124 replies to this topic

[PeteySödes]

Maybe i'm wrong but i think the apprehension comes from the recent not-so-great fluff. For my part, i'm all for successors as long as we can keep our great companies which i don't see why that would change. My other hope is that its not just "suddenly successors!" and they address is in an interesting way other than because "Cawl rulez" which brings us back to my first point...

Edited by PeteySödes, 20 October 2020 - 01:53 PM.
typing without coffee

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I agree with Petey on this one. I dont fear charge if its implemented well, but the past has tainted my hopes of a good implementation.

My other fear is that they will screw around with the fluff of our structure and progression, the claw-hunter-fang progress, to make it fit better for Primaris.

I am excited for our supplement, however I approach it with some trepidation.

[PeteySödes]

My other fear is that they will screw around with the fluff of our structure and progression, the claw-hunter-fang progress, to make it fit better for Primaris.
 

 

This is an interesting point to IMO because they sort of already did right? The adoption of our pack designations for battle line, fire support etc already kinda happened. I think thats the other piece where i hope they would tread carefully because done poorly it reads like we are being "brought to heel" in line with the codex bit by bit which doesn't take an astropath to realize most wolf players hate the idea of.

[VIth]

This goes into my earlier complaints that having so many unique units already disincentivizes thinking through the new Primaris fluff and rules for Space Wolves.  Instead of giving unique options and organizational structure to the Primaris units, i.e. Assault Intercessors (maybe Incursors) = Bloodclaw equivalent and can be taken in units up to 15, Intercessors = Grey Hunter equivalent and can take different options than vanilla Intercessors, Eradicators/Hellblasters = Long Fangs, Aggressors = Wolf Guard (Bladeguard Veterans do, which is nice), we continue to have our many unique Firstborn options but then entirely generic/vanilla Primaris.

I mean, let's get real: at this point it doesn't even make sense to have Firstborn Bloodclaws.  The timeline has advanced over 200 years so it's well past time for them to have stopped making Firstborn and begin to exclusively make Primaris.  I know Space Marines live a long time, but 200 years seems much too long for a pack of Bloodclaws who were formed shortly before the Great Rift to still be Bloodclaws after 200 years of heavy fighting (Grimnar was considered super old at 700 years).

IMHO we don't even need new models, we just need GW to rename all the Primaris options in the SW supplement.  Could be as simple as Primaris Bloodclaws and Primaris Grey Hunters.  

Final point on all this: like many, I was adamantly opposed to advancing the 40k timeline, and I personally thought the execution was not that great--way too much proverbial magic pixie dust.  There's a lot of 40k fans who did support advancing it and still do but then complain about how it went down, and I thought they were foolish for wanting to advance the timeline and foolish after for being surprised that they weren't 100% satisfied with the results.  But now that we've made the hard shift, I've embraced it.  My army is currently 100% Primaris with the exception of some Deathsworn I run as Wulfen.  I would really like the Primaris rules to reflect Space Wolves culture in the 41st millennium.  

[WrathOfTheLion]

For successors, focusing on why the SW 'couldn't' before and Cawl somehow solved it would be the most erroneous way to go about it. We know they could before, so that is just needless hand waving.

 

Rather, I prefer they focus on why the SW didn't make the choice to have successors, what is the reasons they didn't do so, not some bogus reasons on why they couldn't and now they can. That for whatever reason they made the decision not to, and now it being forced upon them from the outside is a much more believable approach.

 

I would like to see them put a better imprint upon the Primaris units. I don't really think it would be that hard, even simply allowing Wolf Guard Primaris leaders attached to the squad would make a big difference. I don't have much Primaris in my SW (1 or 2 squads), but that is simply because I have not gotten around to circling back to that yet.

[Closet Skeleton]

Its never been stated how long the Wolf Brothers existed for, they could very easily have survived for longer than any Ultima founding chapter has been active.

[Bulwyf]

If any of you are expecting anything beyond some version of Do It All Cawl "fixing" the gene seed then I don't know what to say. There's no records of any SW successors before the Ultima founding other than Wolf Brothers. From the fluff in the SW novels it doesn't seem that the Wolf Brothers lasted that long. 

