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Supplement, Successors, and Special Units


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#76
Bryan Blaire

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Maybe once they've sold us a decade's worth of Primaris releases...

Honestly, I'm not anticipating a lot of "Primaris conforming to the Wolves' structure" with the upcoming Supplement. I'd like to see some about any potential Successor structure, but I'm thinking that's pretty much "normal Primaris Chapter" painted some shade of grey or blue.

I'm personally hoping for one about mid-Edition (which will hopefully last longer than 3.5 or so years) that provides a bit more Wolf-flavor to the Primaris Space Wolves without pulling a Ned Flanders "wolf" edition again.

Overall I will still likely hold some disdain for all of GW's fluff, and continue with my own of a Great Company being more like a Chapter in its own right, with Grimnar sitting atop more of a demi-Legion than a "Chapter, but a bit bigger."
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#77
Triszin

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imho, soonest any chapter specific primaris kits release is 10th ed


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banana

#78
Dark Shepherd

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A slight downer for expectations is Simon Grant said before that Primaris already have a wolf guard pack leader in effect going by the stat lines. Could be nothing, could be an insight into their thinking

Hopefully they make the exception now that Bladeguard have arrived, but odds are against us

Edited by Dark Shepherd, 22 October 2020 - 01:03 PM.


#79
WrathOfTheLion

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My tinfoil hat opinion was that they planned on more substantially changing the universe, such as done for another game system, then decided against it.

 

Thus, they didn't really put a whole lot of consideration at the beginning as to how they integrate the new units or where they go, as they originally didn't plan for some of these factions to still exist at all.

 

So now, they're sort of just making it up as they go. It does seem like they are much more refined with it in 9E though, so we'll have to see how the supplement turns out. We can see certain other decisions made, such as that BGV are not Sanguinary Guard for BA, bikes and speeders are still Ravenwing for DA, etc., so it does look like they've put a bit more thought for those and perhaps will have for SW as well.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 22 October 2020 - 01:26 PM.

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#80
Jorin Helm-splitter

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imho, soonest any chapter specific primaris kits release is 10th ed


For us I agree but I could see them updating some of the supplements and with a new kit (probably a character but you never know) during this edition.

I'm hoping we get a primaris wolf guard unit that allows us to mix and match existing primaris kits to make custom squads. Though they may want that to be solely a deathwatch thing.

#81
WrathOfTheLion

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imho, soonest any chapter specific primaris kits release is 10th ed

As far as actual kits? I definitely agree not right now. I could see them plugging a few holes though, such as adding some Captain/LT on bike for Ravenwing, some characters, etc.

 

Much of the firstborn range for SW in particular is quite new. There are 4 (5 if you count Bjorn) SW characters in plastic, Ulrik, Krom, Ragnar and Logan Grimnar, which is more than even the Ultramarines with Guilliman, Tigurius and Calgar. So I could definitely see them focusing in particular on the BA and DA which only have one plastic character each (Mephiston and Lazarus).
 

BA in particular basically have a single kit for a minimum viable representation, the Sanguinary Guard, which seems like the likely candidate for them to do first when they get around to it.


Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 22 October 2020 - 02:32 PM.


#82
Jorin Helm-splitter

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Yeah I think DA will be getting a release to up that character count. It always seems like there is a boxset in late January early February and I could see the imperial fraction being DA with a new character to tie in with their codex supplement.

#83
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If you look at the entry for Lazarus, it is the only one of the new SM character kits marked as 'Online Only', and has been marked as such since basically the month after release. That always struck me as an odd indicator.

 

As far as the answers to some of these questions though and more on topic, unfortunately there won't be any prior evidence for us to examine for SW. The Deathwatch book is likely coming first, and it will basically be inconclusive, so we'll have to wait until the SW book. The BA/DA will be able to make educated guesses on how the SW book is handled, but no ability to do that here.



#84
VIth

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A slight downer for expectations is Simon Grant said before that Primaris already have a wolf guard pack leader in effect going by the stat lines. Could be nothing, could be an insight into their thinking

Hopefully they make the exception now that Bladeguard have arrived, but odds are against us

One of the things that I enjoyed was the introduction (in recent editions?) of having a pack leader baked into each pack/squad with the additional option of adding or replacing a WGPL as well.  This gave us two mini-beatsticks who could take a good melee weapon.  Adding this option back in would be awesome and very fluffy/unique.


