124 replies to this topic

[WrathOfTheLion]

For why are they still making firstborn 200 years later...last codex said they were deliberately doing so out of tradition

IIRC theres another source saying Wolves/any chapter still doing it to fulfill particular (battlefield) roles

Which is silly for battlefield roles. A Primaris that can deploy as an infiltrator, an intercessor or a walking tank in Gravis can't pick up a normal boltgun and a missile launcher?
 

Conversely, a normal marine can't pick up a Cawl pattern bolt rifle and decide the squad doesn't need a plasma gun? It makes no sense to me.

 

Hell, with the artificial restrictions on equipment, one might think the Primaris are a Tzeench plot to disenfranchise the imperium of all its Land Raiders 

 

Being silly of course, but pointing out the absurdity that all of the sudden millennia of equipment is 'unusable' and that somehow these tactically flexible squads can't figure out how to implement older squad formations.

Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 21 October 2020 - 01:00 PM.

[Bryan Blaire]

Which is silly for battlefield roles. A Primaris that can deploy as an infiltrator, an intercessor or a walking tank in Gravis can't pick up a normal boltgun and a missile launcher?

Conversely, a normal marine can't pick up a Cawl pattern bolt rifle and decide the squad doesn't need a plasma gun? It makes no sense to me.

Of course it's silly - the whole way this has been done is silly.

However, until we have official lore absolutely saying one way or the other, we either have to argue based on personal inference, which anyone can toss out as unofficial, or we have to argue based on official lore, which says "Primaris Space Wolves fight this way, standard Space Wolf Astartes fight this way". Its why we can toss out the idea that Primaris fighting a certain way doesn't violation tradition, because as currently written, it does. Primaris Space Wolves, as currently written, violate Space Wolf traditions and culture. Maybe that changes in a few short weeks, but for now, unless someone can pull up official lore that shows that there are Primaris Space Wolf Blood Claws or Primaris Space Wolf Grey Hunters, etc., then there aren't those things officially.

It doesn't matter what our personal inferences are, or how good those might be/how realistic they might be, it doesn't change what is officially written.

Maybe it will just be a minor cultural blip - Primaris Space Wolves only fought this way for 50 years or something - until all had assimilated into the Fenrisian based Space Wolf culture, but we can't say that's officially happened until it officially happens - even if it "makes sense," which I think it does - then it hasn't happened. GW could write something very different.

-------

Don't get me wrong - I like the Primaris models, and have considered simply making them larger scale standard Astartes - it wouldn't make them Primaris "whatever". I don't have a beef with all the Primaris lore, but I also don't love it - just like I don't have a beef with all of GW's lore as a whole for any faction or even the setting, but I also don't love it. I'm very much in favor of making anything yours, discard whatever GW stuff you need to or re-write it to make it fit your story - that still leaves it as just your story, like how my Drakeslayers are probably going to forever be unlike anyone else's and don't conform to GW's story about them.

[VIth]

 

And if everyone is good with Primaris and doesn't think it changes traditions, everyone I said good with just fielding them in the standard squads and there's no need for Space Wolf Chapter specific Primaris units, right? Right? There's no need for either to change, the Primaris fit in perfectly as is to the warrior culture of the Space Wolves and can be run as-is?

 

Agree to disagree.  And think of how much warfare changed over a 200 year period for each of those cultures.  My point was simple: none of what was introduced to them would be fundamentally new or different to what they're accustomed to.  Bolt Rifle is a modified Bolter, Mk X armor is modified Mk VII or Mk VIII (or any other the earlier marks in the armory), Primaris creation process is identical to the old process but now add these three organs in this sequence.  And the notion that showing up and offering a Viking or even a culturally conservative Samurai a better/stronger version of their longsword/katana and better/strong version of their armor and explaining to their blacksmiths how to replicate it would be rejected just doesn't pass the smell test to me.  But again, agree to disagree.  Cheers.