 

So it is almost certainly going to be Do It All Cawl mechanism to explain why we suddenly have who only knows how many new SW chapters. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

It will definitely be a cawl mechanism that explains it, although books like The Great Work have made that less annoying.

There should be quite a few successors because Cawl made equal numbers of each the 9 first foundings and who knows what else. How many they cover in the supplement is something I'm curious about but I don't expect many.

[ORKILL]

 

I am dreading this supplement. Playing Wolves in 9th Ed is like going to Motorhead concert and seeing Nickleback on stage instead.

Care to elaborate why?

-------------------------------------
I am all for successors. The canis helix only working with fenrisians never made sense. Majority of the legion was terran and drank from the cup of wulfen as well, and didn't have adverse effects. It was lore that was put in place with little consideration of logistics or other lore. This also applies to "SW could only recruit from Fenris".

The issue is that SW are backed into a corner, only 12 companies on 1 low population planet. Then ignoring all but 2 or 3 companies and making 1 the poster boy. Finally they are now a singular theme of "wolfy", which disregards a portion of the player base that don't want that. Every other chapter does this, but has successors that can diverge just look at IF and BT.

Successors can only allow more people to enjoy what they want and be sons of Russ. I've even talked to a few of you and others SW players and know that they would leave this chapter if we didn't get successors. We can talk about what is fluffy and not, but there is a counter argument for each point. Fluff is liquid and can be changed with a few strokes of the pen. Wolf Brothers failed? Nope, 1ksons interfered. SW need canis helix? We can now generate more for successors. Etc.

 

Sure. 

1. The watering down of our command structure and troop units
2. Counting on one unit for a competitive edge leads to mono builds, just like the last few Editions
3. If I wanted to play codex marines, that is what I would do. I am not a fan of grey codex marines. 
4. I had high hopes for 8th Ed and it was an utter failure. The "Index" also disappointed. So, I am not optimistic.

 

[VIth]

If any of you are expecting anything beyond some version of Do It All Cawl "fixing" the gene seed then I don't know what to say. There's no records of any SW successors before the Ultima founding other than Wolf Brothers. From the fluff in the SW novels it doesn't seem that the Wolf Brothers lasted that long.

So it is almost certainly going to be Do It All Cawl mechanism to explain why we suddenly have who only knows how many new SW chapters.

As others and myself have said, there doesn’t even need to be an explanation as to *how* they can make successors: the fact that the original legion was entirely Terran demonstrates they could. It would be much better to take the “why” tact, which wouldn’t require Cawl to explain at all.

That said, they probably *will* use Cawl to explain *how* it’s all possible now when it really isn’t necessary. And regardless, at this point it’s all already written and physical copies of the now-printed books are being loaded into shipping containers, I imagine.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I would hope they just ignore the 'Cawl fixing stuff' thing and just say that they could have, but didn't for X reason. Now they're made and there, and they have to adapt. That they wouldn't have made successors for 10k years would still be silly, but definitely less stupid than the existing setup which doesn't make any sense.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 20 October 2020 - 07:18 PM.

[Dark Shepherd]

I hope/think theres a 45 chance that the supplement doesnt say oooh shazam all of a sudden theres successors, instead its replace successor from codex with great company or strike force

Everybody is happy then and all it would take is changing a couple of words. Depends how much individual thought they gave us

[WrathOfTheLion]

Except there are successors in existing literature from 8E, so they should address that.

 

This is important for any of these Ultima founding chapters for DA, BA and SW.

 

How is a SW successor organized? Do they act sort of as a great company? Are there multiple great companies, with differing insignia? Do BA successors have a Sanguinary Guard? And other questions for a DA ultima founding successor. Are they organized with their 2nd Company as a Ravenwing? Is the 1st Company Deathwing? How is this represented on the table, when there are no bike officer units for them?

 

All of these are questions I would hope would end up resolved, but they may wait further yet.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 20 October 2020 - 07:32 PM.

[jaxom]

I mean, let's get real: at this point it doesn't even make sense to have Firstborn Bloodclaws.  The timeline has advanced over 200 years so it's well past time for them to have stopped making Firstborn and begin to exclusively make Primaris.  I know Space Marines live a long time, but 200 years seems much too long for a pack of Bloodclaws who were formed shortly before the Great Rift to still be Bloodclaws after 200 years of heavy fighting (Grimnar was considered super old at 700 years).

