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What's the most grim dark of CSM?

Chaos Space Marines Heretic Astartes Chaos

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#1
Reskin

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I want to start a small Incursion size army of CSM, the complete opposite of my Grey Knights, shiny, noble, embodiment of the holy God Emperor of Mankind; in all their splendid silver and gold. (does that get your blood burning you filthy heretics?) msn-wink.gif To basically play with and introduce friends to the hobby.

 

What do you think is the most grim dark looking of the heretic Astartes? And regardless of Legion, what colours do you think scream grim dark?

I want some ideas for colour schemes, and some unit suggestions, and I honestly have no idea where to start. Seeing as your codex is potentially around the corner, at least, Dearth Guards is. I don't want to rush into anything.

I'm think a lord, definitely some cultists, they scream grim dark, but what else could I include?


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#2
WarriorFish

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I don't think grim dark is very good visual descriptor, aside from sticking skulls on everything (and spikes)? tongue.png

 

If you want villainous opposites, Word Bearers seem like they fit the bill? Dastardly scheming away and summoning daemons (along with general CSM mischief), a nice deep red scheme and use of cultists - they should be a great foil to your Grey Knights. You could come up with some narrative hooks for the games easily too to help introduce people to the wider hobby smile.png

 

As for wider list concerns, I feel that is a deeper discussion that probably needs you to settle on the army first. For example taking daemonic units (e.g. Oblits) isn't something they'd be able to do too much as GK get their bonuses against such units.


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In the grim predictability of online 40k, there can be only Sun Tzu quotes

SM Ironclad | IG Stormies | =][= Stormies | AM Armigers

CSM Terminators | TSons Rubrics | Daemons Daemonettes

DE Warriors | Tyranids Genestealers


#3
Reskin

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I don't think grim dark is very good visual descriptor, aside from sticking skulls on everything (and spikes)? tongue.png

 

If you want villainous opposites, Word Bearers seem like they fit the bill? Dastardly scheming away and summoning daemons (along with general CSM mischief), a nice deep red scheme and use of cultists - they should be a great foil to your Grey Knights. You could come up with some narrative hooks for the games easily too to help introduce people to the wider hobby smile.png

 

As for wider list concerns, I feel that is a deeper discussion that probably needs you to settle on the army first. For example taking daemonic units (e.g. Oblits) isn't something they'd be able to do too much as GK get their bonuses against such units.

 

Actually completely forgot about those evil bastards! They started all this shenanigan's way back!  I'm liking that suggestion.


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#4
WrathOfTheLion

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Word Bearers are a fantastic choice for that. The old FW paints are now part of the citadel colour line too, really love using the Gal Vorbak red for that real deep burgundy/wine colour for the WB armour.

 

An example:

 

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Edited by WrathOfTheLion, 20 October 2020 - 01:15 PM.

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#5
Reskin

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I've been browsing the heretic threads for WIP's and MaliGn's Word Bearers and Johanhgg's World Eaters look stunning! Both are fantastically sadistic and downright evil in their own rights. I cant decide, but I'll be stealing their paint schemes when I do!

Tzen has confirmed my new appreciation for the Word Bearers.

I hearing exactly what you're saying WrathOfTheLion, that looks dark and evil without even trying to hard.

That's my gripe with some of the sculpts and colour schemes for some of the heretic arstartes chapters, I feel they try too hard. But I'm feeling inspired by all the WB pics


Edited by Reskin, 20 October 2020 - 01:43 PM.

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#6
Jings

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Any paint scheme is grimdark with enough Agrax Earthshade and Nuln Oil. 

 

Word Bearers or Thousand Sons seem a natural counterpart to Grey Knights. Daemon worshipping zealots or evil nerds seem a strong thematic match for GK zealous nerds. 


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#7
MetalMammoth

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Yyyyeah, except the Grey Knights aren't noble in the least. They do terrible things, by necessity.

 

And "grim dark" is just two words used to describe the "all is death, all is hopeless" setting of 40k. -The whole setting;

 

The Imperium is grimdark because it spends the lives of it's subjects en masse so that the majority might live another day. The Guard is grimdark because it sends soldiers to their deaths in droves, regular men and women fighting with regular tools against nightmarish monsters from beyond the stars.

 

The proud Astartes are grimdark because they are taken as children, get tortured, vivisected and reassembled until they become nigh-invincible killingmachines, devoid of humanity.

 

Even the Tau with their seemingly lofty greater good are grimdark, because of the incredible level of oppression and subtle mind-control going on in their empire.