[VIth]

For why are they still making firstborn 200 years later...last codex said they were deliberately doing so out of tradition

IIRC theres another source saying Wolves/any chapter still doing it to fulfill particular (battlefield) roles

Where did it say that in the codex?  I was looking and can't find anything on that other than Grimnar's gathering to discuss Primaris.  All that said was that some of the jarls didn't like them but Grimnar ultimately told everyone to suck it up because the chapter needed the reinforcements.  

Edited by VIth, 21 October 2020 - 01:27 PM.

[Bryan Blaire]

VIth, you do see how it's not just handing over a weapon, right?

There wasn't a handing over of thousands upon thousands of Suits of empty armor, etc. Power armor isn't made overnight, so it isn't like the Space Wolves could just "flip the switch" and convert over to producing Primaris and Primaris equipment exclusively. We don't actually know how quickly it takes a master artisan to make a suit of power armor - we could speculate until the cows come home - what we do know is that it isn't an assembly line production, even on a Forge World - that's well established in the lore. Just the armor itself is a rate limiting factor on how many Primaris should even be produced - what's the point in making a hundred aspirants a year into Primaris (being extremely generous on the rate they could even do that) if you can only arm and armor five of them?

To put it in more real world terms, what happened was more like the British rolled up and dropped off 100 trained knights with all their arms and armor to Scandinavia and said "Here's plans for making these arms and armor, along with a couple of our British compatriots to teach you how to raise British knights, and a few extra swords and suits of armor" and then left.

They didn't leave extra hands to make said armor - they didn't even leave them how to make any new steel or other items they might need to make the armor work. They didn't tell these random Scandinavians whether the nearby armories were willing to make more suits of armor or weapons (because those guys don't necessarily take instructions well).

They didn't tell the grumbly Scandinavian priests how to incorporate their old blessings into the new armor - so there's a possibility that the new armor won't even work right when someone tries to put it on - or that the machine spirit will recognize and identify the armor as part of a unit properly, making it less effective.

It's not as simple as just handing over some swords or suits of armor.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

For why are they still making firstborn 200 years later...last codex said they were deliberately doing so out of tradition

IIRC theres another source saying Wolves/any chapter still doing it to fulfill particular (battlefield) roles

Where did it say that in the codex? I was looking and can't find anything on that other than Grimnar's gathering to discuss Primaris. All that said was that some of the jarls didn't like them but Grimnar ultimately told everyone to suck it up because the chapter needed the reinforcements.

There was an article in WD that covered a fair amount of the primaris stuff and how they fit in. I have it at home when I'm done with work I'll put up quick summary.

[Bryan Blaire]

Pg. 21: "All of a Great Company's fiery-tempered and often reckless warriors fight in claw packs ... These commonly fight as Blood Claws or Incursors, Swiftclaws or Inceptors, or in similarly aggressive roles. Once their Wolf Lord is satisfied that they have been sufficiently blooded ... they become a hunter pack ... Wolf Lord may direct them to fight as adaptable Grey Hunters or Intercessors, Suppressors or the skilled crew of swift anti-grab vehicles. When a pack has survived countless campaigns ... they form a fang pack ... [they] wield the fury of destructive ranged weaponry as Long Fangs, Aggressors or Hellblasters.


Pg. 23: PRIMARIS FENRYKA
"Like many Chapters, the Space Wolves did not adopt the creation of Primaris battle-brothers exclusively. For some of Fenris, this was out of political mistrust, either of Guilliman and the High Lords or of Cawl and the Adeptus Mechanicus. For many it was practicality and tradition; there were a great many aspirants already undergoing the established arcane processes of gene-augmentation. Who, some asked, had the right to demand the Space Wolves abandon long-trusted practices?
...
Pg. 24 "The presence of Fenrisian-born Space Marines created through the Primaris technology has smoothed the final misgivings any in the Chapter harbored for Guilliman's gift. The organic and adaptable organization of the Space Wolves has made the advancement of those Space Marines and the integration of new combat roles far swifter than among some other Chapters. Sagas await each of them and, after a lifetime slaughtering Mankind's enemies, so too does a warrior's death worthy of true sons of Russ."

So no, they don't generate Primaris exclusively.