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#85
Firnwulf

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imho, soonest any chapter specific primaris kits release is 10th ed

As far as actual kits? I definitely agree not right now. I could see them plugging a few holes though, such as adding some Captain/LT on bike for Ravenwing, some characters, etc.

 

Much of the firstborn range for SW in particular is quite new. There are 4 (5 if you count Bjorn) SW characters in plastic, Ulrik, Krom, Ragnar and Logan Grimnar, which is more than even the Ultramarines with Guilliman, Tigurius and Calgar. So I could definitely see them focusing in particular on the BA and DA which only have one plastic character each (Mephiston and Lazarus).
 

BA in particular basically have a single kit for a minimum viable representation, the Sanguinary Guard, which seems like the likely candidate for them to do first when they get around to it.

 

BA has also their special tactical troop (with heavy flamer) and termis.

And one could argue, that the bloodclaws/grey hunter/wolfsgard combikit and also the wg-termis are quite old. But than you are still left with TWC and shiney new (as far as firstborn goes) Wulfen.

i *want* to think that BVG is the one unit you could easily build in chapter specific kits.

 

Sadjy the harsh reality is, that primaris are getting current quite a lot (like tons of tons!) of new stuff and once the regular, standard, none-chapter-specific army in all her roles is filled (like probably after 01/2021 or after they throw in some primaris flyer or jumppack-CC-unit...) other fractions should come first.

That leaves to hope, that with the 10th edition maybe some chapter specific primaris unit-kits (and not just single, monopose minis) will come along.



#86
Triszin

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wulfen represent both old and primaris marines. they were retooled to be in primaris scale before primaris launched.


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#87
Wolfrage23

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I’d love to be able to add WG to intercessors but we all know that’s never going to happen. Basically isn’t the intercessors Sargent the same as a wolf guard stat wise??

Edited by Wolfrage23, 22 October 2020 - 05:17 PM.


#88
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What about a return to 3rd edition rules where all of your Wolf Guard count as 1 big unit and you can assign individuals as Pack leaders as needed?
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#89
Rune Priest Jbickb

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What about a return to 3rd edition rules where all of your Wolf Guard count as 1 big unit and you can assign individuals as Pack leaders as needed?


And 5th!

I loved that so much. That would be rockin!
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#90
Firnwulf

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just paint the sarge's right pauldron in black and gold.

Rules change more often than the colors once the mini is finished.



#91
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Worth noting that while the BA Tactical squad is technically only unique in its flamer access, its one of the nicest and blingiest of the chapter-specific kits and drips with character.

 

Saying they only have SG is a bit unfair.

 

My biggest dream is for us to get something like a Grey Hunter/Blood Claw box but Primaris-sized. Thats honestly all I really need, TWC are some of my favorite-looking models but a Primaris-scaled Thunderwolf would likely be able to use a rhino as a chewtoy and would be a horribly problematic model (I would still buy at least nine, but that isnt the point), so that will never happen.

 

I think as far as this edition we will likely not get anything, probably a repackaged Ragnar or that SW Battle-Leader but nothing else. Given the tight timeframe and the fact they are so clogged with Primaris things they've shown but are trying to drip-feed to us? Its a really hard sell that we will get anything new.

 

The BA might get a new character, since they cant take an already existing model and pretend its new with them but I doubt they'll get anything else.

 

The DA are in for something big I sense, given how far they are pushed back.

 

As far as new Wolves fluff? The sky is the limit here and I for one am grateful given their recent pattern of getting kicked in the teeth (I dont tend to count Ghaz after losing most of their fleet, system and assets as much of a win). 

 

We know Guilliman explicitly wants to break away from the UM majority, we know that Cawl made as many Primaris Wolves as he made of any other bloodline. And we know he made alot of Primaris.

 

So Wolf Successors are going to be numerous if we are lucky and I don't think Guilliman would be necessarily averse to giving the SWs alot of marines for their own Chapter. DI mentions that by Ultima a firm majority of the SW Primaris in the Primus fleet at least had been restored to Fenris, thats easily a several thousand Astartes force. Whether GW honors that or ignores BL is uncertain but this could potentially mean that the Fang might be at its highest occupancy in 10k years!biggrin.png


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#92
TheUnlikelyGamer84

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Sigh. Nvm.

Edited by TheUnlikelyGamer84, 22 October 2020 - 08:16 PM.


#93
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Absolutely, those kits are great, and I think we should see more things like that. What I meant was that was something they need to have at a 'minimum' to express the Blood Angels. They can make Death Company a paint job on tactical marines or intercessors, etc. But that's the thing they can't really get away with not having a separate kit for and still be BA.