IMHO we don't even need new models, we just need GW to rename all the Primaris options in the SW supplement.  Could be as simple as Primaris Bloodclaws and Primaris Grey Hunters.  

 

Yeah, it seems the alternative is to pull a Dark Angels, where the Wolves keep making Firstborn because they don't trust Primaris creation techniques to not include some weird Mechanicus loyalty override.

 

 

There should be quite a few successors because Cawl made equal numbers of each the 9 first foundings and who knows what else. How many they cover in the supplement is something I'm curious about but I don't expect many.

 

 

If any of you are expecting anything beyond some version of Do It All Cawl "fixing" the gene seed then I don't know what to say. There's no records of any SW successors before the Ultima founding other than Wolf Brothers. From the fluff in the SW novels it doesn't seem that the Wolf Brothers lasted that long.

So it is almost certainly going to be Do It All Cawl mechanism to explain why we suddenly have who only knows how many new SW chapters.

As others and myself have said, there doesn’t even need to be an explanation as to *how* they can make successors: the fact that the original legion was entirely Terran demonstrates they could. It would be much better to take the “why” tact, which wouldn’t require Cawl to explain at all.

 

I was more under the impression that the logistics of raising a new Chapter went beyond most Chapters so they required the resources of the High Lords; that Foundings were either carried out via Senate proclamation or at the request of a Chapter. I figured the Space Wolves aren't trusted by the Imperium's bureaucrats so they were never chosen to be the basis for new chapters when Foundings happened. 

 

Then Cawl produced a legion's worth of Space Wolf marines. Guilliman wouldn't waste that resource and would organize some into new Chapters.

 

Except there are successors in existing literature from 8E, so they should address that.

 

This is important for any of these Ultima founding chapters for DA, BA and SW.

 

How is a SW successor organized? Do they act sort of as a great company? Are there multiple great companies, with differing insignia? Do BA successors have a Sanguinary Guard? And other questions for a DA ultima founding successor. Are they organized with their 2nd Company as a Ravenwing? Is the 1st Company Deathwing? How is this represented on the table, when there are no bike officer units for them?

 

All of these are questions I would hope would end up resolved, but they may wait further yet.

^ This.

[VIth]

I would hope they just ignore the 'Cawl fixing stuff' thing and just say that they could have, but didn't for X reason. Now they're made and there, and they have to adapt. That they wouldn't have made successors for 10k years would still be silly, but definitely less stupid than the existing setup which doesn't make any sense.

I agree, and I think you could just say they're super insular and after the trauma of the Wolf Brothers failure they never wanted to try again (of course, they also hinted that Russ himself wanted to ring the Eye of Terror is Space Wolves successors, didn't they?  Or was that the Great Wolf in the novel...?)

[VIth]

 

Yeah, it seems the alternative is to pull a Dark Angels, where the Wolves keep making Firstborn because they don't trust Primaris creation techniques to not include some weird Mechanicus loyalty override.

 

I've not seen anywhere that Dark Angels were still intentionally making Firstborn because they don't trust the Primaris process... Is that in their codex or something?  Initially, the story was that they were wary of them, but now they have Primaris members of the Inner Circle (Captain Lazarus and the Deathwing Bladeguard Veterans): that seems to suggest they "trust them" now, and if not then they're have really screwed up the Dark Angels fluff regarding the Inner Circle, right?

[WrathOfTheLion]

I have seen nothing of the sort. The general distrust that goes away over time is really obviously just a mechanism to handle that there weren't bikes and all on 8E launch.

 

Really with how just cringeworthy the lore they've made on that is, just handwave that away please...

 

 

 

I would hope they just ignore the 'Cawl fixing stuff' thing and just say that they could have, but didn't for X reason. Now they're made and there, and they have to adapt. That they wouldn't have made successors for 10k years would still be silly, but definitely less stupid than the existing setup which doesn't make any sense.

I agree, and I think you could just say they're super insular and after the trauma of the Wolf Brothers failure they never wanted to try again (of course, they also hinted that Russ himself wanted to ring the Eye of Terror is Space Wolves successors, didn't they?  Or was that the Great Wolf in the novel...?)

