Possible changes in the new codex.

[Plaguecaster]

 

 

I'm extremely confused about the wording tho for all the upgrades though so am I right s

With this

Champion can take a plasma gun, squad can take a blight launcher, can take another if 10man. I can then take an additional plasma gun for every 5 models so ten man would be 2 plasma guns. Does this mean in a 10man squad we can take 3 plasma guns and 2 blight launchers?

Yep, that's correct

That's pretty cool something I guess, still feels wrong as I only ran 7 man squads for fluff reasons

 

Extremely disappointed the LoV doesn't actually buff daemon engines like GW lied to us about especially since there is now no way any of our daemon engines or the like can actually benefit from any of our auras glad I didn't pick him up.

 

Also the fact Deathshroud lost their bodyguard rules is pretty damn annoying especially since that was the whole gimmick of the unit guess they don't want us protecting morty anymore since that was the whole point of the unit, I will still be taking one unit to protect my plague caster warlord though.

[Dragonlover]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

First off, no more 'well three combiplas is the best loadout but I only get one, time to somehow acquire two more when every other player is doing the same thing so it's bloody impossible' type issues.

 

Secondly you buy a box of guys, you can play the box of guys with what comes in the box of guys, and not be at a disadvantage against the people that have been playing for 30 years and never thrown a bit away. Massive boon to new players. I appreciate that this doesn't quite line up on a Plague Marine squad since they come in sevens, but the concept is sound.

 

Thirdly, it just makes sense. You want to get your stuff from sprue to table as efficiently as possible, and scrounging up the extras is just a lot of needless faff that I suspect a lot of folks just never went through and said 'ignore the weapons on the models, these guys all have combiplasmas' every game. At that point, may as well just remove the option, which among other things cuts down on memory issues for your opponent, because in theory everything in your army is WYSIWYG.

 

------------

 

On the codex itself, I'm looking forward to it. Gonna be my first proper foray into Death Guard outside of Dark Imperium demo games, and it looks like there's gonna be a lot of dials to tweak. Particularly a fan of the Foetid Virion, multiple Elites per slot is a really cool thing that they need to keep doing.

 

Dragonlover

[USNCenturion]

The deathshroud thing is annoying, and I’m with you on the squads of 7; but to get things sometimes you have to give other things up. Morty would be too busted if he could also have meatshields in terminator armor at a 4++, and would have been complained about and nerfed before long. As you said in regards to our PM squads, they can only be built as packaged technically, but they got so many new rules and can have a plethora of choices now that were not being used before; I’m gonna throw plague spewers in there now for sure.

 

Some of the things we had and lost, and some of the things we wanted and didn’t get are annoying, but if you’re not seeing the good past these few necessary bads, then you’re only going to drive yourself nuts. Every army is going to lose things and gain things, some of which are faction defining.

 

We got a good toolbox to work out of, and there are no real glaring issues that people can complain about and have nerfed months down the line. Nothing in this book is “garbage” unless you had unrealistic expectations of a 40K army going into it. Take the new options as a challenge and something to look forward to for the next few months and years.

 

Also, we don’t know what’s coming in the campaign book later this year with as far as rules are concerned...

[Squark]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

[Marshal Loss]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices. I'd have much preferred to see this be the policy for subsequent kits (e.g. EC come out with a new Terminator unit of their own where every option is accounted for in the kit) than have it invalidate some of my decisions, leaving dozens of models effectively unplayable. It's also not consistently enforced: Blightlords only have 3 swords in the box, yet the unit can have 5 as part of their stock standard loadout. If they're going to stick with this policy, then it should be applied consistently.

 

As a change for future kits, I'm 100% for it.

 

Also, we don’t know what’s coming in the campaign book later this year with as far as rules are concerned...

 

A good point! Considering it's meant to represent Typhus' forces, there could be some real treats in there. Wasn't thrilled with the idea of a supplement following a codex so closely but given that this book doesn't have any obvious or gaping flaws, bring it on

 

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

Daemon Princes do have "Lord of the Death Guard".

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Vardus]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

 

Don't have the codex but reviews I have seen/read say that they are.

[Plaguecaster]

Question for those of you who have an early codex or have seen pictures of the datasheets; Do Demon Princes have the "Lord of the Death Guard" keyword (Meaning you can't take one alongside a Chaos Lord)?

