helix only works with Fenrisian applicants. If there was something special to the DNA of them why not just take some and colonize other planets and thus have more recruiting worlds? That one sentence would solve any further questions about SW successors. They are from planet X and recruit from that planet because it was colonized. And oh, yeah, they brought Thunderwolves with them so you can have TWC as well.


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#13
Wolf Guard Dan

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In one of the novels doesn’t Magnus or a T Son mention something about knowing more about what happened to the wolf brothers. I took it as the T Sons had something to do with the wolf brothers going nuts. Magnus feared space wolf successors enough to invade Fenris. Manipulating the wolf brothers would be much easier. So Magnus messed it up enough that the Imperium and SW didn’t want to even bother trying again. Which in all fairness, Russ didn’t want the SW broken up anyway so the SW weren’t going to push to try again.
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#14
WrathOfTheLion

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I have been a fan of SW since their beginning and it never set right with me that the canis helix only works with Fenrisian applicants. If there was something special to the DNA of them why not just take some and colonize other planets and thus have more recruiting worlds? That one sentence would solve any further questions about SW successors. They are from planet X and recruit from that planet because it was colonized. And oh, yeah, they brought Thunderwolves with them so you can have TWC as well.

I am perfectly fine with them addressing some of the stuff that makes no sense when it comes to successors. It's the same reason I'm fine with the 30k Deathwing having bone colour on their armour - the obvious thing to address is that all of the 2nd founding DA chapters have bone in their colour scheme, so it obviously had to exist in some capacity before the old GSC lore story.

 

For Space Wolves, the obvious inconsistency is that the VI legion existed prior to finding Russ. So we already know there must be other populations and planets that are capable of supporting Space Wolf geneseed as recruiting worlds. Perhaps it is more selective, but if they could find a suitable population on Terra during the Unification Wars, they can find suitable populations elsewhere as well, or colonize with a suitable population as you mention.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 19 October 2020 - 05:24 PM.

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#15
VIth

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Now I also don't see 'Primaris-only' successors. What is stopping a Primaris chapter from getting into a bound and having to create new brothers using the standard process? Such as if they're stuck in Imperium Nihilus with limited supplies? The Imperium Nihilus is cut off from the rest of the Imperium, we shouldn't be seeing shiny, factory-new MK X armour for very long there. Any chapter there will have difficulty with logistics, and likely is going to be modifying, splicing and converting older marks of plate to either work with MK X armour, or even just modifying old plate to work with them.

That doesn’t make any sense. Any successor chapters would be new. There’s no logical reason newly formed successor chapter would have in place all the tools to make old school marines but not Primaris marines.

I totally agree with the points others have raised about the nonsensical fluff fairy dust prohibition on successors: the VIth Legion existed prior to Russ. Once he was found, the success rate of turning normal men (well, adolescents) into space marines improved dramatically, but his presence wasn’t required.

It was sometimes implied that the fall of the Wolf Brothers was as much to do with Tzeentchian scheming as geneseed issues, and that makes as much sense as anything.

I would finally point out that part of the reason our core units have been so lackluster in recent editions as opposed to their top tier position in 5th ed is precisely because of the presence of Thunder Wolves and Wulfen. People who complain about successors as “just marines” don’t know what it was like when Grey Hunters and Long Fangs were the envy of the competitive meta. Without TWC and Wulfen, it gave GW a reason to make our core infantry units really unique; with them, it’s hard from a game design perspective to give our chapter completely unique options (TWC/Wulfen) and similar options (Grey Hunters, Long Fangs, Blood Claws, Wolf Priests) and make them all really good. What has happened is that TWC and Wulfen were made really good and you couldn’t then justify making Grey Hunters a functionally better version of Tactical Marines because of more and better options and rules. It is for this reason that I sold off all my old Space Wolves and started over with Primaris-only and I’m really hoping we eventually get to a place where our standard infantry are good again because of the unique Space Wolves rules they have versus other chapters.

PS/edit: there’s no reason at all anyone has to be from Fenris/have the tampered-with DNA to successfully become a Space Wolf. First of all, that’s new-ish lore to justify Magnus saying there’re no wolves on Fenris. Hardy-har-har. Second, even with that being the case the VIth Legion was a legion before Russ was found. There was a high death rate among aspirants given the VIth legion geneseed which isn’t the case with native Fenrisians, but the original legion was entirely Terran. We know as a matter of (fictional) fact that successors could be formed on any random planet in the Imperium, it’s just that the aspirants would likely have a higher-than-average failure rate.