 

Everyone is grimdark.

 

Asking what's the most grimdark CSM warband is like asking which part of the ocean is the most wet.

Just pick one you like by theme or colour scheme.


Edited by MetalMammoth, 25 October 2020 - 08:18 PM.

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#8
WrathOfTheLion

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@MetalMammoth Being pedantic isn't really all that helpful, everyone else knew what Reskin was trying to ask.

 

@Reskin Yes, you can get a scheme going really easy. Gal Vorbak red gives that dark wine red base coat, then leadbelcher/silver trim and nuln oil recess shade on armour and shade on the trim. Cloth can be easily done with mech standard grey basecoat, and basilicanum grey contrast paint.

 

The darker red is a newer paint, so unfortunately the 40k studio WB don't use it, going a bit bright for my tastes.


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#9
Reskin

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Yyyyeah, except the Grey Knights aren't noble in the least. They do terribly things, by necessity.

 

I don't like the heresy coming out of your filthy mouth! You take that back!

 

And "grim dark" is just two words used to describe the "all is death, all is hopeless" setting of 40k. -The whole setting;

 

The Imperium is grimdark because it spends the lives of it's subjects en masse so that the majority might live another day. The Guard is grimdark because it sends soldiers to their deaths in droves, regular men and women fighting with regular tools against nightmarish monsters from beyond the stars.

 

The proud Astartes are grimdark because they are taken as children, get tortured, vivisected and reassembled until they become nigh-invincible killingmachines, devoid of humanity.

 

Even the Tau with their seemingly lofty greater good are grimdark, because of the incredible level of oppression and subtle mind-control going on in their empire.
You mean communists?

 

Everyone is grimdark.

 

Asking what's the most grimdark CSM warband is like asking which part of the ocean is the most wet.

Just pick one you like by theme or colour scheme.

I think you missed the main question directed at the CSM players. 
To clarify, which CSM legion Look grim dark, or regardless of legion, what colour themes feel grim dark.

 

Cheers for the response though.


Edited by Reskin, 20 October 2020 - 02:31 PM.

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#10
Gederas

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I mean, if we want to go "polar opposites" of Grey Knights, then Night Lords are that.

 

Nihilistic and morose, they only do what they have to do to survive and at the same time, butcher and slaughter for giggles.

 

Unlike the Grey Knights, who butcher and slaughter because "they saw us/daemons"*

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also regarding your comment on the Tau: They have a caste system. Because of that they literally can't be communists :lol:

*Months of Shame anyone?


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#11
WrathOfTheLion

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Don't really agree, NL are not really polar opposites of GK. GK are anti-daemon psykers, any polar opposite would naturally have an affinity for Daemonic magic and summoning.


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#12
Gederas

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Don't really agree, NL are not really polar opposites of GK. GK are anti-daemon psykers, any polar opposite would naturally have an affinity for Daemonic magic and summoning.

Was referring to personality/mindset opposites, not Modus Operandi

 

MO wise, yeah, it's Word Bearers. But personality-wise?

It's Night Lords


Edited by Gederas, 20 October 2020 - 02:48 PM.

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#13
Reskin

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I got the meaning you intended, but regardless, I'm not a fan of the night lord themed models or accessories. They look cartoony to me, and the traditional blue and red and bright gold are just too colourful to be evil.*

 

*my subjective opinion of course.

On that top, not sure I like the emperors children theme either, or the slannesh models, trying to hard to feel like hentai tentacles.

The pink/purple theme of slannesh is different enough for it feel vile though, I'm just not a fan of tentacles. 


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#14
Closet Skeleton

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I'd probably say Emperor's Children are the least like GK of the traitor legions. Otherwise World Eaters since they have no psykers.

 

I still associate the term 'grim dark' with when it had pride and place on the 2nd edition box set cover so colour pallet wise it would be very bright.

 

Chaos is a pretty flamboyant faction really with even the most milataristic traitor (Iron Warriors) having those yellow stripes. The grimiest and moodiest no fun allowed chaos marines are probably The Purge.


Edited by Closet Skeleton, 20 October 2020 - 02:56 PM.