Yes, they do have political and tradition-based opposition to the Primaris, and while the initial gift of Primaris has smoothed over, it doesn't specifically say that those elements have fully ended.

However, they have adopted the different Primaris structures into the Space Wolves organization (cultural change).

GW may overwrite any and all of this in the upcoming Supplement, we have no way to know, but this is the latest official lore from March 2020 alongside that in Saga of the Beast.

[Karhedron]

I mean, let's get real: at this point it doesn't even make sense to have Firstborn Bloodclaws.  The timeline has advanced over 200 years so it's well past time for them to have stpped making Firstborn and begin to exclusively make Primaris.  I know Space Marines live a long time, but 200 years seems much too long for a pack of Bloodclaws who were formed shortly before the Great Rift to still be Bloodclaws after 200 years of heavy fighting (Grimnar was considered super old at 700 years).

I am pretty sure most established chapters are still creating Firstborn Marines alongside Primaris. Remember these guys venerate the geneseed as holy because it is a living link to their Primarchs. They are not going to throw it all out with the rubbish just because some Martian priest has delivered a fresh batch. There will continue to be fresh packs of Blood Claws created at the same time as Primaris marines. Guilliman makes it clear he sees Primaris as the future but in practice it is the Chapter Masters who will be making these decisions and many of them will be Firstborn themselves.

My headcannon is that most (if not all) pre-existing Chapters will be creating both lines of Marines in parallel until GW issues something in the fluff to say otherwise. How they choose which aspirant gets which set of implants is another matter.

[VIth]

So no, they don't generate Primaris exclusively.

Yes, they do have political and tradition-based opposition to the Primaris, and while the initial gift of Primaris has smoothed over, it doesn't specifically say that those elements have fully ended.

However, they have adopted the different Primaris structures into the Space Wolves organization (cultural change).

GW may overwrite any and all of this in the upcoming Supplement, we have no way to know, but this is the latest official lore from March 2020 alongside that in Saga of the Beast.

 

Respectfully, the plain reading of the quotes you shared provide zero evidence they're still creating Firstborn and, on the contrary, suggests that despite lots of initial and even current misgivings the shift to Primaris marines is now moving forward apace (though not necessarily exclusively).  I own the WD folks are citing, and I didn't walk away from that thinking they're still cranking out Blood Claws, who are less strong and less resilient than Primaris marines.

"Who, some asked, had the right to demand the Space Wolves abandon long-trusted practices?" BUT "The presence of Fenrisian-born Space Marines created through the Primaris technology has smoothed the final misgivings any in the Chapter harbored for Guilliman's gift. The organic and adaptable organization of the Space Wolves has made the advancement of those Space Marines and the integration of new combat roles far swifter than among some other Chapters."

 

What the passage you shared states explicitly that the Space Wolves are actually more open to the Primaris integration than other chapters. Again, it is unfathomable to me as a history enthusiast, U.S. Marine, and current defense industry employee that a warrior brotherhood would not embrace a new-and-improved weapon system.  It's one thing for a Samurai to hard shift from a katana to an AK-47; it's another to introduce him to an improved katana. 

The one reason I can be swayed to accept that they're still creating Firstborn is if Primaris marines can only be created using Primaris gene-seed specifically.  That may actually be the case (I'd have to go back and look), and if it is I can buy the lack of Primaris gene-seed supply.  But I don't believe that's true because current Firstborns can transition to Primaris.  

Anyway, I suspect no one's mind will be changed.  That's all I've got.  Take care!

[Bryan Blaire]

The first sentence of page 23 is the citation that they aren't creating Primaris exclusively. The statements from page 24 don't modify that statement, you are inferring that they do from your reading of it.

Also, our real world history and current situation don't have anything like the multi-millennial warrior cultures of the Space Marines in them - we can't actually just apply our understanding as veterans of a secular military (former soldier here) that has existed for a fiftieth of the time of Space Marine legion to what the Marines would do. To me it's actually a misunderstanding of the situation to even try to assume parity. We all have to actually try and step outside our own understandings of things and try to get into the mindset of these very different folks to try and actually understand motivations (and even then, I think we'd still have a hard time, because I personally don't feel like the Marines would be near as human as even the lore accounts GW BL writes makes them out to be).