Only thing in our hq section that doesn't have it are plague casters and sorcerers in terminator Armour. Really wish we could've took a elite character as hq even if it was with a cp stratagem our elves section is over bloated with options whilst our hq is now severely limited

[firestorm40k]

Quick question for those in the know (e.g. with access to the Codex already :lol:) - can you have a special weapon (e.g. Plasma gun) AND a cc weapon (e.g. Plague Flail) in a 7 strong unit Plague Marine squad?

 

If not, I've just wasted that box of Plague Marines I've just built...

[Marshal Loss]

Quick question for those in the know (e.g. with access to the Codex already ) - can you have a special weapon (e.g. Plasma gun) AND a cc weapon (e.g. Plague Flail) in a 7 strong unit Plague Marine squad?

 

If not, I've just wasted that box of Plague Marines I've just built...

Yep, no problem (so long as it isn't a single marine trying to carry both a flail & a plasma gun :P)

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[BrainFireBob]

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

First off, no more 'well three combiplas is the best loadout but I only get one, time to somehow acquire two more when every other player is doing the same thing so it's bloody impossible' type issues.

 

Secondly you buy a box of guys, you can play the box of guys with what comes in the box of guys, and not be at a disadvantage against the people that have been playing for 30 years and never thrown a bit away. Massive boon to new players. I appreciate that this doesn't quite line up on a Plague Marine squad since they come in sevens, but the concept is sound.

 

Thirdly, it just makes sense. You want to get your stuff from sprue to table as efficiently as possible, and scrounging up the extras is just a lot of needless faff that I suspect a lot of folks just never went through and said 'ignore the weapons on the models, these guys all have combiplasmas' every game. At that point, may as well just remove the option, which among other things cuts down on memory issues for your opponent, because in theory everything in your army is WYSIWYG.

 

------------

 

On the codex itself, I'm looking forward to it. Gonna be my first proper foray into Death Guard outside of Dark Imperium demo games, and it looks like there's gonna be a lot of dials to tweak. Particularly a fan of the Foetid Virion, multiple Elites per slot is a really cool thing that they need to keep doing.

 

Dragonlover

Two problems here: For being able to play "out of the box," what is in the box has to be worthwhile to field the unit. Not a problem with Blightlords, but not universally true.

 

Second: it's those 30 year vets you are scorning for not tossing bits- that have the bits to rip apart their existing models and give them the new restricted loadout. Sold your extra bits? You are paying through the nose, or buying a new fresh box.

 

EDIT: I should note I'm one, and just reorganized my bits, so will be giving my Blightlords combibolters again. My CSM will be massively more problematic, though.

 

Players without my bits box are in trouble, though

Edited January 16, 2021 by BrainFireBob

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

It's possible also to have an insane amount of special weapons in a PM squad; you could, in a 10 man squad, have e.g. a plasma gun on a champ, 2x blight launchers, a plague spewer, and 2x plasma guns.

 

So the changes to loadouts hurt PM players who wanted to spam axes or dual knives, and Blightlord players who took lots of combi-weapons, but it's not wholly negative: lots of incentive to take a 10 man squad now.

 

7 man or bust! I can't bring myself to take 10, it just feels so wrong.

 

Even if it's just the melee options for PM that are hurt, it still feels crappy. Melee PM squads were something interesting and new and it'll be a shame if they're restricted to the point you stop seeing them. That said I haven't seen the exact restrictions yet so maybe it's not as bad as I fear. It certainly doesn't sound as bad as the awful Karadron "You must take one of each of these completely different weapons in the squad" debacle.

 

I like the rest of what I've seen of the Codex though, so I feel positive overall.

 

 

Im just not a GW fan boy praising everything they do even if its a pile of garbage.

Some of the things coming out of people is laughable. Take the plague surgeon, SM does exactly the same thing and nobody takes him for his crappy 6+++, they take him because he can bring back a model, yet youtubers etc are going how amazing he is because he gives a 6+++

Its very frustrating when you pay 100s of £ to play a army because you like how they play and then GW decide to all over it.

 

There are 3 things in this codex that are good: Mortarion, +1 wound to marines, and the contagion ability...thats it.

If i had the choice of playing this codex or the old one I would undoutably play the old one.

DR got nerfed, HQs got nerfed, Arch contaminator nerfed, Strats got all over.