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#94
StrangerOrders

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Absolutely, those kits are great, and I think we should see more things like that. What I meant was that was something they need to have at a 'minimum' to express the Blood Angels. They can make Death Company a paint job on tactical marines or intercessors, etc. But that's the thing they can't really get away with not having a separate kit for and still be BA.

Were I a more cynical man, I would suspect they will just exploit the whole 'SG from all 20ish chapters present were wiped out to a literal man' thing from the Tyranid attack on Baal. Anyone know if any of their more recent books or the last Ed's Dex mentions whether they rebuilt the SG?

 

I think Primaris SG would be pretty cool ngl though. 

 

I genuinely dont think that the most divergent chapters need that many kits really. But I think they do 'need' at least 2-3 each. One for proper 'custom' Intercessors and then 1-2 Unique units. That doesnt feel like a big ask and I frankly get more sense of being fluffy from my two dozen-ish boxes of Grey Hunters over the years (alot of that being conversion fuel) than I do from having unique 12 HQs. I might be the odd one out though.

 

Complained about this elsewhere but my biggest gripe atm with the Primaris is their release logic. They seem to be fixated on creating like 8 kits that fulfil the same role instead of just filling the major niches and then releasing unique options for the nine bloodlines. This is extra funny because they are so fixated on overfilling niches with options that they do so while entirely neglecting other niches. Heck, that way the chapters get to feel more flavorful, their unique units have less competition on the roster and it doesnt cut into xenos releases.

 

ymmv though.


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#95
Gherrick

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I would love for GW to just release another upgrade sprue with front chest pieces more specialized to SW/DA/BA.


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#96
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That would be a good start. The current upgrade sprue is complete nonsense, and is almost entirely useless if you don't play Ragnar Blackmane's great company.


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#97
VIth

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Complained about this elsewhere but my biggest gripe atm with the Primaris is their release logic. They seem to be fixated on creating like 8 kits that fulfil the same role instead of just filling the major niches and then releasing unique options for the nine bloodlines. This is extra funny because they are so fixated on overfilling niches with options that they do so while entirely neglecting other niches. Heck, that way the chapters get to feel more flavorful, their unique units have less competition on the roster and it doesnt cut into xenos releases.

 

 

 

Oh man, exactly this.  The convoluted Space Marine Troops roster is a testament to GW's philosophy of creating the model first then backwards planning from there.  Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers have overlapping abilities/redundancies that don't make sense, and that's before getting into Heavy Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Eradicators for fire support.  I honestly can't figure out why they just didn't follow the old model and make Primaris versions of a Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Scout Squad, Terminator Squad. They kinda have that, but then split them up and spread-loaded their abilities/equipment.  Just weird.


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#98
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That would be pretty doable imo for at the very least the Tacitus armored units given the Sprues. Since those do have separate and what looks like uniform breastplates.

 

Doesnt look like it would fly with the Vanguard or Gravis stuff though, those have variable waists and in alot of cases have them melded into posing knees. 

 

Still, I'd take that since Tacitus is my favorite looking and it is the baseline form of Mark X.

 

I'm just going by the pics of the sprues though, all the non-character stuff I have for Primaris so far was either Indomitus or DI.

 

 

 

 

Complained about this elsewhere but my biggest gripe atm with the Primaris is their release logic. They seem to be fixated on creating like 8 kits that fulfil the same role instead of just filling the major niches and then releasing unique options for the nine bloodlines. This is extra funny because they are so fixated on overfilling niches with options that they do so while entirely neglecting other niches. Heck, that way the chapters get to feel more flavorful, their unique units have less competition on the roster and it doesnt cut into xenos releases.

 

 

 

Oh man, exactly this.  The convoluted Space Marine Troops roster is a testament to GW's philosophy of creating the model first then backwards planning from there.  Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers have overlapping abilities/redundancies that don't make sense, and that's before getting into Heavy Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Eradicators for fire support.  I honestly can't figure out why they just didn't follow the old model and make Primaris versions of a Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Scout Squad, Terminator Squad. They kinda have that, but then split them up and spread-loaded their abilities/equipment.  Just weird.

 

Agreed, I love the look of Heavy Intercessors but my first thought was 'THIS could have been the Iron Hands special unit with a bit of tweaks'.

 

It would have even made sense, given the IH culture of the strongest companies hogging the best tech and the legacy of their time as a Legion. 