It's not just a weapon, or not just armor, to these guys - these items have their own spirits - they say prayers over and to this stuff. They are deeply indoctrinated and highly religious/cultish. Even their own bodies - they have beliefs about them, and even though additional modifications may be more effective, efficient, etc., they are going to have very strong roots on that stuff - it's been smoothed over - that doesn't mean issues are gone.

[VIth]

The first sentence of page 23 is the citation that they aren't creating Primaris exclusively. The statements from page 24 don't modify that statement, you are inferring that they do from your reading of it.

Ha. You're right.  I stand corrected.  I had read the follow-on paragraph as amending that statement, but upon re-reading the way it's phrased I think precludes that.  So I believe everyone saying they're still making Blood Claws are right.

And I disagree on warrior cultures: human nature doesn't change, in my opinion.  What you see is what you get.

[StrangerOrders]

Few bits of lore relating to Wolves and their relating to conservatism of wargear and factors around how they deal with new stuff. Fairly ambivalent myself but I think its fun to point out.

 

1.  Inferno notes that the Wolves were extremely fond of keeping old wargear around, with notes being made of their ample use of MKII by the Heresy. This is noteworthy because it is noted that their position and favor with the Emp actually made them really hard for Horus to undercut as far as wargear. They had ready access to MKIV and were among the first to receive large stocks of Tartaros but still seemed to prefer their old armor (MKIII and Cataphractii especially).
2. The Fang is noted to have been designed to readily generate enough supplies and wargear to supply a Legion, Inferno notes that the Wolves were really only unable to fabricate complex vehicles and anything bigger than a shuttle. So they are actually in a fairly unique position in terms of the means and ability to fabricate wargear (explains why Bloodclaws are furnished with full armor despite their death rates).
3. Despite this, point one holds in that the Wolves are loathe to replace anything that hasnt been actively destroyed. This instinct is strong enough that they still have vaults with pre-Russ vintage suits of armor in pristine condition in 40k (see Lukas novel).
4. The Fang is largely abandoned and has been attacked quite a bit, its fabrication abilities in 40k are a mystery but we can at least know what it was capable of at its height.
5. We dont actually know how much the Wolves are able to overhaul their production abilities, it introduces a big question here. If they could update their production to fit Cawl's stuff, it presents a very different situation than a chapter who has a uniquely huge production capacity but cannot update it. In the former case something like Primaris blood claws makes sense, in the latter it basically means knee-capping their own production ability and creating an unsustainable loss of wargear with Primaris Bloodclaws.

Just some fun notes to bring to the conversation!

Edited by StrangerOrders, 21 October 2020 - 07:39 PM.

[Dark Shepherd]

Nice work. The returned 13th company were also all equipped with oversized relic weapons; Im still salty we never got sword wielding Wulfen

[Bulwyf]

I'm guessing we will see the supplement list various Primaris troops as "count as" Blood Claws, Grey Hunters etc. without actually changing their datasheet. 

[UtariOnzo]

Just to enhance the point Bryan made, many clan leaders and old hat samurai in the period leading up to, and during the early years of, the Boshin War outright rejected modern firearms in favour of home made japanese ones, despite them being copies of 200+ year old musket technology and various foreign nations banging on the door to supply new guns by the crate.

Change is slow, and often bloody in our history, and given just how insular and divergent Space Wolf culture is in particular I can see it being a prime example of a chapter taking its time to transition. They have treaties and suppliers, but not to the extent the Ultras and many of their successors can access.

Edit: woops seems I missed a page or two before adding in on the convo, mods feel free to delete

Edited by UtariOnzo, 21 October 2020 - 11:11 PM.

[WrathOfTheLion]

I think it's a succinct response to a point, so shouldn't be deleted.

 

Bryan and many others have made such a point and it is valid and I agree with them, but I think a succinct declaration is a valuable addition.