 

My main opponents are SM (white scars and blood angles), Admech, and chaos. The chaos player has 3 decimators which do mortal wounds, 12W with a 4++. On average they wipe out 10 Blight lord terminators. The admech guy has 5 of those robots which put out a load of shots. Just how exactly are you supposed to kill them? 

 

I am all up for being +ve but just what are you seeing that makes you go oh wow thats cool (other than mortarion).

 

I am seriosly trying to be +ve but every time i look im just like golly gee were GW thinking.

At 1st i thought ok take a LoC with arch contaminator and deepstrike in 10 BL terminators with combi bolters and use the strats for rapid fire 3, plague weapons, hit on 2s, VotLW. with 6s being AP-4...then i realised rapid fire 3 strat has gone. Ok, thats still 40 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding most vehicles on 4s (re-rolling), for an average of 30 wounds, 10 of which are at AP-4, ok i will take that. Oh but then i realised that the AP-4 is for combat only, So in the end, over 500 points kills 5 marines in shooting.  For half the points, i can take a CSM terminator squad, and put out 40 S8 AP-3 D2 shots....and CSM are supposed to be bad lol

 

 

I think this mindset is the same as the 8th ed to 9th Necron naysayers. You're seeing changes and having a kneejerk reaction to that. That's totally fine and you're allowed to not like how an army changes, but I do think you're missing the majority of the positives.

 

This book fundamentally changes how this army functions, plays, is built even down to how it moves. It's going to take a lot of effort to relearn and master again. We had a bottom tier rigid codex for more than 3 years at this point, change is going to be weird

[Dragonlover]

 

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices.

 

So do many other things in a new codex. A previously ubiquitous piece of wargear increasing in points to the level of non-viability would also impact people's assembly choices.

 

 

Two problems here: For being able to play "out of the box," what is in the box has to be worthwhile to field the unit. Not a problem with Blightlords, but not universally true.

 

Second: it's those 30 year vets you are scorning for not tossing bits- that have the bits to rip apart their existing models and give them the new restricted loadout. Sold your extra bits? You are paying through the nose, or buying a new fresh box.

 

EDIT: I should note I'm one, and just reorganized my bits, so will be giving my Blightlords combibolters again. My CSM will be massively more problematic, though.

 

Players without my bits box are in trouble, though

 

 

Yeah I've been around for 20-odd years myself, and still struggle to produce enough combis. Pretty sure my solution was HH packs of five of each last time I needed to do it. I wasn't scorning the hoary old veterans at all, merely pointing out that it levels the playing field a bit. Also it's not like the best loadout within the constraints on any given unit won't be found withing about an hour of the internet turning their collective gaze on the problem. There'll always be something worthwhile, even if it is just 2 plasmas backed up with a hail of bolter fire from a mid-table Plague Marine Squad or two.

 

-----------

 

Something else that intrigues me is the option of giving relics to unit champions. Is this a new thing for us or can the current Marine book do it? I'm massively out of the loop.

 

Dragonlover

[Cryptix]

I believe current space marines can give special issues relics (the ones that all successors can take) to sergeants.

[Marshal Loss]

 

 

In defence of the 'options are what comes in the box' method:

 

You're totally correct on every point but it doesn't change the fact that it retroactively impacts people's assembly choices.

 

So do many other things in a new codex. A previously ubiquitous piece of wargear increasing in points to the level of non-viability would also impact people's assembly choices.

 

Point taken, but something no longer being a popular choice & a loadout being literally invalidated are two very, very different things. Option A still lets me use my models; option B forces me to either tear them apart or obtain 40 extra Blightlords to field what was previously a single 10 man squad. To imply otherwise would be incredibly disingenuous.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Plaguecaster]

What about Helbrutes are they core or do they get DR, I've heard our daemon engines and vehicles don't but don't know if true or not

[jgascoine011]

 

 

 

It's possible also to have an insane amount of special weapons in a PM squad; you could, in a 10 man squad, have e.g. a plasma gun on a champ, 2x blight launchers, a plague spewer, and 2x plasma guns.

 

So the changes to loadouts hurt PM players who wanted to spam axes or dual knives, and Blightlord players who took lots of combi-weapons, but it's not wholly negative: lots of incentive to take a 10 man squad now.

 

7 man or bust! I can't bring myself to take 10, it just feels so wrong.