Edited by VIth, 19 October 2020 - 06:05 PM.


#16
NightHowler

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It wasn’t about aspirant failure rates, it was about gene seed instability. The Wolf Brothers were a successor chapter with full fledged marines, not failed aspirants. But those marines all eventually went full wulfen.

I also disagree that our grey hunters became lackluster after the introduction of Wulfen and Thunderwolf Cavalry. They were still better than tactical marines, but Wulfen and TWC were so much better that armies were built around them to the neglect of our (still very good) troop choices.

This lore isn’t just a Tzeenchian deception. We had a wolf priest (his name escapes me at the moment) who’s life work was trying to find a way to stabilize the gene seed to make successors a possibility and Magnus felt so threatened by his work that he assaulted the fang to stop it.

More than all of this, I actually liked this part of being a Space Wolf. It made us different. I claimed to play a lost company with pride, not because I felt like I had to.

Edited by NightHowler, 19 October 2020 - 07:15 PM.

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#17
Bulwyf

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The problem in regards with some of the latest posts it that GW has firmly moved SW into the "yes, they have successor chapters" category. I agree that before this made SW unique even if logically it made no damn sense at all. See my previous post for how they could have gotten around that or still could for that matter. 

 

So we have lost the unique SW are only ever proper SW, we're basically a small Legion force since it is 13 Great Companies running around the galaxy and we have unique units. 9th edition has condensed us into regular space marines with successors and little in terms of uniqueness. Yes, I know the supplement is coming soon. I hope we have answers to these questions as to why NOW out of all these 10k years we will finally have successful successor chapters.

 

I already know the answer is Do It All Cawl who just plot devices things into being since the end of 7th edition. I also started in 8th to switch my SW to just Primaris while taking some units because I liked them: Wulfen, Terminators, dreds, etc. I just hope our unique units are put in a position to be worth taking in 9th after the supplement. I am totally fine with running armies of TWC, Dreds, termies and assault intercessors. 


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#18
Bulwyf

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In one of the novels doesn’t Magnus or a T Son mention something about knowing more about what happened to the wolf brothers. I took it as the T Sons had something to do with the wolf brothers going nuts. Magnus feared space wolf successors enough to invade Fenris. Manipulating the wolf brothers would be much easier. So Magnus messed it up enough that the Imperium and SW didn’t want to even bother trying again. Which in all fairness, Russ didn’t want the SW broken up anyway so the SW weren’t going to push to try again.

 

To answer your question, yes, that's what happens. Magnus did some warp shenanigans with the Wolf Brothers to make their gene seed go haywire. After that the SW would not allow any other successor. Logically speaking they could have done so since the original Legion were all Terran and I'm sure they could find other planets to get stable geneseed aspirants.

 

But that's not how the fluff went until now in 9th when we have confirmed SW successor chapters that AFAIK have no ties to Fenris. 


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#19
Karhedron

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I just hope our unique units are put in a position to be worth taking in 9th after the supplement. I am totally fine with running armies of TWC, Dreds, termies and assault intercessors.


I would argue our unique units are already in a strong position. Grey Hunters are 2 points cheaper than Intercessors for the same number of wounds. The free Chainsword gives them the same number of attacks at and 1 point better on AP. Add a WGPL and the leadership is the same and they can double-down on special weapons. The only thing Intercessors have is a slightly better gun.

Are Grey Hunters top tier again? I haven't played enough games of 9th to tell for sure but they are definitely strong.

Edited by Karhedron, 19 October 2020 - 08:44 PM.

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#20
VIth

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I would argue our unique units are already in a strong position. Grey Hunters are 2 points cheaper than Intercessors for the same number of wounds. The free Chainsword gives them the same number of attacks at and 1 point better on AP. Add a WGPL and the leadership is the same and they can double-down on special weapons. The only thing Intercessors have is a slightly better gun.

Are Grey Hunters top tier again? I haven't played enough games of 9th to tell for sure but they are definitely strong.
Are Grey Hunters top tier again? I haven't played enough games of 9th to tell for sure but they are definitely strong.

This is related to the point I was trying to make, though: because we have unique options, there's no incentive from GW from a game design perspective to now make our Intercessors unique. I had convinced myself going into 8th that Space Wolves Intercessors would be able to take chairswords and special weapons, but learned my lesson the hard way.