 

 

Yeah, they could do something like that. It'd be kind of silly, but really they just need to let that part go I think. With how the HH lore, etc. is now set up, it's obviously nonsense that they can't have successors.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 20 October 2020 - 09:59 PM.

[jaxom]

 

 

Yeah, it seems the alternative is to pull a Dark Angels, where the Wolves keep making Firstborn because they don't trust Primaris creation techniques to not include some weird Mechanicus loyalty override.

 

I've not seen anywhere that Dark Angels were still intentionally making Firstborn because they don't trust the Primaris process... Is that in their codex or something?  Initially, the story was that they were wary of them, but now they have Primaris members of the Inner Circle (Captain Lazarus and the Deathwing Bladeguard Veterans): that seems to suggest they "trust them" now, and if not then they're have really screwed up the Dark Angels fluff regarding the Inner Circle, right?

 

 

Codex and War of Secrets. The Dark Angels didn't trust the Mechanicus team that was left with them to oversee the initial waves of implantation and conversion for Primaris marines whereas their own apothecaries could still make Firstborn without any interference from the Martian priests. 

[StrangerOrders]

Couple of things from the fluff.

1. Inferno goes through great lengths to explain how/why Fenris supported a Legion, it was literally built from the ground up to be an Astartes factory. From equipment to importing Deathworlders to interbreed with the locals to actively going out of their way to artificially create the Fenrisian mythos we know today. So saying that it is currently inexplicable is more due to personal preference than any grounding in the fluff.
   • By that same token, and while it would certainly be costly, there is nothing stopping the wolves from resettling tribes elsewhere.
2. Cawl doesnt iron out gene 'flaws', the books have made it clear that his 'fix' was ironing out issues that arose from corruption and degradation messing Gene-Seed up over millennia. Guilliman flat out says as much in Avenging Son, Cawl is supposedly obsessively respectful about maintaining the original specs of each Legion. So his Wolves are not even slightly going to be less Wolfy in terms of gene-features if GW listens to this.
3. Avenging Son has Guilliman specifically state that Cawl did not practice any preference with Primaris. He explicitly made equal numbers of Astartes from each Gene-Line. Said book also notes that his Primaris were the size of several GC-era Legions. So there is potentially tens if not hundreds of thousands of Wolves running about. ]
   • Granted nothing is really stopping the Wolves from abusing their influx of pure-stock geneseed and the fact that the Primaris we have seen from their line ARE culturally fenrisian to pull a DAngels with their successors. Just more Jarls at the table really.
4. Its really important to remember that the Heresy hit the Wolves like a truck, perhaps even Sally hard. Between Prospero, the Alphas and then that charge against Horus, the Legion was both mostly wiped out and in mostly void engagements they had to flee from. Gene-Seed recovery in those cases is more or less impossible, so they were in a horrible position to have a successor in terms of gene-stock anyway. 
5. The VIth legion originally had an atrocious success rate pre-Fenris (and the world was purposely sought out and a known entity in Dark Age maps) but that does not change that it was viable enough to supply a Legion if you accept horrid loss rates. Frankly, combined with the BBs making it clear that without a Primarch, gene-seed does degrade after successive generations and the fairly horrific attitude towards blood claws, and it is pretty far from impossible that the lack of Wolf Successors is partially self-inflicted.

• Its worth noting that the Rune-Priests interfere to keep Lukas alive in large part because the Wolves have lost control of their artificial social system to such a degree that initiate losses are bordering on untenable. So its pretty safe to assume that their rate of decay is likely to be far worse, so combine that with an ongoing degeneration and a lack of self-awareness from the Lords as to this problem and the lack of successor-success makes sense.

Edited by StrangerOrders, 20 October 2020 - 11:25 PM.

[Bryan Blaire]

And the High Lords aren't going to use gene seed from gene lines they think are just going to turn around and ignore them anyway - the Dark Angels gene-seed is as "pure" as the Ultramarine line is, but the High Lords just happen to have more Successors made of the one that falls in line with their wants more (coincidence? I think not). You stack in potential views of corruption based on the Wolves appearance and the like, as well as outright defiance of institutions like the Inquisition and you don't make for a good candidate to bother with - which I'm sure suits the Space Wolves just fine.