 

Even if it's just the melee options for PM that are hurt, it still feels crappy. Melee PM squads were something interesting and new and it'll be a shame if they're restricted to the point you stop seeing them. That said I haven't seen the exact restrictions yet so maybe it's not as bad as I fear. It certainly doesn't sound as bad as the awful Karadron "You must take one of each of these completely different weapons in the squad" debacle.

 

I like the rest of what I've seen of the Codex though, so I feel positive overall.

 

 

Im just not a GW fan boy praising everything they do even if its a pile of garbage.

Some of the things coming out of people is laughable. Take the plague surgeon, SM does exactly the same thing and nobody takes him for his crappy 6+++, they take him because he can bring back a model, yet youtubers etc are going how amazing he is because he gives a 6+++

Its very frustrating when you pay 100s of £ to play a army because you like how they play and then GW decide to all over it.

 

There are 3 things in this codex that are good: Mortarion, +1 wound to marines, and the contagion ability...thats it.

If i had the choice of playing this codex or the old one I would undoutably play the old one.

DR got nerfed, HQs got nerfed, Arch contaminator nerfed, Strats got all over.

 

My main opponents are SM (white scars and blood angles), Admech, and chaos. The chaos player has 3 decimators which do mortal wounds, 12W with a 4++. On average they wipe out 10 Blight lord terminators. The admech guy has 5 of those robots which put out a load of shots. Just how exactly are you supposed to kill them? 

 

I am all up for being +ve but just what are you seeing that makes you go oh wow thats cool (other than mortarion).

 

I am seriosly trying to be +ve but every time i look im just like golly gee were GW thinking.

At 1st i thought ok take a LoC with arch contaminator and deepstrike in 10 BL terminators with combi bolters and use the strats for rapid fire 3, plague weapons, hit on 2s, VotLW. with 6s being AP-4...then i realised rapid fire 3 strat has gone. Ok, thats still 40 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding most vehicles on 4s (re-rolling), for an average of 30 wounds, 10 of which are at AP-4, ok i will take that. Oh but then i realised that the AP-4 is for combat only, So in the end, over 500 points kills 5 marines in shooting.  For half the points, i can take a CSM terminator squad, and put out 40 S8 AP-3 D2 shots....and CSM are supposed to be bad lol

 

 

I think this mindset is the same as the 8th ed to 9th Necron naysayers. You're seeing changes and having a kneejerk reaction to that. That's totally fine and you're allowed to not like how an army changes, but I do think you're missing the majority of the positives.

 

This book fundamentally changes how this army functions, plays, is built even down to how it moves. It's going to take a lot of effort to relearn and master again. We had a bottom tier rigid codex for more than 3 years at this point, change is going to be weird

 

 

A lot of the necron player points were valid in the end though. Nobody was saying it was a bad codex, just that you had good units (void dragon, night bringer, silent king, lynch guard etc) but the book had increadibly dumb rules (command protocals, and various seemling abrituary interactions between characters and units, along with a whole bunch of pointless crap such as the reaminator and plas/psychomancer).

 

My problem with deathguard is that they have given is 0 options really. My main gripe with 8th DG codex was the requirement to take grenade guy and toss grenades all over the place because it was DGs only real way to deal with knights. Then you always saw a daemon prince with arch contaminator because you needed the re-rolls to wound and the mobility he supplied. The grenade thing i thought was super cool, fluffy and unique. It was super hard to pull off (espeically before PA) but when you did it was hilarious.

Well they took the grenades away, but what did they give in return? Just what are DG players plans to deal with paladins, jetbike custodies, etc?

 

And then there is my main gripe with the codex. The rules are just so dumb. 

1) WLT. Some of them are super cool....but every time people will take arch contaminator even with the nerf because it is just needed to much.

2) The HQ limitation is just stupid, I kind of get it but really, you couldnt have made the virulence guy more of a lientenant?

3) The special weapons on PM nerf. So my time spent converting units to have 2 blight launchers is met with a massive :cuss you by GW because they cant be arsed to just put out a special weapon teams box.

4) I already hate the stupid Core rule. It seems like a stupid limitation put in because SM had a chapter master running around with devistator centurions and now punishing all the other codex's because of it. However, if it is here, then why are nurgle daemon engines not core!!!!! A redemptor dread can be core but not a PBC...riiight.