The 5th edition analogue that would make Space Wolves truly unique again would be to allow Intercessors to take a chainsword in addition to their bolt rifle/ABR and give one member a Hellblaster (two if the squad is a full strength) and not allow them to form combat squads, or maybe letting Assault Intercessors form up to squads of 15, etc, etc. Little things like that would add so much flavor but GW game designers feel no pressure to do this because we already have our special snowflake unique models (TWC, Wulfen, Dreads, aircraft). Another simple fix would be giving out the Bloodclaw, Grey Hunter, and Long Fang keyword to certain Primaris units, and actually thinking through the new pack progression process which is completely jacked-up now that all new aspirants are Primaris.

Edited by VIth, 19 October 2020 - 09:16 PM.


#21
Bryan Blaire

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but GW game designers feel no pressure to do this because we already have our special snowflake unique models (TWC, Wulfen, Dreads, aircraft)

I think you're misattributing reasoning there - none of the Chapters have a "special snowflake unit models" of Primaris except the Ultramarines, and even that unit is a set of bodyguards. If it simply had to do with already having special snowflake models, then they would have taken the time to make a few Primaris unique units for the Ravenguard, Imperial Fists, White Scars, etc. - Chapters that very much deserve unique units too and have never gotten them.

Instead, it is much more likely that GW has simply determined that given the design space and the "development stage" of the Primaris in the setting, this is how they all currently operate.

It's not something anti-Space Wolf because of unique models already existing, all of the more divergent Chapters have wanted some unique Primaris units for them and all already had some unique models - all Primaris are less unique for all Chapters than units they had before, even Chapters who really only had legacy units from being Legions but maybe didn't even operate differently, they just had fun names - even those names are gone with Primaris. Primaris are a clean slate for everyone at this point.

I still have hope that we players might see a new Chapter/gene-line unique Primaris unit or three this Edition (for the Wolves or any gene-line), but it clearly won't be with the upcoming Supplement(s), but maybe one in a couple years time - to me, that would be the benefit of the Supplement structure - you can introduce unique stuff at any time for any gene-line without disturbing any of the other ones by needing to reprint a Codex, etc. Hoping that comes to pass this Edition.
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#22
ORKILL

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I am dreading this supplement. Playing Wolves in 9th Ed is like going to Motorhead concert and seeing Nickleback on stage instead.


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#23
Karack Blackstone

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Not fully sure how I feel yet.

 

Far too many variables, however attempting to stay positive.

 

Negative vibes and outlooks still make sense.

 

GW is tryin to be more true to the units and lore, now if GW can avoid the Codex Creep of previous editions, 9th might actually be fun and playable throughout.



#24
Jarl Caldersson

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I am dreading this supplement. Playing Wolves in 9th Ed is like going to Motorhead concert and seeing Nickleback on stage instead.


Care to elaborate why?

-------------------------------------
I am all for successors. The canis helix only working with fenrisians never made sense. Majority of the legion was terran and drank from the cup of wulfen as well, and didn't have adverse effects. It was lore that was put in place with little consideration of logistics or other lore. This also applies to "SW could only recruit from Fenris".

The issue is that SW are backed into a corner, only 12 companies on 1 low population planet. Then ignoring all but 2 or 3 companies and making 1 the poster boy. Finally they are now a singular theme of "wolfy", which disregards a portion of the player base that don't want that. Every other chapter does this, but has successors that can diverge just look at IF and BT.

Successors can only allow more people to enjoy what they want and be sons of Russ. I've even talked to a few of you and others SW players and know that they would leave this chapter if we didn't get successors. We can talk about what is fluffy and not, but there is a counter argument for each point. Fluff is liquid and can be changed with a few strokes of the pen. Wolf Brothers failed? Nope, 1ksons interfered. SW need canis helix? We can now generate more for successors. Etc.
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#25
Triszin

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So.

Always put your expectations at 0.

The recent books have been quite good, and yet we also know nothing about it.

But the good news is we should find out tidbitts of the wolf supp in 2-3 weeks.

Honestly not to long.

Let's try to reserve judgement as much as possible, and if we don't like the result. Form a summarized well thought out opinion and email//fill out he's yearly surveys to express our positive constructive criticism. With an emphasis on positive and constructive.
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