Also, folks are acting like all of the sudden Chapters who are couched in millennia of Chapter cult and tradition are going to immediately switch all of their aspirants over to the Primaris template - why would they?

You also add in that the Chapters both make their own equipment and get resupplied by Forge Worlds - not all Forge Worlds are likely to produce the Primaris equipment at the same rate, or at all - I sincerely doubt that all those mechanocultists are just going to up and abandon decamillennium plus years of belief to start slavishly producing exclusively MkX armor variants and Cawl-pattern armaments, the Chapters aren't going to be able to instantly equip all of their Marines with the same either. That's not even to discuss all the millennia of produced equipment they already have, relics that may not integrate properly with the MkX armor/belief that the machine spirits are rejecting the new armor type, difficulty in incorporating relic armor that a Marine Chapter may not want to give up into the new configurable armor type, etc.

Cultural shifts take a long time - look at Earth's own history (and us standard humans live a lot less time than a member of the Adeptus Astartes does).

Yes, Primaris may be considered better warriors than the standard Astartes template (even there, I personally question just how much more effective they really are), but better Warriors doesn't instantly erase tradition or grant manufacturing capabilities, so we get back to "Why would Chapters convert all their aspirants over to the Primaris template, even over a 200 year period?"

[VIth]

“Cultural shifts take a long time - look at Earth's own history (and us standard humans live a lot less time than a member of the Adeptus Astartes does).“

Hey, Danish Viking/Japanese Samurai/Mongol horseman/Roman Legionnaire/Cheyenne Dog Soldier/Aztec Jaguar Warrior/Scottish Highlander/French Old Guard/etc: here’s this new improved weapon and new improved armor that’s a better version of what you currently use and here’s instructions for your blacksmiths and craftsmen to make it on their own.
Elite warrior: no, that violates our traditions!

But to each their own. 🤷🏻‍♂️

WRT Primaris being better, I don’t understand what the possible argument could be that they aren’t. They’re stronger, more resilient, and have proven themselves to every chapter that’s received them (including those predisposed to be highly unfavorable to “outsiders” like Dark Angels). They have three extra organs, one of them adding additional strength and another organ that kicks in during near-death trauma. They’re simply superior to marines without those extra organs, if you ask me.

Edited by VIth, 21 October 2020 - 03:39 AM.

[Bulwyf]

I loathe the idea of Super Space Marines but in the lore and in the tabletop Primaris really are suped up Astartes that are flat out better than the Firstborn. I don't think the SW would really object to using them once they saw how effective they are. 

[Wispy]

the thing about primaris it doesn't violate their traditions

they can still deploy them as Grey Hunters, Blood Claws, Long Fangs like they used to

 

the composition and load out within the model kits lining up with that is another story... that the kits must be conformed too is the dissonance. 

Edited by Wispy, 21 October 2020 - 05:01 AM.

[Dark Shepherd]

For why are they still making firstborn 200 years later...last codex said they were deliberately doing so out of tradition

IIRC theres another source saying Wolves/any chapter still doing it to fulfill particular (battlefield) roles

[Bryan Blaire]

Hey, Danish Viking/Japanese Samurai/Mongol horseman/Roman Legionnaire/Cheyenne Dog Soldier/Aztec Jaguar Warrior/Scottish Highlander/French Old Guard/etc: here’s this new improved weapon and new improved armor that’s a better version of what you currently use and here’s instructions for your blacksmiths and craftsmen to make it on their own.
Elite warrior: no, that violates our traditions!
But to each their own.

Did you just try to make a point about culture change not taking a long time by naming a bunch of warrior cultures who changed over a long period of time (and thus ending) to something else, many of them by way of getting new weapons and the cultural influence from those that brought them?


Thank you for proving my point about why a multimillennial culture (something Earth still doesn't have) might not necessarily want to do that.

I'll come back to other points, but this one was too easy and really funny.

And if everyone is good with Primaris and doesn't think it changes traditions, everyone is good with just fielding them in the standard squads and there's no need for Space Wolf Chapter specific Primaris units, right? Right? There's no need for either to change, the Primaris fit in perfectly as is to the warrior culture of the Space Wolves and can be run as-is?