5) What exactly are deathguard supposed to be? We have a short range aura giving -1T to a maximum of 12" range, but out legion trait benefits us from being more than 12" away. We have a rule that allows us to ignore penatlies for charging but then no actuall way to decrease charge range, so once again, terminators become a thing of "can you roll a 9+" so will be amazing in 1 out of 3 games and total :cuss the rest of the time. And finally our daemon engines ignore the pently for firing heavy weapons into combat but the blight drone ignores it anyway, and the PBC is armed with a blast weapon and then either 2 lascannons or heavy flamers. One ignores the penatly anyway and the other is not much use.

6) Nurglings, with the actual rule called squishable, are more resilient to D1 weapons than DG which is just hilarious.

7) DG have 0 mortal wound defence now.

8) And finally, why is it, that all the new codex's (especially SM) have rules applied to their whole army, but once again, a rhino etc does not get DG!!!!!! Why is a iron hands dread/rhino more survivable than a DG one? Why am I paying CP to once again give a unit something they should already have?

[Marshal Loss]

What about Helbrutes are they core or do they get DR, I've heard our daemon engines and vehicles don't but don't know if true or not

 

Helbrute is Core and does not get DR (but does get -1 to wound from another source, Monstrous Resilience). None of our Daemon Engines have Core. PBC, FBD, and MBH all have DR. Rhinos/Predators/Land Raiders/Defilers do not.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Marshal Loss

[Marshal Valkenhayn]

It is difficult for me to understand how anyone could look at this book and not see how DG would deal with the Custodes of all factions. They're the hardest counter to the boys in gold that I've ever seen. All of the 2 damage master crafted shots will wound on 5+ and have their damage halved, and the entire Custodes faction has access to like 4 melee weapons that aren't damage d3, with 3 of them being on dreads. DG has the -1 toughness aura and plenty of ways to increase str to 5 or higher, good access to wound rolls, good access to just the right amount of AP to get them on their invulns without wasting any, and on top of all that plentiful access to mortal wounds outside of the psychic phase.

 

I know that's just one aspect of the argument, but someone who would choose to use Custodes Bikers as an example of a unit DG would struggle with makes me honestly curious if we're reading the same book, and if we have the same fundamental understanding of the game.

[Plague _Lord]

The plague marine loadouts are a mess. Specifically not being able to go double knife. I think most of my squads will be 10 man with 3 plasma and 2 launchers in each.

 

Though thats probably close to 300pts after upgrades...

[TrawlingCleaner]

 

 

 

A lot of the necron player points were valid in the end though. Nobody was saying it was a bad codex, just that you had good units (void dragon, night bringer, silent king, lynch guard etc) but the book had increadibly dumb rules (command protocals, and various seemling abrituary interactions between characters and units, along with a whole bunch of pointless crap such as the reaminator and plas/psychomancer).

 

My problem with deathguard is that they have given is 0 options really. My main gripe with 8th DG codex was the requirement to take grenade guy and toss grenades all over the place because it was DGs only real way to deal with knights. Then you always saw a daemon prince with arch contaminator because you needed the re-rolls to wound and the mobility he supplied. The grenade thing i thought was super cool, fluffy and unique. It was super hard to pull off (espeically before PA) but when you did it was hilarious.

Well they took the grenades away, but what did they give in return? Just what are DG players plans to deal with paladins, jetbike custodies, etc?

 

And then there is my main gripe with the codex. The rules are just so dumb. 

1) WLT. Some of them are super cool....but every time people will take arch contaminator even with the nerf because it is just needed to much.

2) The HQ limitation is just stupid, I kind of get it but really, you couldnt have made the virulence guy more of a lientenant?

3) The special weapons on PM nerf. So my time spent converting units to have 2 blight launchers is met with a massive you by GW because they cant be arsed to just put out a special weapon teams box.

4) I already hate the stupid Core rule. It seems like a stupid limitation put in because SM had a chapter master running around with devistator centurions and now punishing all the other codex's because of it. However, if it is here, then why are nurgle daemon engines not core!!!!! A redemptor dread can be core but not a PBC...riiight.

5) What exactly are deathguard supposed to be? We have a short range aura giving -1T to a maximum of 12" range, but out legion trait benefits us from being more than 12" away. We have a rule that allows us to ignore penatlies for charging but then no actuall way to decrease charge range, so once again, terminators become a thing of "can you roll a 9+" so will be amazing in 1 out of 3 games and total the rest of the time. And finally our daemon engines ignore the pently for firing heavy weapons into combat but the blight drone ignores it anyway, and the PBC is armed with a blast weapon and then either 2 lascannons or heavy flamers. One ignores the penatly anyway and the other is not much use.