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#15
Daemon Prince Marbas

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I'm going to side with Gederas on this one. Sure, in terms of modus operandi, Word Bearers would be a great contrast and very fascinating opponent for the Grey Knights. However, in terms of the spirit of the army, Night Lords are everything the Grey Knights aren't. The Grey Knights kill civilians for a reason, the Night Lords do it for :cusss and giggles. The Grey Knights are devout in the worship of the God-Emperor of Mankind whereas the Night Lords are nihilists with no sacred creed. To answer the OP's question I would also argue that Night Lords are the most grimdark looking not just because of their dark color scheme and lightning but because of the fact they literally wear human flesh, blood, and body parts on their armor as a means to terrify their enemy. Also, Night Lords do summon Chaos Daemons on occasion and have sorcerers so they could still be a good contrast to the Grey Knights on the tabletop.
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#16
Gederas

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They look cartoony to me, and the traditional blue and red and bright gold are just too colourful to be evil.*

 

*my subjective opinion of course.

U wot m8?

KRwkjlg.jpg

WCraOIH.jpg

 

 

I'm going to side with Gederas on this one. Sure, in terms of modus operandi, Word Bearers would be a great contrast and very fascinating opponent for the Grey Knights. However, in terms of the spirit of the army, Night Lords are everything the Grey Knights aren't. The Grey Knights kill civilians for a reason, the Night Lords do it for :cusss and giggles. The Grey Knights are devout in the worship of the God-Emperor of Mankind whereas the Night Lords are nihilists with no sacred creed. To answer the OP's question I would also argue that Night Lords are the most grimdark looking not just because of their dark color scheme and lightning but because of the fact they literally wear human flesh, blood, and body parts on their armor as a means to terrify their enemy. Also, Night Lords do summon Chaos Daemons on occasion and have sorcerers so they could still be a good contrast to the Grey Knights on the tabletop.

Also, this.


Edited by Gederas, 20 October 2020 - 03:02 PM.


#17
Daemon Prince Marbas

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Another idea I have OP is you could do The Invocators. They are a beautiful, shiny Renegade Chapter whose primary tactic in battlw is daemon summoning. So, picture this, if you want to have a game between the two sometime or even just display them you'd have two shiny, beautiful armies, one of which is a fanatical second founding chapter that specializes in daemon hunting while the other is a fanatical renegade not traitor legion force that specializes in summoning. It'd be perfect. They literally are antithetical and on top of that I'm sure they've fought in lore before at some point. There's no way they haven't.

#18
Reskin

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I'm going to side with Gederas on this one. Sure, in terms of modus operandi, Word Bearers would be a great contrast and very fascinating opponent for the Grey Knights. However, in terms of the spirit of the army, Night Lords are everything the Grey Knights aren't. The Grey Knights kill civilians for a reason, the Night Lords do it for :cusss and giggles. The Grey Knights are devout in the worship of the God-Emperor of Mankind whereas the Night Lords are nihilists with no sacred creed. To answer the OP's question I would also argue that Night Lords are the most grimdark looking not just because of their dark color scheme and lightning but because of the fact they literally wear human flesh, blood, and body parts on their armor as a means to terrify their enemy. Also, Night Lords do summon Chaos Daemons on occasion and have sorcerers so they could still be a good contrast to the Grey Knights on the tabletop.

I looked at some NL WIPS and pics on the forums here, and on GW's website with their accessories. Perhaps it was the traditional colour scheme that threw me off.

I'm a pure GK player, the heresy of the CSM is sealed by runes and sigils and locked away in the vaults of Titan. I really don't know much about them.

Hence why I started this thread, perhaps my unwavering faith is bending. Perhaps I'm testing my stalwart faith in the Emperor tongue.png

In all seriousness though, WrathoftheLion, has had some fantastic input, and really helped a lot. And like I mentioned earlier, some of the paint threads I've found have really opened my eyes to how cool some of the models can look.

I'm still open to visual suggestions for other Heretic lesions though. Regardless, everyone's opinion is valid.

Personally, I wanna keep it dark, no bright metals, and colour palettes really have to gel.

Edit: I didn't see those pics you posted before I posted this reply Gederas! Those look absolutely stunning! (Apparently I've ran out of positive votes for the day, so I cant like your post sad.png)


Edited by Reskin, 20 October 2020 - 03:14 PM.

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#19
Irate Khornate

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I think the Legion of the word bearers might be the direction you are looking for. Completely opposite modus operandi, a dark scheme that can be made darker with a heresy era paint scheme, viable access to each mark of chaos fluff and competitive, a focus on daemon units allows a quick indulgence buy on 3 of their starter kits, Possessed are on the block for being the next updated chaos unit, and some of THE strongest non special character HQ options in chaos right now.