 

The Avernii of old reborn as it were, taking away the bulk every other company's Gravis to put it on even their Intercessors.

 

Instead there are now a befuddling number of Troop choices, which feels a bit clumsier than the old 'certain chapters/formations can make this unit a Troop Choice' style. 


Edited by StrangerOrders, 22 October 2020 - 09:30 PM.

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#99
Karhedron

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Were I a more cynical man, I would suspect they will just exploit the whole 'SG from all 20ish chapters present were wiped out to a literal man' thing from the Tyranid attack on Baal. Anyone know if any of their more recent books or the last Ed's Dex mentions whether they rebuilt the SG?


There was a short piece online about a year ago, I think it was a tie-in for Blood of Baal. It featured some Sanguinary Guard post-Devastation so the implication was they had started rebuilding them. I will try and track it down.

Here we go. https://www.warhamme...ening-sanguine/

Edited by Karhedron, 22 October 2020 - 09:40 PM.

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Sanguinius stood up, stretching his wings to their full extent. He flexed his hands. "I need no blade".
It was as though Sanguinius gleamed with pale light, his face white, eyes becoming blood-red, surrounded by the golden crown of flowing hair. Guilliman had witnessed glimpses of of his brother's wrath before, but had never seen the true Blood Angel unleashed. Sanguinius surged forward on alabaster wings, half a meter from the floor, whiteness streaming from him like flames.

#100
jaxom

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A slight downer for expectations is Simon Grant said before that Primaris already have a wolf guard pack leader in effect going by the stat lines. Could be nothing, could be an insight into their thinking

Hopefully they make the exception now that Bladeguard have arrived, but odds are against us

One of the things that I enjoyed was the introduction (in recent editions?) of having a pack leader baked into each pack/squad with the additional option of adding or replacing a WGPL as well.  This gave us two mini-beatsticks who could take a good melee weapon.  Adding this option back in would be awesome and very fluffy/unique.

 

 

I’d love to be able to add WG to intercessors but we all know that’s never going to happen. Basically isn’t the intercessors Sargent the same as a wolf guard stat wise??

 

Right, all the marines used to have built-in squad leaders with the same stats, but different weapons. Codex chapters could upgrade the Sergeant to a Veteran Sergeant (one who had served in the 1st Company and got +1 Ld; can't remember if Terminator Honours. +1 A, was baked in or another upgrade). Space Wolves don't have a 1st Company so instead had the Wolf Guard rules for adding them into squads. Now all Sergeants are Veteran Sergeants so a Space Wolf Intercessor Sergeant ought to be Wolf Guard. I'm guessing if you asked a GW designer about the latter they'd point you towards Lieutenants ("They've got the Wolf Guard keyword!") as the extra beat stick to place with your squad.

 

 

 

Complained about this elsewhere but my biggest gripe atm with the Primaris is their release logic. They seem to be fixated on creating like 8 kits that fulfil the same role instead of just filling the major niches and then releasing unique options for the nine bloodlines. This is extra funny because they are so fixated on overfilling niches with options that they do so while entirely neglecting other niches. Heck, that way the chapters get to feel more flavorful, their unique units have less competition on the roster and it doesnt cut into xenos releases.

 

 

 

Oh man, exactly this.  The convoluted Space Marine Troops roster is a testament to GW's philosophy of creating the model first then backwards planning from there.  Infiltrators, Incursors, and Reivers have overlapping abilities/redundancies that don't make sense, and that's before getting into Heavy Intercessors, Hellblasters, and Eradicators for fire support.  I honestly can't figure out why they just didn't follow the old model and make Primaris versions of a Tactical Squad, Assault Squad, Devastator Squad, Scout Squad, Terminator Squad. They kinda have that, but then split them up and spread-loaded their abilities/equipment.  Just weird.

 

 

 Perhaps it wouldn't rankle as much if it were just Infiltrators, but with two different weapon/equipment options for the squad. From the perspective of Scout replacement:

Bolter- Infiltrators

Bolt Pistol and Combat Knife - Incursors or Reivers

Sniper Rifles - Eliminators

 

I think the problem is that the game doesn't have the right scale for some of the ideas they had. Incursors are effectively anti-infiltrators, the ekdromoi of Greek antiquity whose role was to attempt to engage peltasts (light, ranged skirmishers) in melee; the Infiltrators are the peltasts. A skirmish game with higher levels of complexity for cover, aiming, engaging and disengaging would be needed to differentiate the two on the tabletop.


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