6) Nurglings, with the actual rule called squishable, are more resilient to D1 weapons than DG which is just hilarious.

7) DG have 0 mortal wound defence now.

8) And finally, why is it, that all the new codex's (especially SM) have rules applied to their whole army, but once again, a rhino etc does not get DG!!!!!! Why is a iron hands dread/rhino more survivable than a DG one? Why am I paying CP to once again give a unit something they should already have?

 

 

I can't disagree more on the options front, even with PA we now have so many more options that we never had. The new codex and edition is not about doing huge spikes of damage to wipe a big unit away, it's about staying power and wearing the opponent down. If you've seen the Tabletop Tactic video the DG player has 10 Blightlords on a flank with some plaguemarines and a Surgeon, at the end of the game he still has 6 Blightlords and the Surgeon alive after (IIRC) 4/5 rounds of combat with a Redemptor, Vitrix Guard and Guilliman all of which were dead at the end of the game.

 

We have good stratagem support that goes further than "do the Mortal Wound thing", secondary missions that reward you for playing to DG strengths, Contagions that are increidble, Elite characters that are actually useful, cool and fluffy Relics. The book is fundamentally different, it has it's issues for sure but damn is it so much better than the 8th book and I couldn't be happier

[Marshal Loss]

I'm having a lot of trouble trying to make lists. So many things I want to put in them. :P

[jgascoine011]

It is difficult for me to understand how anyone could look at this book and not see how DG would deal with the Custodes of all factions. They're the hardest counter to the boys in gold that I've ever seen. All of the 2 damage master crafted shots will wound on 5+ and have their damage halved, and the entire Custodes faction has access to like 4 melee weapons that aren't damage d3, with 3 of them being on dreads. DG has the -1 toughness aura and plenty of ways to increase str to 5 or higher, good access to wound rolls, good access to just the right amount of AP to get them on their invulns without wasting any, and on top of all that plentiful access to mortal wounds outside of the psychic phase.

 

I know that's just one aspect of the argument, but someone who would choose to use Custodes Bikers as an example of a unit DG would struggle with makes me honestly curious if we're reading the same book, and if we have the same fundamental understanding of the game.

 

So PM vs Custodian Guard. 

10 PM are just over 200 points, and 4 guard with spear and SS are around 200 points.

I will be generious and say PM get to rapid fire and then charge. So thats 20 shots and 21 attacks. AP makes no difference as they have a 1+ save. If they are lucky they might, might kill 1 custodian. Custodian hit back with 9 attacks if the PM did kill 1. Again i will be generious and say that all there D3 weapons only roll a 1-4, so just do 1 damage. So thats 9 attacks, say 8 hit, 4 wounds, killing 2. The PM will then maybe do 1 wound on the following turn, and the guard will kill another 2. Guard will then kill another 2 and the PM will probably do nothing back. To be fair it is more of a slog than I was expecting but that is assuming terrible rolls by the guard and everything going right for the PM.

 

Then jet bikes vs terminators

Again I will assume the terminators go 1st, with the bikes being in a -1T aura. So 40 shots, hitting on 2s, re-rolling 1s, wounding on 4s (assuming VotlW) will do maybe 3 wounds, i will assume some other shooting goes into them and so kills of a bike, thats 4 bikes left. So terminators charge in, 30 attacks, hitting on 2s, wounding on 4s (becuase they will use transhuman) will do say 15 wounds, 7/8 failed saves, kills 1 or 2. Actually yea they do pretty good. I was actually thinking that the bikes would get the charge off (and hence kill about 5 BL, but unless you are a moron you would have the blightspawn standing with the DG making the bikes hit last.

 

Hmm thats interesting.

I am slowly coming around to the new book. The biggist thing is the foul blightspawn mittigating a lot of the negatives of the slow speed. 

[GenerationTerrorist]

The only thing I am gutted with is that my huge blob of 20 Plague Marines can no longer be taken.

 

Other than that, the Codex seems outstandingly good.

[INKS]

How many can a single unit take now? 

[Irate Khornate]

I dig the new daemon weapons on the prince.

 

I think for the most part I'll be handing my plague marines plasma guns.