As for purchases, chaos cultists and the starter box are good places to start. Maybe even ebay a havoc sarge and a few bits for a non tubular chaos lord.

#20
McElMcNinja

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My bias opinion would be Death Guard, quiet the opposite of the pristine GK. Mechanics wise, their DR is very useful against all their bolter fire. DG like to use spells to enhance their units. Useful with Daemon support. Plus they should have a codex out soon, I think having updated rules would be nice when working to bring new players in.

Edited by McElMcNinja, 20 October 2020 - 04:12 PM.

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#21
MetalMammoth

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Yyyyeah, except the Grey Knights aren't noble in the least. They do terribly things, by necessity.


 

I don't like the heresy coming out of your filthy mouth! You take that back!

 

Oh go and have your servants kidnap and ritualistically murder a good man so they might consecrate a single one of your bolt shells in his blood.


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#22
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Sadly any Slaanesh force is hampered by the fact that a tabletop game could never hope to represent just how potent and dangerous obsessions are, let alone how Slaanesh is constantly moving goals constantly just out of reach to test your morality on how far you will go. How far down that rabbit hole will a person dive into obsession and depravity.

Slaanesh is so much more than hentai tentacles and Marines with boobs. If you really think on it too much you may as well be reading Clive Barker and about human psychology. But that doesn't translate to the table.


Night Lords are also really dark. Or at least parts of it are seeing that it is pretty fragmented. Made up of murderers and other hard criminals. Terror tactics and psychological warfare coupled with overwhelming and devastating but targeted attacks to cause the most panic. But sadly again... not translatable to the tabletop.

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#23
Dr_Ruminahui

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As for what chaos army looks the most grimdark, it would depend on the exact scheme but I would say it is a tie between black legion with lots of spikes and skulls, and a more subdued paint scheme for night lords with lots of flayed skin and dismembered body parts.

 

That said, story-wise I think Word Bearers make the best match.  Sure, your grey knights could well be hunting down psychopathic murderers, but for the purpose of a compelling narrative its a better opposing force for your grey knights if those murders are not the goal but serve some greater and darker cause.

 

After all, if you are painting (figuratively) your grey knights as the shining (again figuratively) defenders of humanity who are the only ones who stand between the forces of chaos and the utter damnation of humanity, it is a better chaos foil to have the Word Bearers, a legion whose very purpose is the damnation of humanity, who freely implement demons the very force that the grey knights were formed to vanquish.

 

So, sure, you could have your grey knights trying to stop the night lords from killing a bunch of people because they are evil and bad and want to scare people... but really, doesn't it make a better story for your grey knights trying to stop the word bearers from killing a bunch of people because they are evil and bad and the murders will open a daemonic gate that will flood the planet with daemons, damning everyone left on the planet and weakening the veil between real space and the warp for the entire subsector?

 

Now, that's not to say that the night lords might not be involved in such a plot, but it is a more natural fit for the word bearers as it is kind of their thing.

 

Incidentally, if you want to see more excellent word bearers, I would recommend this thread (disclamer: not my work) http://www.bolterand...rd-bearers-log/


Edited by Dr_Ruminahui, 20 October 2020 - 11:48 PM.

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#24
Reskin

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My bias opinion would be Death Guard, quiet the opposite of the pristine GK. Mechanics wise, their DR is very useful against all their bolter fire. DG like to use spells to enhance their units. Useful with Daemon support. Plus they should have a codex out soon, I think having updated rules would be nice when working to bring new players in.

 

Death guard were another interesting option, I like their sculpts. Perhaps an alternative colour scheme would spark a bit more interest. Not to take away from their traditional schemes, they look amazing.

 

 

I think what Dr_Ruminahui mentioned was also on point. I'm liking the WB's more and more. That thread was also superbly painted. 

I think, once I commence this little project, I'll really have to expand my skills, and the dark red/burgundy and dark metals, translate well from the opposite of my GK's. Brighter silvers and golds, and brighter reds on weapons and such. Cleaner looking models.

If I keep the WB darker, and experiment with some blood splatter effects like on Johanhgg's World Eaters. Or blood pooling on the bases of Tzen's and MaliGn's Word Bearers, I think I'll be doing ok.


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#25
Reskin

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Found this guy on insta... I can't find any more descriptive words to describe his level of skill.

 

Here is his take on Abbadon and here is a World Eater I believe.


Edited by Reskin, 21 October 2020 - 03:49 AM.

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