[jaxom]

 

Pg. 21: "All of a Great Company's fiery-tempered and often reckless warriors fight in claw packs ... These commonly fight as Blood Claws or Incursors, Swiftclaws or Inceptors, or in similarly aggressive roles. Once their Wolf Lord is satisfied that they have been sufficiently blooded ... they become a hunter pack ... Wolf Lord may direct them to fight as adaptable Grey Hunters or Intercessors, Suppressors or the skilled crew of swift anti-grab vehicles. When a pack has survived countless campaigns ... they form a fang pack ... [they] wield the fury of destructive ranged weaponry as Long Fangs, Aggressors or Hellblasters.

 

 

Interesting. Seems like the idea was the Wolves transition through are Claw Packs, Hunter Packs, and Fang Packs instead of through the Blood Claws, Grey Hunters, and Long Fangs (which are now tactical designations for how the pack is armed).

[VIth]

Nice work. The returned 13th company were also all equipped with oversized relic weapons; Im still salty we never got sword wielding Wulfen

I’m still salty they weren’t in normal-sized in Mk III armor

Edited by VIth, 22 October 2020 - 03:38 AM.

[VIth]

You know what warrior cultures don’t survive 10,000 years? The ones that don’t use improved versions of their preferred gear.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Isn't just improved gear - that isn't the problem. It goes down much further, such as that things like blood claws can have wolf guard leaders, but assault intercessor packs cannot.

 

There's a fundamental organizational change that they may or may not address, but as it stands the Primaris packs play essentially like the codex chapters.

 

As a warrior culture, the SW should be taking the primaris and their wargear and adapting it to their use. We don't see any other direction where they make their imprint back on these squads and formations to get something unique.

[VIth]

Isn't just improved gear - that isn't the problem. It goes down much further, such as that things like blood claws can have wolf guard leaders, but assault intercessor packs cannot.

There's a fundamental organizational change that they may or may not address, but as it stands the Primaris packs play essentially like the codex chapters.

As a warrior culture, the SW should be taking the primaris and their wargear and adapting it to their use. We don't see any other direction where they make their imprint back on these squads and formations to get something unique.

I agree 100%.

As far as innovation, it was Space Wolves Long Fangs who bolted their Lascannons onto a Predator and introduced the Milky Way to the Predator Annihilator variant. They modified a holy machine in the field, but wouldn’t stoop to using Bolt Rifles and Mk X power armor? Interesting...😉

Edited by VIth, 22 October 2020 - 03:51 AM.

[jaxom]

Isn't just improved gear - that isn't the problem. It goes down much further, such as that things like blood claws can have wolf guard leaders, but assault intercessor packs cannot.

 

There's a fundamental organizational change that they may or may not address, but as it stands the Primaris packs play essentially like the codex chapters.

 

As a warrior culture, the SW should be taking the primaris and their wargear and adapting it to their use. We don't see any other direction where they make their imprint back on these squads and formations to get something unique.

 

On the rules side, it's pretty clear the SW supplement is not going to have special variant units for Primaris (I'm basing this on the exception list from the Codex and the Lt weapon options). The lore in the supplement may, however, say Primaris sergeants in Claw Packs are members of a Great Company's Wolf Guard.

[WrathOfTheLion]

Or allow them to attach a WG vet intercessor, like how Deathwatch squads work.

[Bryan Blaire]

You know what warrior cultures don’t survive 10,000 years? The ones that don’t use improved versions of their preferred gear.

Everyone should say the same of the members of a cult of technology - except that's a foundational basis of the game setting, and it has been for almost three decades now. What Cawl has done is very close to, if not crossing, the line on tech-heresy after all. Consider the combination of words there.

No one I know of tries to make the argument that 40K makes sense from our perspective, simply what it is and remains with internal consistency (mostly)...

[Gherrick]

If GW really wants to have primaris properly integrated into the SW mindset, then the "blood claw" and "grey hunter" designated primaris units should have a "Wolf Guard pack leader" option added. Sure, it should be another primaris model, but without that option, they really are just shoehorned units that aren't actually in cohesion with the rest of the first born army. I'd rather they simply add a global rule about adding a WGPL to non-WG units instead of adding it to each of the individual data sheets.